Xenophobia in Discussions About Epic/Blizzard

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
People trying to "explain" how shit isn't racist or doesn't have an uncomfortable undercurrent to me, a Chinese person who directly has been affected in real life from this is....I can't put it into words other than I hope I can move to a country where I'm not a visible minority pretty soon, because it's only going to get worse for us.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
User Banned (1 Month): Xenophobia; Numerous Prior Bans for Inflammatory Behavior
Things like "Mainland Chinese are brainwashed" or statements that suggest the Chinese are automatons all loyally supporting the CCP.
You should take a trip to China yourself. My recent Shanghai trip indicates to me that it isn't far from the truth.
 

noyram23

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,546
I honestly don't see the racism in pretty much every forums or other social media sites I visit and interacted into, it was all directed to CCP. The "fuck China" in context is pretty much directed into the government rather than it's peopl
 

wandering

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
Pacific Northwest
Sorry, you’re not responsible for what you say. You’re responsible for what you could later say because other people have been racist in the past!
I apologize profusely for my future self. Please forgive him, he fell down the slippery slope and hit his head.
So you’re literal children who don’t grasp the concept of historical context informing our knowledge of what occurs in the present. Got it.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
People trying to "explain" how shit isn't racist or doesn't have an uncomfortable undercurrent to me, a Chinese person who directly has been affected in real life from this is....I can't put it into words other than I hope I can move to a country where I'm not a visible minority pretty soon, because it's only going to get worse for us.
Pretty shitty that we had a thread of people firing off "deport them!" mindlessly and some posters don't see the problem.

Sorry you have to read that.
 

piratethingy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
268
So you’re literal children who don’t grasp the concept of historical context informing our knowledge of what occurs in the present. Got it.
Yup, only a literal child could ever disagree with you about the application of history to current events. History has always been applied to current events correctly and every slippery slope ever described obviously came to pass, because historical context informs our knowledge of what occurs in the present.

Imagine calling someone a child on a videogame forum because they disagree with you. I’m out, peace friends.
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,738
I shouldn't be upset at people mistaking "Fuck China" for "Fuck Chinese people". After all, China is actively working towards turning itself into an ethnostate where those two things are synonymous, so the confusion is understandable.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
Yup, only a literal child could ever disagree with you about the application of history to current events. History has always been applied to current events correctly and every slippery slope ever described obviously came to pass, because historical context informs our knowledge of what occurs in the present.

Imagine calling someone a child on a videogame forum because they disagree with you. I’m out, peace friends.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
I'm honestly a bit disheartened. I came here expecting the more open community I usually see here. I suppose on this topic it's not there.

As half the posts accuse me more or less of being a Chinese nationalist arguing in bad faith.
I'm not going to accuse you of this, and I'll take your word that you're coming into this with a genuine concern, but I hope I can give you a helpful, diplomatic explanation of why people might read you this way.

The fact is that the CCP, and CCP-aligned Chinese nationals worldwide, regularly take advantage of the semantic confusion in the west where we use the word "Chinese" to refer to both the ethnicity and the country.

The CCP's Han-ethno-nationalist ideology adores this confusion. They have a long history of believing that China and the Chinese ethnicity are one and the same, and that they have a rightful claim to the global ethnic-Chinese diaspora. It is right there in their citizenship policies. It is visible in the designation they have for "overseas Chinese" at their border entry points. And it is most visible in the One China ideology and their regional bullying of politically self-governing entities like Hong Kong and Taiwan, which is fundamentally driven by an ethno-nationalist notion that all ethnic Chinese properly belong to PRC-run China, and that everything else is a historical aberration. (This is also the excuse that China uses to accuse democrats, both in Hong Kong and around the world—and their excuse for flat-out ignoring the Joint Declaration that defined the terms of the British sovereignty transfer in 1997.) It is visible in their concerted effort, largely failed, to indoctrinate post-British Hong Kong with a newfound sense of pro-Chinese identity, displacing the local culture that is proud to speak Cantonese and write in Traditional Chinese characters, and to erase the British-derived intellectual tradition of free speech and due process that is so integral to the real history of modern HK.

