Xenophobia in Discussions About Epic/Blizzard

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
?

The "Obviously not." clearly expresses that the notion of some people being naturally evil is ludicrous. So what are you asking me here?
im saying that obviously there are parallels to how white Americans and Chinese mainlanders might handwave away their governments atrocities, but it’s erroneous to characterize either as brainwashing.

obviously there is not a binary between “brainwash” and “naturally evil”. I’m saying that the phenomenon is actually “I’m doing pretty fine so it can’t be that bad/this benefits my group” which is both an active and passive decision to make. That doesn’t make one naturally evil or brainswashed, which you were alluding to in your response
 

Duane

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,823
I mean, there's a nuance to recognizing negative behavior by foreign governments but not using that as an excuse to pre judge the citizens of that country. Especially on an individual basis. Some people lack that nuance, especially younger people whose views and social skills are still developing, older people who've decided to stop evolving, and people who spend their time in less moderated spaces than this.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
Many are, many aren’t. Please stop acting like white people are a totally unified front on the issues in America or that many of us aren’t vocally against the way things are handled here
enough of you arent unified enough to dismantle racism so materially it doesn’t matter.

amazing how you get upset when I bundle you all together. It’s almost as if there’s a point to be made here
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,340
there is a lot of nuance to the reality that “epic has made/is making some anti consumer moves” and “blizzard caved to government pressure to censor an esports athlete” can also be true while stuff like “tencent, who owns relatively small minority shares in these companies, is somehow managing to exert total domineering control over them and are secretly manipulating American corps for the sake of the Chinese government” is absolutely loony vaguely racist conspiracy nonsense, but you really ought to give up on the idea that a gaming board this size is ever going to consistently be reasonable about this shit
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
enough of you arent unified enough to dismantle racism so materially it doesn’t matter.

amazing how you get upset when I bundle you all together. It’s almost as if there’s a point to be made here
I mean I don’t think all Chinese citizens buy into the CCPs bullshit, they’re just silenced and powerless. And my point on the indoctrination is that it’s far more pervasive there because of the totalitarian government than it is in the US. And the US does have plenty of it in our school systems, it’s just that it’s way easier for the shitty wrong things we’re taught like “racism is over” or “America is a heroic nation” to be challenged during our formative years before they can fully take root. And even still many people in America are brainwashed by that bullshit. I honestly believe there are many white people in america who are genuinely ignorant of the type of issues Black people in the US still face today. Now part of this is often a willful ignorance, but a big part is because it’s instilled in us as children that racism is a thing of the past, and that’s also a form of “brainwashing”
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,870
That doesn’t make one naturally evil or brainswashed, which you were alluding to in your response
No, I was not alluding to that.

The atrocious acts of the CCP include, among others, the genocide of Uighur people. If all that doesn't seem like a concern for citizens (by modern morals, obviously) then that does imply indoctrination of some sort precisely because people are not naturally evil. I'm not sure what your precise issue is but rest assured that there's certainly plenty white Americans indoctrinated, too. The Pledge of Allegiance in schools, for example, seems downright bizarre for many Europeans.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,732
I feel this topic is....not really on the mark. You posted this to gaming side, but the OP is clearly about the language used towards Chinese citizens, not about Blizzard and the CCP, and the incident with Blitzchung.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
there is a lot of nuance to the reality that “epic has made/is making some anti consumer moves” and “blizzard caved to government pressure to censor an esports athlete” can also be true while stuff like “tencent, who owns relatively small minority shares in these companies, is somehow managing to exert total domineering control over them and are secretly manipulating American corps for the sake of the Chinese government” is absolutely loony vaguely racist conspiracy nonsense, but you really ought to give up on the idea that a gaming board this size is ever going to consistently be reasonable about this shit
I thought we here were more reasonable.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
No, I was not alluding to that.

The atrocious acts of the CCP include, among others, the genocide of Uighur people. If all that doesn't seem like a concern for citizens (by modern morals, obviously) then that does imply indoctrination of some sort precisely because people are not naturally evil. I'm not sure what your precise issue is but rest assured that there's certainly plenty white Americans indoctrinated, too. The Pledge of Allegiance in schools, for example, seems downright bizarre for many Europeans.
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at as well
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
2,499
The Chinese government is taken too lightly. We are currently witnessing a mass genocide/ethnic cleansing the details of which make your skin crawl. One day we’ll look back on this with shame when the full details of just how horrific and widespread their actions have been.

