Xenophobia in Discussions About Epic/Blizzard

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,273
I think you misunderstood when you quoted me... and the thing is, you got banned for your comment--because you ironically displayed the xenophobic behavior I was pointing out.

A lot of the discourse around this is effectively prefaced with "I'm not racist, buuuuut". EGS/Tencent threads are full of this. Tencent is a massive conglomerate. Their gaming division has nothing to do with their WeChat or other subsidiaries. Avoiding Tencent-invested games because you want to protest WeChat is like avoiding Boeing passenger jets because they also manufacture weapons of war. If that's the battle you want to choose, that's up to you--but at least educate yourself first.

Aside from that, Tencent's rather small 5% stake in Blizzard doesn't give them much power. I can all but guarantee you that what Blizzard does in China is done at the behest of Blizzard alone. Hell, Tencent doesn't even operate Blizzard games in China--NetEase does, and if any Chinese entity were to exert influence on Blizzard in China, it'd be them, and in an advisory role. I say this with confidence because I have extensive experience working with Tencent, both directly and indirectly.

People who rag on Tencent in these threads without even a basic understanding of the above facts operate on heuristic fear of Chinese companies. That's xenophobia.
Lot of people in the gaming threads keep spouting off "5% Blizzard, 40% Epic" as if Blizzard's actions are primarily due to Tencent laying pressure and Blizzard wanting to appease them. As if Blizzard doesn't have its own independent reasons to preserve its hold of the Chinese market, regardless of what Tencent has to say. If anything it's far more offensive because it effectively tries to absolve Blizzard of responsibility and culpability in favor of ragging on Tencent as this "man behind the curtain" puppet master.

That's not to say Tencent is completely innocent or absolved of this or whatever other tech involvements/influences it has, but the way people quickly and smoothly blame Tencent in a simple breath is in itself part of the concern.
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,990
People who rag on Tencent in these threads without even a basic understanding of the above facts operate on heuristic fear of Chinese companies.
At the same time there are legitimate criticisms to be had recently in regards to Tencent because of the NBA situation. I wouldn't blame people for boycotting the company or at the very least calling them out for that reason specifically.

Lot of people in the gaming threads keep spouting off "5% Blizzard, 40% Epic" as if Blizzard's actions are primarily due to Tencent laying pressure and Blizzard wanting to appease them. As if Blizzard doesn't have its own independent reasons to preserve its hold of the Chinese market, regardless of what Tencent has to say. If anything it's far more offensive because it effectively tries to absolve Blizzard of responsibility and culpability in favor of ragging on Tencent as this "man behind the curtain" puppet master.
Most people are blaming Blizzard though?
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,905
Asian American here...

When I talk to Chinese Americans they'd typically agree with the statement that mainlanders are brainwashed by their government.

I don't think that's attacking Han Chinese as an ethnicity...
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
4,115
Well the difference between Tencent & say EA which both people criticise, is the CCP has a hand in Tencent & that adds another layer to it entirely, so it's easier to see how it can become seen as anti-chinese xenophobia as people will bring up the chinese governments influence.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
269
I don't think you've heard of him, you've heard of the whitewashed version.

you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
this guy maybe said it harshly but the Chinese government is actively trying to pull the old “criticism Israel? You are anti Semitic!” Trick. By tying in their government, censorship, human rights abuses, people, culture, language and history (and even claiming other countries as well!) they respond to any criticism of one as criticism of all of it.

then there is also the fact that there is contingent of Chinese netizens who will flood people’s twitter feeds / social medias with criticism if that person protests something the Chinese government or a public Chinese figure does. See the backlash against athletes for criticising the Chinese swimmer being investigated for smashing a blood vial to avoid a test.

this Makes people conflate multiple things and, mixed in with good old fashioned normal racism (honestly the amount of people who just laugh at those “rich asians being rude to everyone!” Is awful) it comes off quite poorly.

But make no mistake a lot of it is a feature, not a bug. Look at how effective it is.
I was going to say, we had this same thread a few months ago but it was about Israel.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,623
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
Stop invoking a dead black revolutionary as if he would agree with you. It's disgusting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
Get out of here using my people's struggle for your shitty post. He knew pacifism wasn't the only way to have a revolution and there were many other black leaders who used different forms of protest to fight our oppressors.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
Asian American here...