In the west we're often rightly concerned about the blight that is white supremacy and the abuse directed at visible minorities. Fair. If that's the perspective you're coming from, I understand. But realize that pro-CCP Chinese elements love to take advantage of this. They love to accuse anyone speaking out against China, the country, of being racist against Chinese, the ethnicity.

Realize that "aren't you being racist/xenophobic?"—while it might be innocently meant—immediately strikes people knowledgeable about the region's politics as the classic Communist Chinese deflection to shut down opposition and make those sensitive to racism doubt their solidarity with anti-CCP movements.

If you look at the streets of Hong Kong, or at the global solidarity marches in London, Berlin, New York, everywhere—you'll see that people who are ethnically Chinese are on the front lines here, and that they are the ones enduring the most abuse and intimidation from pro-China elements, who act out of a misplaced sense of ethno-nationalist pride and a belief that insulting the country of China insults them as Chinese people (which is exactly what PRC ideology wants them to feel). Understand that ethnic Chinese who are pro-HK, or critical of the PRC's history of humanitarian atrocities and historical revisionism, are themselves frequently accused of being self-hating racists by the pro-mainland opposition.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Hong Kong, specifically, is one of the most complex cities on earth when it comes to national identity. You have people who feel very Chinese and see Chinese culture and history going back to ancient times as their own, but who passionately oppose the PRC's Han/Mandarin imperialism. You have BNO passport holders from the colonial era who still identify as British. You have young localists who dissociate from China completely and who identify only as born-and-bred Hong Kongers. All of these factions and more are bound up in the democratic movement, and the current Chinese government is desperate to make you forget that. They want Hong Kongers to forget; they want global observers to forget. They want ethnic Chinese to feel threatened and offended every time somebody speaks out against the country, because it serves their ideological interests to conflate the two as much as possible.

Is there some racism going on in the west among people who don't know any better? Probably—and that's unfortunate. But it's also a distraction that serves PRC interests. So when people respond to anti-China sentiment by saying, "but aren't you just being racist"—understand that this sets off every alarm bell in the room.

The People's Republic of China does not stand for the global diaspora of people with ethnic Chinese heritage. About this, we must be loud and clear. Otherwise we risk capitulating to their argument that their campaign of regional hegemony is an internal matter of sovereignty, in which the west is not supposed to interfere.

I'm willing to read you in good faith here and I'm sorry that others are jumping on you in a way that feels hostile. But I hope you understand why some of the arguments you are making hit sore points with those who are standing up against the PRC menace—and familiar points where they have been hit many times before.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,973
I shouldn't be upset at people mistaking "Fuck China" for "Fuck Chinese people". After all, China is actively working towards turning itself into an ethnostate where those two things are synonymous, so the confusion is understandable.
I spent all that time writing up my post, and by the time I was finished you had already put it so much better and more succinctly.
 

lucentcrowe

Banned
Feb 11, 2019
35
User Banned (permanent): xenophobia, defending authoritarian regimes engaging in violence against their own populace
This happens every time and it's honestly pretty sickening.

The very idea that huge masses of people, in the most populous country in the world, could be "brainwashed" or "controlled" is racist and xenophobic rhetoric itself, and it's disgusting. Mainland Chinese people are not any less intelligent, educated, "free-thinking" etc than you. There is no such thing as large-scale national "brainwashing"- you just think that you and yours are more intellectually capable and "freer" than Chinese people are. That's the exact same yellow peril rhetoric the west has regurgitated for a long time.

The fact that many mainland Chinese people support the CPC and don't want western model democracy is only so incredibly hard to accept if you believe, totally uncritically, that the West is the greatest and therefore it's common sense that everyone should want to imitate it and to overthrow governments which oppose it.