This doesn’t mean I hate Chinese people but their government needs to be held to account.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
The Chinese government is taken too lightly. We are currently witnessing a mass genocide/ethnic cleansing the details of which make your skin crawl. One day we’ll look back on this with shame when the full details of just how horrific and widespread their actions have been.

This doesn’t mean I hate Chinese people but their government needs to be held to account.
Nothing I said suggested we hold the CCP to any less account.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,732
I thought we here were more reasonable.
Alright, so far I get that you are worried that the increased attention and scrutiny on this situation with Blizzard and Hong Kong and China is going to spur more racism towards ethnically Chinese people. Is it specifically the word 'brainwash' that is in contention here? Or is it more than that? I'm trying to add some clarity here because it feels like the discourse over the past page has been full of passive aggressive snark from some posters and it is muddying what I assume the topic was intended for.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
Alright, so far I get that you are worried that the increased attention and scrutiny on this situation with Blizzard and Hong Kong and China is going to spur more racism towards ethnically Chinese people. Is it specifically the word 'brainwash' that is in contention here? Or is it more than that? I'm trying to add some clarity here because it feels like the discourse over the past page has been full of passive aggressive snark from some posters and it is muddying what I assume the topic was intended for.
Not those situations. How people talk about those situations. Using phrases like brainwashing etc. But no it's moved well beyond what I originally intended. I just wanted to see if others were seeing the same trend in sweeping statements about Chinese and Asian people. I got mixed results.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
WaPo has an article using that term in relation to trump voters here which is only a week old.

There seemed to be plenty of others as well from a google search.
There’s actually a subtle but important difference between characterizing republicans/rural/poor/uneducated/trump-voting white people as a “cult” and white people as an entire *group* as a cult.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
There’s actually a subtle but important difference between characterizing republicans/rural/poor/uneducated/trump-voting white people as a “cult” and white people as an entire *group* as a cult.
I’d argue the conditions concerning diversity of thought and ideas that you see in mainland China are going to be way more similar to rural America (and probably even more extreme) than America as a whole. NOT every rural white American buys into the republican bullshit either just like not every Chinese person buys into the CCP’s bullshit
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
There’s actually a subtle but important difference between characterizing republicans/rural/poor/uneducated/trump-voting white people as a “cult” and white people as an entire *group* as a cult.
Similarly I'd argue that Chinese ethnicity isn't a singular point being singled out in siding with Hong Kong of all places against China.

I'd also not expect everyone to spell out that their complaints are specifically the policies of the CCP, those empowered to enforce those policies and and those complicit with those policies for personal benefit while pointing out their campaign of misinformation and censorship has led to a notable portion of their population accepting their policies as being for the good of their people.
 

Wumbo64

Member
Oct 27, 2017
214
In general, this is a far more nonpartisan issue. The net being cast for opinions is much wider relative to other geopolitical issues. Also given that the folks in Hong Kong are making a plea for fundamental autonomy and democracy, which is what a lot of western nations were founded on or evolved towards, more folks are poised to chime in.

However, in casting that wider net, you get the cross-section of racists who both think Chinese people are inferior and those in Hong Kong deserve justice. Steam, Reddit, 4Chan, and YouTube comments are where most of this sentiment is born. Shockingly enough, these are all places where the users have anonymity. Faceless voices screaming into the void, even in unity, is not productive for a social cause. I wouldn't recommend taking these sources seriously.

The people actually gathering momentum for this movement are willing to put their opinion out there alongside their identity. It's why select people are losing their jobs and the press is reporting on it. As much as I appreciate ResetEra, it is still merely an isolated forum for discussion that is limited in how much impact it has. Alongside the quality of discourse and moderation, that's why it is a great place for discussing the minutiae of games.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
Guys you got me, I only think Chinese people are brainwashed and would never apply that to any group of white people which is exactly why I said the situation was the same for the populace in famously non white countries like modern Russia and Nazi Germany
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
I’d argue the conditions concerning diversity of thought and ideas that you see in mainland China are going to be way more similar to rural America (and probably even more extreme) than America as a whole. NOT every rural white American buys into the republican bullshit either just like not every Chinese person buys into the CCP’s bullshit
Yeah, and I’m not making these arguments to drive home the point “yeah you should point out you’re not talking about all Chinese people”. but what I am saying, again referring to the point of the convo where I jumped in, over the contention of using “brainwashed”, is you have to be careful of the rhetoric you use when describing entire groups of people. Especially if in similar situations that are say, closer to home, you’d be a bit more uncomfortable in being described that way.