When I talk to Chinese Americans they'd typically agree with the statement that mainlanders are brainwashed by their government.

I don't think that's attacking Han Chinese as an ethnicity...
I don't think that true though. There wouldn't be a need for massive internet censorship if people are really blindly loyal to CCP.
 

The Boat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
794
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
You invoke MLK when you think he helps your narrative, but ignore his full message and history when you see it doesn't.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,944
The thing I love about that argument—and it's so cliché—is that the people following Chinese state media's lead in saying, "but the shops! but the metro ticket terminals!" talk entirely about property damage while ignoring the human cost of police brutality: the gassing outside the shops, the beatings in the metro. It is materialism in the extreme.
It's the same song and dance every time any sort of property damage arises from protests. Like, these people are the absolute worst. It's not about "right" vs "wrong". They just want to suppress people and their ability to express their desires.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,623
It's the same song and dance every time any sort of property damage arises from protests. Like, these people are the absolute worst. It's not about "right" vs "wrong". They just want to suppress people and their ability to express their desires.
They value peace and decorum above all else. In their mind, a good protest is showing up to city hall in suits and ties with a 12 font single spaced essay explaining your woes. When society breaks down because the citizens refuse to toe the line with an oppressive regime, they are very quick to say "can't we all just get along?" and condemn violence, as if violence caused by marginalized groups acting out of fear and desperation is comparable to the far-reaching and neverending violence of the state.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
Controlling information is one of the most effective ways of brainwashing and indoctrinating.
I'm not talking about repression of the press.

Many websites in China closed down their comment section ahead of the Nation Holiday in fear that the negative comments may catch the government's attention. They wouldn't have to do that if people are really brainwashed. Brainwashed people don't talk shit about the government in the comment section online.

The biggest movie/music/book review site in China is virtually shut down last weekend. The social networking function of site is suspended indefinitely with no reason given. One of reason suspected being the large number of posts on the website showing support for the HK protest.

 
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Blade Wolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,576
Taiwan
“I don’t hate the people, just the government. Also, fuck China”
Well to be fair that's exactly how we Taiwanese feel about ''China''.

To me, the word & concept ''China'' (at least in English) is no longer representative of the Han culture & values, it has become something else entirely.
That's why we much prefer saying that we're ''Hua Ren'' (Han people) than ''Ethnic Chinese''.

If there's anything that's making people xenophobic about China, it's the Chinese government themselves.
The fact that even I, a Taiwanese with 99.9% of ''Chinese'' in my blood feel this way about China says a lot about their reputation and actions.

As for ''brainwashing''.
Yes, in my opinion most of the mainland Chinese are brainwashed. I've studied in China for three years (elementary school in Dongguan) back in 2006, their text book is the very definition of communist propaganda. All of the 90後 nowadays basically grew up with those text books. I realize people are gonna flip out with me calling them brainwashed, but the fact is they are, just like how some Americans are brainwashed by the value of 2nd amendment. You can say it's a patriot thing, but either way it's brainwash nonetheless.
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,990
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
I'm whiter than white and not from America yet even I know how you are misrepresenting what MLK stood for. Also he got assassinated for his trouble, I guess violence happens, even if you aren't personally violent yourself.
 

Blade Wolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,576
Taiwan
Asian American here...

When I talk to Chinese Americans they'd typically agree with the statement that mainlanders are brainwashed by their government.

I don't think that's attacking Han Chinese as an ethnicity...
Sometimes I feel like people who felt that way are even more generalizing, cause they assume you calling mainland Chinese brainwashed to be an attack on all Chinese as if they are all just one big hivemind.

The fact is, there're lots of Chinese all over the world that hates ''China''.
Not just the government, but the core value and believes spread by said government.

A word can have very different meaning through out history, and from my observation, the word ''China'' is changing, at least in this period.
Kinda like how the world ''Germany'' gives totally different meaning to people during WWII.
 
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Nome

Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,434
NYC
Well to be fair that's exactly how we Taiwanese feel about ''China''.

To me, the word & concept ''China'' (at least in English) is no longer representative of the Han culture & values, it has become something else entirely.
That's why we much prefer saying that we're ''Hua Ren'' (Han people) than ''Ethnic Chinese''.