Hong Kong "protestors" have brutally attacked the elderly who challenge their uncivil behavior and anti-PRC positions, destroyed people's shop fronts and livelihoods who they suspect to be pro-PRC, etc. But they are covered by western media as saints begging for freedom because their interests align with the imperial interests of the U.S and it's allies. They don't wave the colonial union jack for nothing.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,273
I shouldn't be upset at people mistaking "Fuck China" for "Fuck Chinese people". After all, China is actively working towards turning itself into an ethnostate where those two things are synonymous, so the confusion is understandable.
I spent all that time writing up my post, and by the time I was finished you had already put it so much better and more succinctly.
I mean it's not an invalid concern. This is what happened with Muslims. Westerners took real threats - bin Laden, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. - and bigots took those lines and blurred them over and over until laymen couldn't see them apart. Fear of the few quickly morphed into a hatred of many, and bigots capitalized at pointing to capital-M Muslims as "the enemy" to justify themselves.

The fact that people ITT are waving off the expression of this concern as shilling for the CCP is this in action.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
We're several steps short of the context for that.
Am I not allowed to have concerns about this happening to me?
I mean it's not an invalid concern. This is what happened with Muslims. Westerners took real threats - bin Laden, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. - and bigots took those lines and blurred them over and over until laymen couldn't see them apart. Fear of the few quickly morphed into a hatred of many, and bigots capitalized at pointing to capital-M Muslims as "the enemy" to justify themselves.

The fact that people ITT are waving off the expression of this concern as shilling for the CCP is this in action.
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
I mean it's not an invalid concern. This is what happened with Muslims. Westerners took real threats - bin Laden, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. - and bigots took those lines and blurred them over and over until laymen couldn't see them apart. Fear of the few quickly morphed into a hatred of many, and bigots capitalized at pointing to capital-M Muslims as "the enemy" to justify themselves.

The fact that people ITT are waving off the expression of this concern as shilling for the CCP is this in action.
I completely understand that, and minorities will always get shit from the majority so I really do understand the worry, all countries have an issue with xenophobia/racism etc.

But then you have what the user above you has just said and how they support the Chinese Government, so can you blame people for being a bit cautious about the intentions of some here?
 

wandering

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
Pacific Northwest
Yup, only a literal child could ever disagree with you about the application of history to current events. History has always been applied to current events correctly and every slippery slope ever described obviously came to pass, because historical context informs our knowledge of what occurs in the present.

Imagine calling someone a child on a videogame forum because they disagree with you. I’m out, peace friends.
Yes yes, “it’s a video game forum,” super creative. Pretend to be civil and clutch your pearls all you want.

What you’re doing isn’t disagreeing, you’re dismissing people’s fears out of hand. History doesn’t have to repeat itself 100% of the time for the response to make sense.

Imagine using the “just because some people were racist in the past” argument non-ironically.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
Hong Kong "protestors" have brutally attacked the elderly who challenge their uncivil behavior and anti-PRC positions, destroyed people's shop fronts and livelihoods who they suspect to be pro-PRC, etc. But they are covered by western media as saints begging for freedom because their interests align with the imperial interests of the U.S and it's allies. They don't wave the colonial union jack for nothing.
Do you think Hong Kong should kowtow to a regime that slaughters Muslims and harvests their organs?
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
This happens every time and it's honestly pretty sickening.

The very idea that huge masses of people, in the most populous country in the world, could be "brainwashed" or "controlled" is racist and xenophobic rhetoric itself, and it's disgusting. Mainland Chinese people are not any less intelligent, educated, "free-thinking" etc than you. There is no such thing as large-scale national "brainwashing"- you just think that you and yours are more intellectually capable and "freer" than Chinese people are. That's the exact same yellow peril rhetoric the west has regurgitated for a long time.

The fact that many mainland Chinese people support the CPC and don't want western model democracy is only so incredibly hard to accept if you believe, totally uncritically, that the West is the greatest and therefore it's common sense that everyone should want to imitate it and to overthrow governments which oppose it.