even as an ardent supporter of “if it don’t apply let it fly”, my intended point is we should be more particular about the rhetoric we use to describe the socialization and indoctrination of Chinese mainlanders. But also remember that the phenomenon of majority group ignoring the plights of minority groups happen everywhere and more times than not is about how one’s own individual apathy can manifest and multiply across a larger social collective
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
Yeah, and I’m not making these arguments to drive home the point “yeah you should point out you’re not talking about all Chinese people”. but what I am saying, again referring to the point of the convo where I jumped in, over the contention of using “brainwashed”, is you have to be careful of the rhetoric you use when describing entire groups of people. Especially if in similar situations that are say, closer to home, you’d be a bit more uncomfortable in being described that way.

even as an ardent supporter of “if it don’t apply let it fly”, my intended point is we should be more particular about the rhetoric we use to describe the socialization and indoctrination of Chinese mainlanders. But also remember that the phenomenon of majority group ignoring the plights of minority groups happen everywhere and more times than not is about how one’s own individual apathy can manifest and multiply across a larger social collective
Even in America and other western countries i’d attribute a lot of things regarding the perpetuation of discrimination to indoctrination that occurs from a young age. Like it’s not surprising that many white people have a hard time accepting how prevalent systemic racism still is in modern society when we’re taught from such a young age how racism is a thing of the past and America is a land of opportunity where the only barriers to success are one’s talent and drive
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
The Chinese government is taken too lightly. We are currently witnessing a mass genocide/ethnic cleansing the details of which make your skin crawl. One day we’ll look back on this with shame when the full details of just how horrific and widespread their actions have been.

This doesn’t mean I hate Chinese people but their government needs to be held to account.
This is how I feel too, even on this site. Like I know the issues in china don't directly affect me, but fuck man putting minorities in cages and harvesting their organs. I can't forgive that.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
There is an incredible amount of xenophobia in these discussions to the point where I'm quite scared for my well being.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
Why would you be afraid? And report the xenophobia, if you see it.
I'm Chinese and I've personally experienced personal harassment on the streets of a supposedly progressive western city with direct references to how I will be deported for being Chinese.
It's not even about online, that I can take, when it seeps into real life is when it gets disgusting and all of this rhetoric is seeping into the real world very fast.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
I'm Chinese and I've personally experienced personal harassment on the streets of a supposedly progressive western city with direct references to how I will be deported for being Chinese.
It's not even about online, that I can take, when it seeps into real life is when it gets disgusting and all of this rhetoric is seeping into the real world very fast.
I encountered a lot of that in university. My school had a sizable intern student population with the majority being Chinese. I was of course lumped in with them and subject to the same discrimination on campus.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
I'm Chinese and I've personally experienced personal harassment on the streets of a supposedly progressive western city with direct references to how I will be deported for being Chinese.
It's not even about online, that I can take, when it seeps into real life is when it gets disgusting and all of this rhetoric is seeping into the real world very fast.
Nobody should be deported for their nationality. Hell, even the Chinese people who actively support the CCP should not get reported for that alone (this is especially true imo because of how China indoctrinates its citizens). That said I think it’s important to challenge the views of people who defend the CCP and it’s genocide and dystopian social control policies. The same is true for people who defend the Trump administration or any other shitty government
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,735
is the same like when people say fuck Russia/russians, you know what people mean by that, it would be idiotic to call xenophobia.

Having said that not everyone on your side on an issue is on your side on every issue, terrible people will often agree with you and you have to live with that and learn that that doesn't invalidate your position
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
10,840
People can hardly tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese and Korean.

You think they'll know the difference between Mainlanders, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Malaysian Chinese, Singaporean Chinese etc. ?