If there's anything that's making people xenophobic about China, it's the Chinese government themselves.
The fact that even I, a Taiwanese with 99.9% of ''Chinese'' in my blood feel this way about China says a lot about their reputation and actions.

As for ''brainwashing''.
Yes, in my opinion most of the mainland Chinese are brainwashed. I've studied in China for three years (elementary school in Dongguan) back in 2006, their text book is the very definition of communist propaganda. All of the 90後 nowadays basically grew up with those text books. I realize people are gonna flip out with me calling them brainwashed, but the fact is they are, just like how some Americans are brainwashed by the value of 2nd amendment. You can say it's a patriot thing, but either way it's brainwash nonetheless.
I'm not going to say that everyone who says that statement is racist or xenophobic. Not at all. There are a few posters here who are fantastically articulate with regards to their viewpoints, and I totally respect that. On the other hand, there are also some people who say that who are clearly racist and xenophobic. To me, it's not a catch-all, but it does raise my eyebrows a bit.

I do disagree with the use of the word "brainwashed", which tends to imply there was force involved.
What the Chinese government is doing in Xinjiang is brainwashing.
But the general populace is not "brainwashed"--they're just dogmatic by virtue of not having access to outside viewpoints. There's a pretty important difference.

At the same time there are legitimate criticisms to be had recently in regards to Tencent because of the NBA situation. I wouldn't blame people for boycotting the company or at the very least calling them out for that reason specifically.



Most people are blaming Blizzard though?
I mean, it's fair to leverage criticism with Tencent over things Tencent does. I don't think it's fair to involve Tencent when they're probably not involved--like the people who absolutely insist EGS is Chinese spyware. That's what I mean by xenophobia and racism.

And yes, most people are blaming Blizzard, but I'm not referring to those folks.
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,990
I mean, it's fair to leverage criticism with Tencent over things Tencent does. I don't think it's fair to involve Tencent when they're probably not involved--like the people who absolutely insist EGS is Chinese spyware. That's what I mean by xenophobia and racism.

And yes, most people are blaming Blizzard, but I'm not referring to those folks.
That's fair.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
10,840
Sometimes I feel like people who felt that way are even more generalizing, cause they assume you calling mainland Chinese brainwashed to be an attack on all Chinese as if they are all just one big hivemind.

The fact is, there're lots of Chinese all over the world that hates ''China''.
Not just the government, but the core value and believes spread by said government.

The same word can have very different meaning through out history, and from my observation, the word China is changing.
A lot of the concerns is regarding how most people, outside of Asia, don't understand difference between the other non-Mainland Chinese and are just lumping us all together. I have some experience of this during my short stay in UK where everyone immediately assumes I'm from China.
 

The Boat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
794
I'm not talking about repression of the press.

Many websites in China closed down their comment section ahead of the Nation Holiday in fear that the negative comments may catch the government's attention. They wouldn't have to do that if people are really brainwashed. Brainwashed people don't talk shit about the government in the comment section online.
My point isn't that everyone there is brainwashed, it's that routinely and systematically censoring and controlling the Internet, as well as... well, any means of communication is indicative that brainwashing is very common. When you have decades of information control, censorship and propaganda, the expected result is that a significant part of the population will be affected by it and, to varying degrees, brainwashed. Censorship exists because it works as a brain washing tool, obviously, there's nothing to censor comment wise if everyone's is already brainwashed.

You can see a smaller, lighter version of brainwashing by propaganda in the US, where decades of villifying left wing politics, glorifying unbridled capitalism and overinflating the "greatness" of the country led to the nationalism that is at the root of what's going on in USA right now. These things work.

China is huge and has a ton of people, obviously not everyone drinks the kool aid. Also, some live in places so remote and poor that this isn't even a thing in their lives. But it's naive to think that such a long running, large scale indoctrination effort didn't affect a significant amount of the population.
 