Hong Kong "protestors" have brutally attacked the elderly who challenge their uncivil behavior and anti-PRC positions, destroyed people's shop fronts and livelihoods who they suspect to be pro-PRC, etc. But they are covered by western media as saints begging for freedom because their interests align with the imperial interests of the U.S and it's allies. They don't wave the colonial union jack for nothing.
The irony here is that this very forum calls a not even remotely small subset of white people brainwashed for their beliefs and views and those people are their literal neighbors. The idea that the term only applies to "racist and xenophobic rhetoric" towards the Chinese is nothing short of selectively ignorant.

And I guess next you'll suggest the Uighur Muslims had it coming.

Christ Americans make everything about themselves.
We didn't make this thread, someone made it about us. Stop making everything about what you think we're thinking and there will be fewer threads making things about us.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,273
I completely understand that, and minorities will always get shit from the majority so I really do understand the worry, all countries have an issue with xenophobia/racism etc.

But then you have what the user above you has just said and how they support the Chinese Government, so can you blame people for being a bit cautious about the intentions of some here?
I get recognizing patterns and trying to take measures proactively, especially since a lot of bigots play by the same playbooks over and over again, but sometimes you just gotta let that shoe drop.

At the very least I'd like to think the contrast of that user's post compared to the OP's and others should be a pretty good indicator on what people's motivations are.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
I get recognizing patterns and trying to take measures proactively, especially since a lot of bigots play by the same playbooks over and over again, but sometimes you just gotta let that shoe drop.

At the very least I'd like to think the contrast of that user's post compared to the OP's and others should be a pretty good indicator on what people's motivations are.
You certainly can, but others certainly don't have to agree those fears seem remotely reasonable at this time. Nor are they prevented from saying so.
I've been the victim of multiple hate crimes this year alone, in real life for being Chinese so forgive me if I think my fears are reasonable and anyone saying it isn't is full of shit.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
& do you think destroying people's shops & livelihoods will somehow prevent the regime from doing this? when you disagree with your government's policies, is this what you do?...
There is no such thing as a "clean" revolution. People are angry and scared. Some people will lash out or use it as an excuse for violence. But that entire post was a bunch of apologia for a fascist authoritarian regime and not one mention of said regime's actual crimes.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
269
There is no such thing as a "clean" revolution. People are angry and scared. Some people will lash out or use it as an excuse for violence. But that entire post was a bunch of apologia for a fascist authoritarian regime and not one mention of said regime's actual crimes.
you didn't answer my question. is this how you act when you're angry & scared? would you like someone who's angry & cared to trash your business?...

the regime is not being dissuaded by this violence. quite the contrary. it's actually giving them license to crack down...
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
& do you think destroying people's shops & livelihoods will somehow prevent the regime from doing this? when you disagree with your government's policies, is this what you do?...
I'm allowed to disagree with my Government without fearing for my life though.

The protesters are going to the extreme because they feel like they have no choice. A lot of the violence was started by the authorities anyway, protests were peaceful at the start.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
I've been the victim of multiple hate crimes this year alone, in real life for being Chinese so forgive me if I think my fears are reasonable and anyone saying it isn't is full of shit.
A lot of people in the western hemisphere are the recipients of hate crimes, you posted a link to something far beyond that though. I can fully understand a fear that this may incite further hate crimes. What you posted wasn't that. You posted a link to an event that was a government round up and interment that was a result of racist fears during a war in a period which was considerably more racist in term of actual recognized law than now.

Edit: And yes, I'm even taking the situation at the southern US border into account when saying that, and recognize were not nearly as distant as I'd like it to be from those sentiments.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
you didn't answer my question. is this how you act when you're angry & scared? would you like someone who's angry & cared to trash your business?...
I wouldn't like it and would not act that way. But I would understand it. I have the knowledge to understand that these things happen in revolutions and that outrage placed at the protestors is largely misplaced when you consider the vast, vast, vast reach of the Chinese government and their crimes.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Sydney
A lot of people in the western hemisphere are the recipients of hate crimes, you posted a link to something far beyond that though. I can fully understand a fear that this may incite further hate crimes. What you posted wasn't that. You posted a link to an event that was a government round up and interment that was a result of racist fears during a war in a period which was considerably more racist in term of actual recognized law than now.
You don't think there were Japanese hate crimes leading up to internment? You don't think this current incredible fear of the Chinese government isn't going to spark backlash against regular Chinese people? It's already a mainstream media position where I live that every Chinese person is somehow a secret CCP member, racism has definitley gotten worse for me growing up, I mean, I wouldn't imagine internment camps being possible ten years ago but now? The fact I can even think it's a possibility is insane.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
you didn't answer my question. is this how you act when you're angry & scared? would you like someone who's angry & cared to trash your business?...