It's to be expected that we'll all be swept up together into one group for discrimination.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
So calling Chinese people brainwashed isn't at all xenophobic?
when we call them brainwashed, we aren’t making a judgement of their moral character. If anything i’d Argue that suggesting that Chinese populace is fully aware of how the CCP operates and the atrocities they commit and just don’t care at all is a far more damning condemnation of them as a people than suggesting they’ve been conditioned to trust the government or at the very least stay silent about any distrust they have
 

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,137
Remnant
It might not be the entire group, but when you have Mainland Chinese kids coming over here and causing an incident like the Lennon wall harassment in Richmond BC, there's something to be said about that mentality.
 

Aestivalis

Member
Nov 4, 2018
1,604
I didn't consider "brainwashed".
But after lurking on Chinese biggest NBA forum for two days, I think it's not hyperbole...
All the hostility toward NBA and peer censoring is voluntary. Scariest thing is, most posters are highschool / college students.

But OTOH, maybe not here, but xenophobia is definitely present.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
when we call them brainwashed, we aren’t making a judgement of their moral character. If anything i’d Argue that suggesting that Chinese populace is fully aware of how the CCP operates and the atrocities they commit and just don’t care at all is a far more damning condemnation of them as a people than suggesting they’ve been conditioned to trust the government or at the very least stay silent about any distrust they have
The United States citizens are aware of the vast vast crimes their country commits and yet they're not subjected to the same kind of rhetoric that calls millions of people brainwashed.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
when we call them brainwashed, we aren’t making a judgement of their moral character. If anything i’d Argue that suggesting that Chinese populace is fully aware of how the CCP operates and the atrocities they commit and just don’t care at all is a far more damning condemnation of them as a people than suggesting they’ve been conditioned to trust the government or at the very least stay silent about any distrust they have
That ignores the long history where Asians especially have been treated as sort of a hive mind. You're ignoring all historical context. As an example, nobody calls the English brainwashed over Brexit yet it's the first thing that people use for the Chinese.
I'm not sure how you could ever call a group of one billion people brainwashed about anything.
It's just insane perilism that regards the Chinese as inherently "inscrutable".
It also robs that billion people of any and all autonomy. Again it makes them out like robots.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,389
The United States citizens are aware of the vast vast crimes their country commits and yet they're not subjected to the same kind of rhetoric that calls millions of people brainwashed.
I’d argue a huge portion of the US citizens aren’t really fully aware of the shit out country has done and continues to do. And there is plenty of brainwashing going on in the US through our education and media
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
The United States citizens are aware of the vast vast crimes their country commits and yet they're not subjected to the same kind of rhetoric that calls millions of people brainwashed.
You could totally call the U.S population brainwashed and I wouldn't bat an eye. Obviously that doesn't mean everyone, and I say that as a black American in this county.
 

Manfred

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,091
Geneva, Switzerland
It's more or less the same when studios or gamers are involved in a scandal coming from authoritarian or far-right governed country, don't hesitate to ring the modobell if you find something problematic.
 

zashga

Member
Oct 28, 2017
961
Sure. I'm a secret Chinese nationalist. Boo.
I'm really getting tired of the "you're doing this in bad faith arguments". What about what I've said aludes to that at all?
Your only contribution to this week’s discussion appears to be tone policing how people should or shouldn’t criticize the Chinese government. It’s a weak position, especially since Era in general has been careful not to generalize against all Chinese people. If you have a problem with how the topic is discussed elsewhere, it might be more productive to take it up on those platforms instead of grasping at straws about how we (who aren’t doing the things you’re upset about) still aren’t meeting your nebulous standards.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
I’d argue a huge portion of the US citizens aren’t really fully aware of the shit out country has done and continues to do. And there is plenty of brainwashing going on in the US through our education and media
You could totally call the U.S population brainwashed and I wouldn't bat an eye. Obviously that doesn't mean everyone, and I say that as a black American in this county.
It's a country of one billion people, each with their own hopes, dreams, feelings, sadness and happiness each, for me there would be no conceivable way to call an entire nation brainwashed, that goes for the US too.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,654
As others have stated this issue has united both left and right leaning gamers and as such youre bound to see some dog whistle type arguments from people. Luckily that hasn't really happened here and the majority of the criticism has been targeted at the government and blizzardactivision.