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SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,163
-- Spoilers for Yakuza 0 and the first 3 chapters of Yakuza Kiwami/Yakuza 1 --

Over the last week and a half I played through Yakuza 0, and it was my first Yakuza game. I absolutely loved it. So many great characters, a script with a great localization, and so smartly designed in so many ways. It really was a tremendous experience. Aside from a dragging a bit in the middle chapters, I really only had one thing that rubbed me the wrong way, and that was what happened to the characters right at the end during the epilogue cutscenes. Now as I said, I had never played another Yakuza game before, but even I could see just how clumsily the game pushed Kiryu and Majima into essentially their starting positions for the beginning of the original Yakuza, complete with what must be their original outfits. Specifically:
  • Kiryu's decision to rejoin the Dojima Family, despite them being the villains I just spent 45 hours trying to stop
  • Majima's decision to leave Makoto
  • Majima all of a sudden becoming 'crazy'
None of these things felt like the logical next steps for these characters given everything that came before. And sure enough, when I finally started Kiwami, the inconsistencies between the original game's story and Yakuza 0 only grew more jarring:
  • Papa Dojima really out here snatching up women off the street by himself??
  • Nishiki is not only a villain, but he also kills someone like immediately, despite Nishiki being the one at the climax of Yakuza 0 to talk down Kiryu from ending Shibusawa, despite all of the crazy evil shit Shibusawa has done
  • Who the fuck is Yumi
  • Majima also almost killing a dude but is stopped by Kiryu. Again, at the climax of Yakuza 0, Majima has every reason to kill Lao Gui and Dojima, but Sera talks him down. Again, this is supposed to be the line that once crossed, you can't come back from.
And this is all on top of the obviously more dated gameplay of Kiwami, which I assume hews fairly close to the original PS2 game, compared to Yakuza 0. But I think I'd have a much easier time looking past the dated gameplay if this story felt like a true successor to the story present in Yakuza 0.

Now, I know I'm comparing a game from 2005 to a game from 2015 (I believe these are the original Japanese release dates of the original game and Yakuza 0) and obviously games have come a long way since then. But what I'm hoping someone can tell me is whether the versions of the characters seen in Yakuza 0 are specific to that game only? Or, and this is what I'm hoping is the case - as the games came out over time, are these the characters that formed over time, as the Yakuza team grew as storytellers and fleshed out more and more of these characters and the world? In other words, if I push on and get to the later games in the series, will the characters eventually resemble their incarnations from Yakuza 0? Like, I believe Yakuza 5 was the last game before Yakuza 0 right, so how is the storytelling in Yakuza 5 compared to Yakuza 0? Much closer to Yakuza 0 I hope?
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
France
Yeah, Kiwami really isn't very good.

I don't know about the other games, but characters are already much more interesting in Kiwami 2.

Pretty sure Zero remains GOAT when it comes to writing though.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
i also recently went through this

apparently its a conversation thats been going on for years now (we're super late to this party) and i read some amount of reasoning for it that made it a little less rough

but majima specifically still felt really odd i agree
 

Rikucrafter

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 28, 2017
900
Australia
Majima's "transformation" becomes a lot clearer and more justified the further you go into the games.
(I believe it's Yakuza 5 that has the answers that will make you feel satisfied)
 

dedhead54

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,983
Yeah, I played Zero first and knew nothing about the series, totally loved it. Downloaded Kiwami shortly thereafter and dropped it after a few hours. Just didn't feel the same.

Maybe I need to give it another shot.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,920
The tonal dissonance between goofball Sidequest Majima and legit bad guy Main Story Majima in Kiwami makes me chuckle.

Like, I can't bash the game for not flowing with the prequel that was written way later than the original, but its amusing to note how far the series has come since its origin.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,791
Yup. Yakuza 1 isn't a very good game to begin with and they really didn't do enough narratively to update it coming off of 0 so it feels incredibly jarring, ESPECIALLY as pertains to Majima.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,640
Majima has always been outwardly crazy but low key insightful and honest. What you saw in zero was the the exact inverse of what he's always been and what he's always going to be if you continue through the franchise --An outwardly crazy and brutal man.

Kiryu is forever at odds and at the same time 'with' the Tojo clan. That pretty much never changes.

Nishki's turn is well explained in Kiwami 1 if you continue.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
You're not wrong. Kiryu re-joining the Dojima Family and Majima just deciding to live his own way, and then just seven years later, he's crazy (even sadistic) by the time the events of the first game roll around... it's jarring and weird. Being that there's seven years between the end of 0 and the start of 1, I think it'd have been nice if they left some things to the imagination instead of hastily getting the characters into positions they don't yet even need to be in.

Oh, and if I remember correctly, Yumi is away at college during the events of 0. It's kind of a throwaway line early on, so I don't blame you for having forgotten it.
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
The main issue is perhaps Yakuza 1 being perhaps the bleakest in the franchise, and was more influenced by local Yakuza movies than anything.