the regime is not being dissuaded by this violence. quite the contrary. it's actually giving them license to crack down...
I'm still allowed to post images of Tigger despite a past president being compared to him in a meme.

I feel my capacity to voice grievances peacefully actually exists vs being forceably suppressed.

Those capacities which I've inherited weren't exactly granted peacefully.

You don't think there were Japanese hate crimes leading up to internment? You don't think this current incredible fear of the Chinese government isn't going to spark backlash against regular Chinese people? It's already a mainstream media position where I live that every Chinese person is somehow a secret CCP member, racism has definitley gotten worse for me growing up, I mean, I wouldn't imagine internment camps being possible ten years ago but now? The fact I can even think it's a possibility is insane.
A lot of people in the western hemisphere are the recipients of hate crimes, you posted a link to something far beyond that though. I can fully understand a fear that this may incite further hate crimes. What you posted wasn't that. You posted a link to an event that was a government round up and interment that was a result of racist fears during a war in a period which was considerably more racist in term of actual recognized law than now.

Edit: And yes, I'm even taking the situation at the southern US border into account when saying that, and recognize were not nearly as distant as I'd like it to be from those sentiments.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
269
I wouldn't like it and would not act that way. But I would understand it. I have the knowledge to understand that these things happen in revolutions and that outrage placed at the protestors is largely misplaced when you consider the vast, vast, vast reach of the Chinese government and their crimes.
you might think you would, or hope you would. but, until someone actually does burn your life's business to the ground, you really won't know, will you?...

the violent rioting is what it is - violent rioting. it's not revolution. it's anarchy. &, as i said, it's only giving the government license to crack down...
 

teacup

Member
Oct 28, 2017
635
I shouldn't be upset at people mistaking "Fuck China" for "Fuck Chinese people". After all, China is actively working towards turning itself into an ethnostate where those two things are synonymous, so the confusion is understandable.
this guy maybe said it harshly but the Chinese government is actively trying to pull the old “criticism Israel? You are anti Semitic!” Trick. By tying in their government, censorship, human rights abuses, people, culture, language and history (and even claiming other countries as well!) they respond to any criticism of one as criticism of all of it.

then there is also the fact that there is contingent of Chinese netizens who will flood people’s twitter feeds / social medias with criticism if that person protests something the Chinese government or a public Chinese figure does. See the backlash against athletes for criticising the Chinese swimmer being investigated for smashing a blood vial to avoid a test.

this Makes people conflate multiple things and, mixed in with good old fashioned normal racism (honestly the amount of people who just laugh at those “rich asians being rude to everyone!” Is awful) it comes off quite poorly.

But make no mistake a lot of it is a feature, not a bug. Look at how effective it is.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
you might think you would, or hope you would. but, until someone actually does burn your life's business to the ground, you really won't know, will you?...

the violent rioting is what it is - violent rioting. it's not revolution. it's anarchy. &, as i said, it's only giving the government license to crack down...
lmao, I heard enough of this bullshit about black lives matter protestors and antifa. Just admit you don't like to see what happens when people are pushed in the corner by a fascist regime because it disturbs your view of peaceful society.
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
you might think you would, or hope you would. but, until someone actually does burn your life's business to the ground, you really won't know, will you?...

the violent rioting is what it is - violent rioting. it's not revolution. it's anarchy. &, as i said, it's only giving the government license to crack down...
What do you suggest that the protesters should have done then?
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,941
& do you think destroying people's shops & livelihoods will somehow prevent the regime from doing this? when you disagree with your government's policies, is this what you do?...
What world history are you reading where the fight for human rights ends in zero violence, zero casualties, zero destruction of property, zero damages?