Kuma Bear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Japan
My Chinese partner views the protests in Hong Kong as anarchy by evil people that will be settled by the government. I don't share this view and I don't argue with her about it because I don't blame her for thinking that. Her native language is Mandarin so she reads the news in Mandarin and it just spouts government approved lies.

imagine if every English news site was fox news.com. We'd all be praising Trump in this forum. I think regular citizens of China are a victim of their society. Does anyone remember the exchange student from China who gave a speech about finding freedom in America a few years ago? I wish I could find that story.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
My point isn't that everyone there is brainwashed, it's that routinely and systematically censoring and controlling the Internet, as well as... well, any means of communication is indicative that brainwashing is very common. When you have decades of information control, censorship and propaganda, the expected result is that a significant part of the population will be affected by it and, to varying degrees, brainwashed. Censorship exists because it works as a brain washing tool, obviously, there's nothing to censor comment wise if everyone's is already brainwashed.

You can see a smaller, lighter version of brainwashing by propaganda in the US, where decades of villifying left wing politics, glorifying unbridled capitalism and overinflating the "greatness" of the country led to the nationalism that is at the root of what's going on in USA right now. These things work.

China is huge and has a ton of people, obviously not everyone drinks the kool aid. Also, some live in places so remote and poor that this isn't even a thing in their lives. But it's naive to think that such a long running, large scale indoctrination effort didn't affect a significant amount of the population.
I'm not disagreeing that brainwashing exists. I'm questioning its effectiveness.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
My Chinese partner views the protests in Hong Kong as anarchy by evil people that will be settled by the government. I don't share this view and I don't argue with her about it because I don't blame her for thinking that. Her native language is Mandarin so she reads the news in Mandarin and it just spouts government approved lies.

imagine if every English news site was fox news.com. We'd all be praising Trump in this forum. I think regular citizens of China are a victim of their society. Does anyone remember the exchange student from China who gave a speech about finding freedom in America a few years ago? I wish I could find that story.

This one?
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,600
People doubting statewide brainwashing need to read up on history. Stalins USSR, Eastern Germany before the wall fell, hitlers nazi Germany. Rwanda. Serbia. All used propaganda and brainwashing to make neighbors kill each other and blindly follow the oppressive government.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
People doubting statewide brainwashing need to read up on history. Stalins USSR, Eastern Germany before the wall fell, hitlers nazi Germany. Rwanda. Serbia. All used propaganda and brainwashing to make neighbors kill each other and blindly follow the oppressive government.
Yet USSR collapsed.

I would argue that most people in favor of CCP benefited directly from the economic growth in the last few decades and naturally feel supportive of the government. Like for example international students studying abroad whose family wealth are direct result of CCP's policy. The widely spread "weiquan" movement in recent years proves that people in China will undoubtedly voice their dissent when their liveihood is threatened. The government is strengthening its censorship and propaganda as the economic growth slows down. And we have yet to see just how effective the propaganda really is.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,575
Greater Vancouver
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
Lol this is the weakest fucking attempt to a) mischaracterize MLK for your shitty argument, b) intentionally ignore the part where he was fucking killed, and c) ignore the acts of countless other black protesters who put in the fucking work, yet are historically glossed over because their protest didn't line up with white peoples' marketable ideas of "civility."
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,600
Yet USSR collapsed.

I would argue that most people in favor of CCP benefited directly from the economic growth in the last few decades and naturally feel supportive of the government. Like for example international students studying abroad whose family wealth are direct result of CCP's policy. The widely spread "weiquan" movement in recent years proves that people in China will undoubtedly voice their dissent when their liveihood is threatened. The government is strengthening its censorship and propaganda as the economic growth slows down. And we have yet to see just how effective the propaganda really is.
It did but hitlers Germany didn’t implode, they lost the war. Their brainwashing was highly effective and kept most Germans, not only in check, but actively supporting the Reich.
 

Filibuster

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7
I hope I can move to a country where I'm not a visible minority pretty soon.
As a native Vietnamese let me tell you do not get your hope up too high if you intend to go to your place of origin ( or as you described, your grandpa's)

If you do not speak fluent native tongue, you will be an outcast. There is nothing weirder to native than looking at another who "forgot" (as in, never learn) it.
You could most likely escape death but the above will be hard to overcome.
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
222
I am ethnically Chinese. Not only that, but I lived in Hong Kong for quite some time. I also have friends and family there, some of whom are on opposite sides.

I don't like talking about what's happening in Hong Kong because the situation is more nuanced than people realize.

Lately I've tried to avoid the subject online and on TV, because a lot of this nuance is missing. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I see a lot of anti-China posts that feel like they're using Hong Kong as a way to justify their biases/distrust/fear/hate of China. TV stations are even worse -- they portray protestors like the second coming of Jesus, ignoring the messed up things the protestors are doing.