It's actually worse following up Yakuza 0 because the characters that die in Yakuza 1 were fleshed out much more in Yakuza 0, so them biting the dust in 1 was much more heartbreaking indeed. Kiwami 1 is basically Kiryu's life going down the shitter up to the end credits. Following games are much more upbeat in comparison.

The tonal shifts that many like the series for now did not happen until around Yakuza 2 and Yakuza 3. The change in Majima's character was one of the more drastic elements, going from basically being "The Joker" to somebody who actually cared about Kiryu in a more loveably bizarre way

Personally, Majima Everywhere and the Nishki flashbacks save the game, as do a few bonus substories that weren' tin the original.

I would at least try out Kiwami 2. It really only goes up from there.
 

Spinky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,112
London
As a newcomer who finished Yakuza 0 a few weeks ago and is currently on chapter 9 of Kiwami, the differences are jarring for sure. The outdated gameplay and cutscene direction I can live with, the worst thing to me is Majima's change in personality. I knew it was coming, but mans was the fucking coolest in 0 and now he's this total goofball. I get that this is what he originally was and still is, but the whiplash is real. While very entertaining he's a completely different character, and I became really attached to the 0 version (much better design, too). Every time the dialogue references how he used to run a cabaret club back in the day or something I damn near wanna cry. Goddamn I miss that dude.

I don't even get the whole Kiryu-chan thing or why he's so in love with him, when he said it in the 0 post-credits scene I was baffled. Just came off as a cute little nod thrown in for long-time fans, people like me had absolutely no idea how things got to that point. I was shocked they never actually met during the main story.

I'm dying to get to Kiwami 2 because I know there's at least a little something for 0 Majima fans there.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,044
Well, for 0's ending, three things:

1. Yeah, Kiryu returning to the Dojima Family was a little "Kiryu wtf" at a first glance, but it accomplishes a few things. First, and this is something you'll learn about Kiryu as the series goes along; he, for better or for worst, likes living life on hard difficulty. Plus, Kazama initially pushed him into the Dojima Family, and Kiryu is just like "alright cool." Plus, it's not like Dojima himself is going to mess with Kiryu and his massive failure with the Empty Lot probably haunted Dojima until the literal end of his days. For Kiryu, it's a matter of "I started out in this family, and I'm going to end it on my terms."

2. Majima's decision to leave Makoto actually makes perfect sense. Majima painfully learned that being in the yakuza is what he wants to do above all else (for reasons that won't become entirely clear until Yakuza 4). No sense on potentially putting Makoto in danger. And this entire arc gets some much needed closure in Kiwami 2, so hang in there.

3. Majima becoming crazy is.... yeah, it's a consequence of Yakuza 1's writing and characterization.

4. As far as Nishiki... have you gotten far enough in the game where you've done all of his flashbacks? Because, I mean... if anything these added Nishiki flashbacks in Kiwami do a lot to explain how and why Nishiki is such a bastard now.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,590
Majima's craziness is an affectation, one that becomes clearer in the series but isn't, like, unexplained between 0 and 1/Kiwami. He was played like a fiddle in 0 by his family patriarch because they knew exactly how he would react, so he decided to become inexplicable and unpredictable. That's it. It's not as confusing as people keep wanting to make it.

Papa Dojima really out here snatching up women off the street by himself??

At the end of 0, his star has fallen, and he becomes an empty suit. If not for Kiryu, he'd be nothing.

Nishiki is not only a villain, but he also kills someone like immediately, despite Nishiki being the one at the climax of Yakuza 0 to talk down Kiryu from ending Shibusawa, despite all of the crazy evil shit Shibusawa has done

Edit: I just realized we are talking about different scenes. Nishiki is explained better, but he killed Dojima in self-defense.

If anything, it reinforces the idea that once you kill, you can't come back.

Majima also almost killing a dude but is stopped by Kiryu. Again, at the climax of Yakuza 0, Majima has every reason to kill Lao Gui and Dojima, but Sera talks him down. Again, this is supposed to be the line that once crossed, you can't come back from.

Majima has no problem with killing, he was ready to go on a murder spree with his sworn brother before the events of Yakuza 0. He was ready to kill Shimano if it came between him and Makoto. Sera convinced him not to drag Makoto down to hell with him, because it was in Sera's interests not to start a murder war within the Tojo clan.

Majima's decision to leave Makoto

Play Kiwami 2, but again, 0 does a good enough job explaining this? He's a hardcore gangster and he doesn't want her life tainted by him. It's not like he was happy about it, but he would rather sacrifice his feelings for her innocence and safety.