What kind of question is this? When the powers that be don't listen to words, this is always how it ends up. Every fucking time. Miss me with this bullshit.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
269
User banned (1 week): Whataboutisms. Trolling over a series of posts in a sensitive thread.
lmao, I heard enough of this bullshit about black lives matter protestors and antifa. Just admit you don't like to see what happens when people are pushed in the corner by a fascist regime because it disturbs your view of peaceful society.
your current regime, like several of those previous to it, is actively participating in war crimes in the middle east every day. time to start burning down some mcdonald's?...

it's history, son: violence only begets more violence...

What do you suggest that the protesters should have done then?
ever heard of martin luther king?...

no one is saying it's easy. if you're not willing to suffer in order to get something, then you never truly wanted it...
 

Maintenance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,693
this guy maybe said it harshly but the Chinese government is actively trying to pull the old “criticism Israel? You are anti Semitic!” Trick. By tying in their government, censorship, human rights abuses, people, culture, language and history (and even claiming other countries as well!) they respond to any criticism of one as criticism of all of it.

then there is also the fact that there is contingent of Chinese netizens who will flood people’s twitter feeds / social medias with criticism if that person protests something the Chinese government or a public Chinese figure does. See the backlash against athletes for criticising the Chinese swimmer being investigated for smashing a blood vial to avoid a test.

this Makes people conflate multiple things and, mixed in with good old fashioned normal racism (honestly the amount of people who just laugh at those “rich asians being rude to everyone!” Is awful) it comes off quite poorly.

But make no mistake a lot of it is a feature, not a bug. Look at how effective it is.
I've said this time and time again, Israel did the exact same thing and it worked almost flawlessly, now the CCP is doing the same song and dance and surprise, it is working.

We had the blueprint of this shit for decades, and people are still falling for it.

We even got the MLK name drop, for fuck's sake.
 
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steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
it's history, son: violence only begets more violence...
The protesters were doing it peacefully until this happened:


ever heard of martin luther king?...
Oh yeah, how is racism in America?

I would read this too.

 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
ever heard of martin luther king?...
You men the man who still got shot and killed once again proving the point that there are limits to peaceful protest in the face of powerful opposition?

In the nation that still has massive issues with racism spanning to this day and when you get down to it was the impetus for this very thread?

You mean the man who was granted the opportunity to speak as he did after the nation underwent one of the costliest wars in terms of American lives to confirm he had any rights beyong being bought and sold as property?
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
Martin Luther King Jr. was painted as a violent radical by the media of his day and fucking assassinated by the CIA. But yeah sure, peaceful protester.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
ever heard of martin luther king?...

no one is saying it's easy. if you're not willing to suffer in order to get something, then you never truly wanted it...
If you're really going to invoke King how many dead people in Hong Kong will it take to make their protest legitimate?

That's how his story ended. That's what you're asking for.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
This happens every time and it's honestly pretty sickening.

The very idea that huge masses of people, in the most populous country in the world, could be "brainwashed" or "controlled" is racist and xenophobic rhetoric itself, and it's disgusting. Mainland Chinese people are not any less intelligent, educated, "free-thinking" etc than you. There is no such thing as large-scale national "brainwashing"- you just think that you and yours are more intellectually capable and "freer" than Chinese people are. That's the exact same yellow peril rhetoric the west has regurgitated for a long time.

The fact that many mainland Chinese people support the CPC and don't want western model democracy is only so incredibly hard to accept if you believe, totally uncritically, that the West is the greatest and therefore it's common sense that everyone should want to imitate it and to overthrow governments which oppose it.