The situation is just as bad on the other end -- Chinese media coverage can portray protestors as filthy criminals backed by westerners, and focusing entirely on the 'bad' protestors who do some messed up stuff.

The thing I would like to point out to a lot of people, especially online, is that you are not there. Even I, who is much more closely tied to Hong Kong than many of those posting, am hesitant to start rallying to the cause of either side, because the picture is not as clear-cut as people like to make it.

There were large protests before this one several years ago. Protestors blocked a major road in Hong Kong for months. Back then it wasn't about an extradition law -- in fact, it was very populist and anti-Chinese/racist in a way not too dissimilar from right-wing populist movements in other countries. You don't see it get mentioned much, especially here in the West where everyone is 'ROOTING FOR HK'. It left a bad taste in my mouth and made me realize HK isn't all people courageously defending democracy.

Westerners on Reddit making posters glorifying protestors when they have never once even set foot in Hong Kong freaks me out the same way Chinese propaganda posters do. Some of them even LOOK like communist propaganda posters of the past -- whether that's intentional or not I don't know. The propaganda goes both ways.

It's easy to say 'well Chinese people are brainwashed'. Looking at some of the people saying things like this, I wonder whether they are brainwashed just as badly. ESPECIALLY when they are so far removed from the place and situation, and possibly have never been to Asia or met a mainland Chinese person.

What I do know is that some people are more racist than they realize, and others are less 'woke' than they think they are. I just think people need to have cooler heads.
 
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hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
1,061
Chicago, IL
It did but hitlers Germany didn’t implode, they lost the war. Their brainwashing was highly effective and kept most Germans, not only in check, but actively supporting the Reich.
Well Nazi Germany lasted 12 years, way shorter than USSR or communist China. They had to start a war to create a common enemy. East Germany had to put up a wall because propaganda doesn’t work when people can see the other side with their own eyes.
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,600
Well Nazi Germany lasted 12 years, way shorter than USSR or communist China. They had to start a war to create a common enemy. East Germany had to put up a wall because propaganda doesn’t work when people can see the other side with their own eyes.
true and eventually these things will collapse. but propaganda, high economic influence and fear is a powerful cocktail.
 

Marukoban

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,018
I am ethnically Chinese. Not only that, but I lived for Hong Kong for quite some time. I also have friends and family there, some of whom are on opposite sides.

I don't like talking about what's happening in Hong Kong because the situation is more nuanced than people realize.

Lately I've tried to avoid the subject online and on TV, because a lot of this nuance is missing. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I see a lot of anti-China posts that feel like they're using Hong Kong as a way to justify their biases/distrust/fear/hate of China. TV stations are even worse -- they portray protestors like the second coming of Jesus, ignoring the messed up things the protestors are doing.

The situation is just as bad on the other end -- Chinese media coverage can portray protestors as filthy criminals backed by westerners, and focusing entirely on the 'bad' protestors who do some messed up stuff.

The thing I would like to point out to a lot of people, especially online, is that you are not there. Even I, who is much more closely tied to Hong Kong than many of those posting, am hesitant to start rallying to the cause of either side, because the picture is not as clear-cut as people like to make it.

There were large protests before this one several years ago. Protestors blocked a major road in Hong Kong for months. Back then it wasn't about an extradition law -- in fact, it was very populist and anti-Chinese/racist in a way not too dissimilar from right-wing populist movements in other countries. You don't see it get mentioned much, especially here in the West where everyone is 'ROOTING FOR HK'. It left a bad taste in my mouth and made me realize HK isn't all people courageously defending democracy.

Westerners on Reddit making posters glorifying protestors when they have never once even set foot in Hong Kong freaks me out the same way Chinese propaganda posters do. Some of them even LOOK like communist propaganda posters of the past -- whether that's intentional or not I don't know. The propaganda goes both ways.

It's easy to say 'well Chinese people are brainwashed'. Looking at some of the people saying things like this, I wonder whether they are brainwashed just as bad. ESPECIALLY when they are so far removed from the place and situation, and possibly have never been to Asia or met a mainland Chinese person.

