That's true yeah. The CCP will use any excuse to put them down, regardless of how people talk about it. Their aim is to erode away the present way of life for Hong Kongers until they are the same as the mainland.
Ahh I get you.
Xi Jinping warns efforts to divide China will end in 'crushed bodies and shattered bones'
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I'm not seeing where the idiom 粉身碎骨 is used in your link. Of course I know about Tiananmen. It was nothing less than an atrocity. I repeat, this expression has no direct connection to Tiananmen. In Chinese idioms are basically words in that literal meaning of the individual characters aren't considered when presented with the four-character gestalt (this may not be entirely accurate since I'm by no means a Chinese scholar, just a speaker). So it's strong language. It implies government action, no doubt violent in nature. But to say it's meant as a direct reference to Tiananmen seems unlikely.
I can infer from this that you don't speak Chinese, which means you'd be uniquely uninformed on the issue of whether the translation is faithful to how Chinese speakers would hear and understand the expression used here.
Your basis for saying that it is unnecessary to distinguish between the connotation of the English translation and the original Chinese is thus... no basis at all.
You're unable to distinguish between the conversation you think you're engaged in and the conversation you're actually engaged in. Perhaps the smugness acts as a barrier.
Well, shit. If you work in Anime and have any understanding of Japanese and how they also love to use 4 character idioms (yoji-juku-go), then you should easily understand how they are almost never meant to interpreted literally, but are used as expressions.
And of course Xi Jinping is threatening violence. When has a country not threatened violence against those who would try to tear their nation apart? The only thing in contention here is if he meant, in English context, something closer to "there will be grave consequences," / "things will not go well for them," or if he literally said, "we will crush their bodies and shatter their bones."
Yeah, I do get it! That's part of why this thread has been so frustrating, lmao. People read what he said in either reading and honestly come to the same "I'll fuck you up" understanding of the phrase. For me the importance rests in Xi, the speaker. Contextually I think the idiom played straight is fine because that is almost literally what he is threatening to retaliate with, even if he didn't "mean" it. It's like saying Trump's joking when he only said a phrase in a joking manner. (Which is a comparison I wish I'd thought of much sooner because it is hella apt in terms of the political nature of this speech and speaks to why it being used the way it has been in this thread is buggin' me.)
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Of course the English-language article doesn't contain that idiom. It's written in English. Changing the language to zhCN removes access to the article.
You'll note that I said
IF
Xi said that idiom or something very similar, it's clear what he means.
I was talking about the Chinese-language reference in the section you quoted. Sorry for not being clear.
That's okay. Are you referring to (I believe it's) citation 138?
So Trump supporters make an effort to understand / understand the nuisances of a language that can get lost in translation? Also would Trump supporters know the history of Tiananmen massacre?
Scroll up to my most recent post on this page and you'll know why I referenced Trump supporters.
And no, I am just fucking horrible at history. And edit placement.I'll go fix that last part right now. Yes, for some reason it went in the middle of the post and not the bottom. I a m overtired. As far as history is concerned i'm wearing a dunce cap for the rest of this thread
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Uh, as a native Chinese I have to say, Chinese leaders overly use this idiom 粉身碎骨 all the time. It’s typical rigid propaganda language, just like ‘American is paper tiger’， ‘Look, American is lifting stone to crush their own feet again!’, etc, etc.
Whenever a Chinese leader want to show his resolve to keep the country united, he would say something about ‘crushed bodies and shattered bones’. Yeah it’s violent language, but it’s not really news worthy, at least for Chinese audience. It’s impossible to speculate his military plan or true intention through this sentence, because this idiom is nearly always used in formalistic speech.
Whenever a Chinese leader want to show his resolve to keep the country united, he would say something about ‘crushed bodies and shattered bones’. Yeah it’s violent language, but it’s not really news worthy, at least for Chinese audience. It’s impossible to speculate his military plan or true intention through this sentence, because this idiom is nearly always used in formalistic speech.
You're making a complete fool of yourself arguing about semantics in a language you have no fucking clue about. It's an idiom, it has its meaning, pull your head out of your ass.
Edit: i see you've finally conceded but it took 6 blood-boiling pages to get to this point.
Actually, I think they know very well. I feel that Aestivalis just wants us to note that there exists a broad range of ways of killing people who are a threat to the party. They could be hanged, or shot, or quartered, burned alive, dissolved in acid, executed by a guillotine, electrocuted, poisoned, exploded, boiled to death and of course crucified.
We shouldn't restrict our imagination just to "getting crushed and and their bones shattering".
I feel this is a very valuable and constructive point on their part.
I never argued it didn't have it's meaning or wasn't an idiom. If that's how you took my contributions in the thread then on behalf of the me that exists in your head whom is undoubtedly an idiot, I apologize.
You know it's possible to have a discussion without insulting people like this?
Oh good! Someone more qualified than me. I pulled a quote from Reuters a while back:
"路透北京10月13日 - 中国国家主席习近平周日表示，任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想。"
Now, if I'm understanding the text correctly, it's saying that the "results will be parted bodies and shattered bones", not so much "those who seek to divide China", correct? The victims of the violence are left deliberately vague?
You don't even have to speak Chinese to consider yourself an authority on the Chinese language here now, you just love to see it.