Hong Kong "protestors" have brutally attacked the elderly who challenge their uncivil behavior and anti-PRC positions, destroyed people's shop fronts and livelihoods who they suspect to be pro-PRC, etc. But they are covered by western media as saints begging for freedom because their interests align with the imperial interests of the U.S and it's allies. They don't wave the colonial union jack for nothing.
I was wondering how long it would take for this boring old flavour of "but the west!" illiberal stumping to come out of the woodwork.

You're damn right they wave the colonial flag (or did, until the Black Bauhinia emerged this summer as a more forward-looking symbol shorn of those connotations) when under British norms and protections for free expression, Hong Kongers were on the streets in 1989 speaking out against the Tiananmen massacre and keeping the memory of it alive, while mainland China has run such a concerted 30-year campaign to suppress it as fake news that Chinese expats in the west pressure universities and corporations to shut up about the subject.

Only one of these sides overtly pursues aggressive state censorship and an official line of historical denialism. So spare me the false equivalence; you're embarrassing yourself.

If your point is that countless mainland citizens and expats earnestly support the anti-democratic, ethno-nationalist PRC ideology—oh, believe me, I have no doubt of that. I have no doubt that many of them support their country and choose to trust the tightly controlled state press, dismissing all opposition as fake news, out of a sense of national pride. But if it makes me a western imperialist to oppose their ideology as a point of principle, I'll happily be accused of being a western imperialist. That's what it means to have convictions. And that is what makes Hong Kong irrevocably distinct from China as a political culture, and why it will not stand for assimilation into mainland values that are so irreconcilable with its own.

What world history are you reading where the fight for human rights ends in zero violence, zero casualties, zero destruction of property, zero damages?

What kind of question is this? When the powers that be don't listen to words, this is always how it ends up. Every fucking time. Miss me with this bullshit.
The thing I love about that argument—and it's so cliché—is that the people following Chinese state media's lead in saying, "but the shops! but the metro ticket terminals!" talk entirely about property damage while ignoring the human cost of police brutality: the gassing outside the shops, the beatings in the metro. It is materialism in the extreme.
 

Spyder_Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
I feel like the vast majority of people who are really mad at Blizzard right now lay the blame directly on the government exactly where it belongs.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,941
Invoking Martin Luther King Jr. to shut down legitimate protests and the natural conclusion that occurs when the people are suppressed (which MLK has stated plainly) is grossly grossly offensive and people who do this should be ashamed of themselves. It's embarrassing someone would come to a discussion about CCP using violence against HK citizens and invoke MLK to finger wave them like MLK along with like every other notable black revolutionary (violent of otherwise) didn't all end up dead. Go the fuck away, seriously.
 

Nome

Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,433
NYC
Also my thoughts on the matter.

When I say "fuck China and everything they stand for," I'm not saying "fuck all Chinese people" (who unfortunately happen to be brainwashed imo).
I think you misunderstood when you quoted me... and the thing is, you got banned for your comment--because you ironically displayed the xenophobic behavior I was pointing out.

A lot of the discourse around this is effectively prefaced with "I'm not racist, buuuuut". EGS/Tencent threads are full of this. Tencent is a massive conglomerate. Their gaming division has nothing to do with their WeChat or other subsidiaries. Avoiding Tencent-invested games because you want to protest WeChat is like avoiding Boeing passenger jets because they also manufacture weapons of war. If that's the battle you want to choose, that's up to you--but at least educate yourself first.

Aside from that, Tencent's rather small 5% stake in Blizzard doesn't give them much power. I can all but guarantee you that what Blizzard does in China is done at the behest of Blizzard alone. Hell, Tencent doesn't even operate Blizzard games in China--NetEase does, and if any Chinese entity were to exert influence on Blizzard in China, it'd be them, and in an advisory role. I say this with confidence because I have extensive experience working with Tencent, both directly and indirectly.

People who rag on Tencent in these threads without even a basic understanding of the above facts operate on heuristic fear of Chinese companies. That's xenophobia.
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,563
Yeah people using legitimate issues as an excuse to be racist. That sort of thing will always remind me of when 9/11 happened as that was such a prominent example of that.