What I do know is that some people are more racist than they realize, and others are less 'woke' than they think they are. I just think people need to have cooler heads.
Thanks for putting your view on this matter.
I think what is happening here is that many posters here pretty much only know what western media feeds them and form their opinion based on that only.
It's kinda ironic when people here say about brainwashing when they don't even know the side from HK and China.
There are always 2 sides to a coin and this is also true to HK. Some HKers legit want to stay under China.
I understand for a lot of people, as long as they can live comfortably, it doesn't matter who rules the country.
This does not mean they are brainwashed but they just simply have different priority.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,055
you judge a man by what he does. while mlk understood the nature of anger & frustration, he never practiced violence himself, or encourage anyone else to. there's nothing whitewashed about the fact that the man was a genuine pacifist...
The reason why the civil.rights act got passed was.because of riots after MLK died.


Your shitty whitewashing doesn't change the fact that violence was the thing that scared white people enough to pass the act.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,623
I am ethnically Chinese. Not only that, but I lived in Hong Kong for quite some time. I also have friends and family there, some of whom are on opposite sides.

I don't like talking about what's happening in Hong Kong because the situation is more nuanced than people realize.

Lately I've tried to avoid the subject online and on TV, because a lot of this nuance is missing. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I see a lot of anti-China posts that feel like they're using Hong Kong as a way to justify their biases/distrust/fear/hate of China. TV stations are even worse -- they portray protestors like the second coming of Jesus, ignoring the messed up things the protestors are doing.

The situation is just as bad on the other end -- Chinese media coverage can portray protestors as filthy criminals backed by westerners, and focusing entirely on the 'bad' protestors who do some messed up stuff.

The thing I would like to point out to a lot of people, especially online, is that you are not there. Even I, who is much more closely tied to Hong Kong than many of those posting, am hesitant to start rallying to the cause of either side, because the picture is not as clear-cut as people like to make it.

There were large protests before this one several years ago. Protestors blocked a major road in Hong Kong for months. Back then it wasn't about an extradition law -- in fact, it was very populist and anti-Chinese/racist in a way not too dissimilar from right-wing populist movements in other countries. You don't see it get mentioned much, especially here in the West where everyone is 'ROOTING FOR HK'. It left a bad taste in my mouth and made me realize HK isn't all people courageously defending democracy.

Westerners on Reddit making posters glorifying protestors when they have never once even set foot in Hong Kong freaks me out the same way Chinese propaganda posters do. Some of them even LOOK like communist propaganda posters of the past -- whether that's intentional or not I don't know. The propaganda goes both ways.

It's easy to say 'well Chinese people are brainwashed'. Looking at some of the people saying things like this, I wonder whether they are brainwashed just as badly. ESPECIALLY when they are so far removed from the place and situation, and possibly have never been to Asia or met a mainland Chinese person.

What I do know is that some people are more racist than they realize, and others are less 'woke' than they think they are. I just think people need to have cooler heads.
Where is the nuance in the totalitarian regime killing Muslims and harvesting their organs?
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
222
Where is the nuance in the totalitarian regime killing Muslims and harvesting their organs?
I'm talking about Hong Kong here, the place that I am familiar with, and the issue that I actually have experience with.

The fact that you instantly responded with a soundbite about what is happening in a completely different region about a largely different issue is proving my point.

It's easy to pick up an online megaphone and blare out statements.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,249
New Jersey
Propaganda works regardless of where it is. It works in America too. But the CHinese government really has a stranglehold on information and such, and wield that with deadly force. I dont think there's anything particularly xenophobic about it.

I will stress however, that trying to both sides an open and shut argument with china trying to actively dominate hong kong is not a equitable position. We're arguing imperalism versus non imperalism. Its as cut and dried as could be.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,623
I'm talking about Hong Kong here, the place that I am familiar with, and the issue that I actually have experience with.

The fact that you instantly responded with a soundbite about what is happening in a completely different region about a largely different issue is proving my point.

It's easy to pick up an online megaphone and blare out statements.
I dunno, I feel pretty comfortable voicing my support for the movement that is fighting against a fascist, genocidal, authoritarian world superpower, even if the reasons may not align 100%.

My family fled Hong Kong to avoid the CCP btw, in case you needed some verification to validate my opinion.
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
222
I dunno, I feel pretty comfortable voicing my support for the movement that is fighting against a fascist, genocidal, authoritarian world superpower, even if the reasons may not align 100%.