No, Reuters' translation is more accurate: 'Anyone attempting to split China in any part of the country will end in crushed bodies and shattered bones '. In more plain words: Those who try to split the country will fail miserably
Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Hong Kong all deserve to be free and independent of the PRC.
Curiously Carrie Lam used the same idiom back in August, asking if the protestors want to push HK down a road with no return. Although in that context, it is used mostly to garner sympathy.
That's your opinion. You're free to have it.
It's crazy to think the PRC will sit back and let this happen without a fight.
If Texas and Hawaii both independently declared secession, and had the support of the Chinese government and Chinese citizens, it would not be weird for DC to react poorly. Hell, if even only CA declared independence and the Chinese government supported the idea, then the rest of the country-- including TX, that loves the idea of secession themselves--would lose their freaking minds. I mean, even without the support of foreign countries, it would not be well received, but throw on a hostile foreign country that's best interest is the weakening of our country? Would look a lot shadier.
The US fought a bloody, awful civil war over this very issue. Half the country wanted out. The US wasn't just fighting to abolish slavery, it was fighting to preserve the union.
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SG-17 literally wants the US to annex Canada to fight the upcoming resource wars lmao I wouldn't take geopolitical advice from this guy
Who gives a fuck really? Whatabout Texas, whatabout the US Civil War, etc? None of it matters in the slightest with China's situation. They conquered Tibet in the 1950s.
We didn't let Imperial Japan keep the areas it conquered, all support and effort should be given to the separatist movements in the PRC.
Adding to that, we all know that historically splitting up a large country into several ethnic ones all worked out great. No genocide or unending regional conflict whatsoever. Absolutely not.
Did I just read six fucking pages of a non-Chinese speaker mansplaining to Chinese posters about their language and history? Jesus christ, if that ain't some kwai lo shit then I don't know what is.
People in the mainland definitely think that. The state media has been quite happy to show clips of Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley in Hong Kong, but as far as I can tell they still stick to the "terrorists and criminals" phrasing of before, and haven't really went all in on that "foreign agitators" angle, though I'm sure that will come too at some point.
The HK government certainly implied that, though I'm not sure if they straight up came out and said that.
To be clear, this is all bullshit, though I don't think anyone in this thread by that line.
If you don't want to bring up other countries, then don't. You're the one bringing up Tibet, Mongolia, etc. I'm trying to provide a frame of reference for your thoughts by giving an example even you could understand as a basis for comparison.
Also, the Okinawans would like to have a word with you.
Again, you are perfectly free to believe that the separatist movements should succeed. Some people in Catalonia of Spain and Quebec of Canada also have lots of opinions about that sort of stuff too.
I imagine if companies bailed on China and stocks tanked and people’s retirement savings etc dip everyone would melt down no? People have principles until they have to pay for it.And yet western companies still want to do business there.
Remember, him and others spout this kind of threatening repulsive language but can't handle any kind of criticism.
Hey guys it's just an expression of death. Not to mention a direct threat. But don't take it literally even though they literally have done it and are chomping at the bit to do it again.
Would you want to be poorer just so that... wait, what does companies pulling out China meant to achieve again?
I found this somewhat interesting, but here's a Japanese blog post summarizing some Japanese translations/reactions.
Seems even a lot of them took it to be literal and are talking about how Xi Jinping seems to think himself to have become an emperor and probably means it literally rather than metaphorically, with plenty of references to Tiananmen Square as well with others pointing out that it's not meant to be taken literally... Was just interesting to me to see basically the same discussion happening in the Japanese web.
Seems even a lot of them took it to be literal and are talking about how Xi Jinping seems to think himself to have become an emperor and probably means it literally rather than metaphorically, with plenty of references to Tiananmen Square as well with others pointing out that it's not meant to be taken literally... Was just interesting to me to see basically the same discussion happening in the Japanese web.
I don't know about the others at the moment but the protesters in Hong Kong aren't trying to be "free and independent of the PRC". They just want what was promised to them in the handover which is the right to elect the legislative council and chief executive as well as universal suffrage.
It isn't a separatist movement and language like that isn't helpful.
Because even though Japanese and Chinese have the same saying, it's far from being translatable here.
And what can I say about yahoo jp's translation here... ultra violent? 体を打ち砕かれ骨は粉々にされて死ぬ is like reading some shonen jump fight scene.
I had a quick look at this site and it seems to be a #gamergate place which is really not surprising.
Damn I just can't resist to come back to this thread.
Yeah, it one of the comments was, マンガやアニメの邪悪なラスボスそのものだな (sounds just like an evil last boss from a manga or anime). Then again, the 4-character idiom does also exist in Japanese. ふんこつさいしん and seems to be typically used with "prepared to" like in 粉骨砕身の覚悟を持って～ to mean that you will do your best effort/give it your all without a care to your own bodily harm.
That basically describes most of the Japanese Internet, honestly.
I guess it's close to 一生懸命. 粉骨砕身 had that same use in ancient Chinese, which I believe was mentioned a few pages back, but it's mostly lost nowadays.
No because it is an idiom that's not meant to be taken literally in a regular sentence. Which is what people who know Chinese have been explaining over and over in the thread. He is definitely threatening people but the English translation certainly portrays the sentence differently.