My family fled Hong Kong to avoid the CCP btw, in case you needed some verification to validate my opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You of course don't need to validate or verify it with me or anyone else! =)

It's easy to think 'party A is bad, party B is fighting against them, so I'll support party B' - but that's pretty simplistic.

There are some people who seem to hate China, so automatically back HK, regardless of what they actually know about the HK issue. That's the lack of nuance I'm talking about.

Blindly backing or supporting somebody just because you hate the same things is dangerous, and makes you ripe for manipulation yourself. Lots of military dictators, terrorist groups, and pretty fucked up people came to power due to backing from countries who thought 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

Not saying that's the case with you in particular -- but I've definitely started seeing it a lot online. It's worrying because it shows many operate on knee-jerk reaction and emotion rather than actual assessment of the situation.

Sometimes I feel like proper research about issues has been replaced by driveby memes. Instead of taking the time to form a well thought-out opinion, people would rather shout out soundbites and post memes without applying an ounce of critical thought.
 
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boy power

Member
Jul 29, 2019
134
There are lots of people who hate China, so automatically back HK, regardless of what they actually know. That's the lack of nuance I'm talking about.
So what should we know? I know that China is pressuring companies globally not to support Hong Kong.
You seem to have some information that might make this all fine and dandy, so go ahead and share it.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,124
I am ethnically Chinese. Not only that, but I lived in Hong Kong for quite some time. I also have friends and family there, some of whom are on opposite sides.

I don't like talking about what's happening in Hong Kong because the situation is more nuanced than people realize.

Lately I've tried to avoid the subject online and on TV, because a lot of this nuance is missing. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I see a lot of anti-China posts that feel like they're using Hong Kong as a way to justify their biases/distrust/fear/hate of China. TV stations are even worse -- they portray protestors like the second coming of Jesus, ignoring the messed up things the protestors are doing.

The situation is just as bad on the other end -- Chinese media coverage can portray protestors as filthy criminals backed by westerners, and focusing entirely on the 'bad' protestors who do some messed up stuff.

The thing I would like to point out to a lot of people, especially online, is that you are not there. Even I, who is much more closely tied to Hong Kong than many of those posting, am hesitant to start rallying to the cause of either side, because the picture is not as clear-cut as people like to make it.

There were large protests before this one several years ago. Protestors blocked a major road in Hong Kong for months. Back then it wasn't about an extradition law -- in fact, it was very populist and anti-Chinese/racist in a way not too dissimilar from right-wing populist movements in other countries. You don't see it get mentioned much, especially here in the West where everyone is 'ROOTING FOR HK'. It left a bad taste in my mouth and made me realize HK isn't all people courageously defending democracy.

Westerners on Reddit making posters glorifying protestors when they have never once even set foot in Hong Kong freaks me out the same way Chinese propaganda posters do. Some of them even LOOK like communist propaganda posters of the past -- whether that's intentional or not I don't know. The propaganda goes both ways.

It's easy to say 'well Chinese people are brainwashed'. Looking at some of the people saying things like this, I wonder whether they are brainwashed just as badly. ESPECIALLY when they are so far removed from the place and situation, and possibly have never been to Asia or met a mainland Chinese person.

What I do know is that some people are more racist than they realize, and others are less 'woke' than they think they are. I just think people need to have cooler heads.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience here. I’ve recently heard similar things from multiple people in real life who have ties to Hong Kong. It seems like the more connected you are to the situation, the less likely you are to view it as a black/white scenario.
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
222
So what should we know? I know that China is pressuring companies globally not to support Hong Kong.
You seem to have some information that might make this all fine and dandy, so go ahead and share it.
My whole point is that this isn't binary. You can dislike China and its tactics, but you don't have to support the protestors either. Likewise, you could have 0 problems with how China is treating the situation while at the same time feeling like the protests are valid and have a point.

This isn't an all or nothing equation. Supporting one doesn't mean you have to be against the other and vice-versa.

I really don't want to start getting into specific details/events/etc. I just think people should do their research, come to the best possible opinion they can, and act on it if they want to.

My issue isn't with people having opinions and voicing them online. My issue is people who just go by what they heard or read at a surface level, don't go any further than that, and decide to start shouting stuff online.
 
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alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
462
I am ethnically Chinese. Not only that, but I lived in Hong Kong for quite some time. I also have friends and family there, some of whom are on opposite sides.

I don't like talking about what's happening in Hong Kong because the situation is more nuanced than people realize.

Lately I've tried to avoid the subject online and on TV, because a lot of this nuance is missing. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I see a lot of anti-China posts that feel like they're using Hong Kong as a way to justify their biases/distrust/fear/hate of China. TV stations are even worse -- they portray protestors like the second coming of Jesus, ignoring the messed up things the protestors are doing.

The situation is just as bad on the other end -- Chinese media coverage can portray protestors as filthy criminals backed by westerners, and focusing entirely on the 'bad' protestors who do some messed up stuff.

The thing I would like to point out to a lot of people, especially online, is that you are not there. Even I, who is much more closely tied to Hong Kong than many of those posting, am hesitant to start rallying to the cause of either side, because the picture is not as clear-cut as people like to make it.

There were large protests before this one several years ago. Protestors blocked a major road in Hong Kong for months. Back then it wasn't about an extradition law -- in fact, it was very populist and anti-Chinese/racist in a way not too dissimilar from right-wing populist movements in other countries. You don't see it get mentioned much, especially here in the West where everyone is 'ROOTING FOR HK'. It left a bad taste in my mouth and made me realize HK isn't all people courageously defending democracy.

Westerners on Reddit making posters glorifying protestors when they have never once even set foot in Hong Kong freaks me out the same way Chinese propaganda posters do. Some of them even LOOK like communist propaganda posters of the past -- whether that's intentional or not I don't know. The propaganda goes both ways.

It's easy to say 'well Chinese people are brainwashed'. Looking at some of the people saying things like this, I wonder whether they are brainwashed just as badly. ESPECIALLY when they are so far removed from the place and situation, and possibly have never been to Asia or met a mainland Chinese person.

What I do know is that some people are more racist than they realize, and others are less 'woke' than they think they are. I just think people need to have cooler heads.
People generally already understand that mass protests aren't always going to be perfect and will have collateral damage. That's just how most mass protests are. I don't think that should change how a person views a protest.

And I don't really understand the link with other protests. Of course people are going to support protests in an area that they agree with and not support the ones that they don't agree with.

So your points of "nuance" so far, are that some protesters do bad things and these recent protest may be somehow linked (I welcome you to post a link to information showing this, I'd be interested in seeing it) to another racist protest. Those aren't really strong points to me for reasons I've outlined above. Maybe you have other points because like you said, you've been there before. As of right now though, my understanding is that we have the Chinese government on one side pressuring people in foreign countries to prevent them expressing their free speech about the issue, and Hong Kong protesters on the other generally fighting for democracy. Maybe there's more to this that I'm missing, but as of right now I don't think you've demonstrated that.

Also I don't think anyone should blankly call all of a nation's citizens brainwashed, however, when a nation actively censors mass amounts of content, has a stranglehold on national media, punishes people economically and legally for political speech and actively has re-education camps then that nation is engaging in brainwashing. Obviously people have different political views there, but brainwashing attempts are occurring.
 

The Boat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
794
I'm not disagreeing that brainwashing exists. I'm questioning its effectiveness.
From what I hear and know from my Chinese friends from Tianjin, Beijing, Macao and Hong Kong as well as my Portuguese friends who lived and live there, it's absolutely effective. They have many friends and family members who are absolutely indoctrinated. Of course, they also have many who are not, especially young people.
 
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Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,637
Am I the only one who's a bit disconcerted with the amount of bashing that Asians/Chinese people are getting in certain gaming related spaces (ie Reddit, Steam, and other gaming forums) recently with the controversies around Epic/Tencent/Blizzard? I'm as opposed to Chinese authoritarianism as anybody, but the amount of times I see "Chinese are all brainwashed" or "government stooges" thrown around makes me deeply uncomfortable. Luckily I've not seen that sort of thing thrown around here and as an Asian American I'm grateful.

Once again I haven't noticed it here and I'm thankful.
They are brainwashed...using pretty well documented brainwashing methods...

My own sister in law, who is Chinese, has said as much. It's terrifying.

Everyone I know who says these things is also in favor of Hong Kong who are also "Chinese," too.