Kiryu's decision to rejoin the Dojima Family, despite them being the villains I just spent 45 hours trying to stop
The politics of the Tojo clan at work! In the end, Kiryu wanted to rise up to the ranks Kazama did, because Kiryu has a pathological need to do everything Kazama did. Dojima was a wounded puppy and wasn't able to move against Kiryu, especially with Kazama and Sera protecting him. There's actually no other safer family for him to be in.
 

Derachi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,699
I've been replaying Kiwami recently for the first time since it came out and yeah, it's really not very good. I'm also playing it on Legend difficulty which is frankly the most unfair and bullshit thing I've ever had to do. Zero on Legend felt hard but fair. Kiwami on Legend is just terrible.

To respond to some of your points:

- Kiryu rejoins the Dojima clan because... uhh... he needed to be there for Yakuza 1/Kiwami. That's really it.
- Majima left Makoto because he wanted what's best for her. She finally had an opportunity to live a normal civilian life, and he would only get her involved with his life of crime if he stuck around.
- Majima is sort of like this for the rest of the series. His Character in 1 is kinda rough (made better by his Majima Everywhere encounters but still not great) but later on he settles down a bit again. His reasoning for going crazy is that he was inspired by the worst character in Zero, Nishitani, to live his own way and go nuts. I guess.

-Dojima is a scumbag. Always has been, always will be.
-Nishiki killing someone is supposed to be shocking. This is going to answer your next point as well, but he did it to defend Yumi. Yumi is a girl that grew up in the same orphanage as Kiryu and Nishiki. Nishiki has feelings for her but she clearly has feelings for Kiryu. Kiryu is an awkward goofball who doesn't know what love is so he can't tell.
-Yeah, Majima almost killing a dude is.. weird after Zero.

I still think Yakuza Zero, despite the few flaws, is my favourite video game of all time. Kiwami, here on my second playthrough, is rapidly descending to the bottom of my Yakuza rankings. Now that I've since played them all, I know how good they can be, so going back to Kiwami has been hard. I'll say this: if you don't want to suffer through it, please don't let this game stop your Yakuza journey. Watch the cutscenes on Youtube or something and skip to Kiwami 2.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,027
Australia
It's the one reason why I wouldn't recommend to start with Yakuza 0. Like all prequels, they had to fudge some stuff to give the game reason to exist. Although I feel like Y0 did add a lot of much needed characterisation for Nishikayama.

You should also remember that the two games are almost two decades apart in the timeline so there's plenty of reason for characters to change.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
the resounding majority answer to the eternal "where do i start with yakuza" is always 0

ive never seen otherwise
I get that it been "easier" to do so until these recent re releases. It's somewhat different than film because it was harder to play the older games and the format was older. But I always am adamant personally that when something is created in a linear fashion it should be played that way. No one expected 0 to ever be made when the series started. It exists as official fan fiction and takes into account every long time fan ideas and questions concerning the previous games. It answers questions and set things up that you don't even realize if you play it first. And yes, the rest will probably be more disappointing in their simplicity afterwards. ten years from now, all access being equal, Zero should not be played first, just like the SW prequels should not be viewed first, etc.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
The Yakuza series didn't hit its stride until Yakuza 2. Looking at the series overall the first game is a real outlier in terms of the quality of storytelling and characters. Unfortunately I don't think a true ground-up remake was ever in the cards for Kiwami (it's basically the same game on a new engine, with a couple of new scenes), which is a shame because it could really have used it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
Yakuza 0 does work to set up the Majima in the following games. This is a lot more apparent if Yakuza 0 isn't your first title in the series.
Though, Majima isn't particularly great or well developed in Yakuza 1.
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
The tonal dissonance between goofball Sidequest Majima and legit bad guy Main Story Majima in Kiwami makes me chuckle.

Like, I can't bash the game for not flowing with the prequel that was written way later than the original, but its amusing to note how far the series has come since its origin.

The best part was Kiryu seeing Majima get shot and fall in the ocean and basically not even care in the slightest, even though I'm suppose to have some comradery with the guy in the side-quests.

the resounding majority answer to the eternal "where do i start with yakuza" is always 0

ive never seen otherwise

It's because the Kiwami games were updated in the perception that the player already played Yakuza 0, generally in terms of the newer sub stories and side content.

Only do release order if you plan on playing the PS2 games.
 

SneerfulOwl

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,873
Yakuza 5 explains the reason why Majima did not hook up with Makoto as it explored his background a bit more.

He has ex-wife before the event of Y0 but never got over her
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,550
One of the worst things about 0 was not including Yumi. They had the perfect chance to flesh out her relationship with Kiryu and Nishiki.

I don't see Majima's change as being all that jarring. After the events of 0 of course he'd want to be less predictable in oder to avoid being used again. And he sure as hell wouldn't want Makoto close to the Yakuza lifestyle so he left her.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
One of the worst things about 0 was not including Yumi. They had the perfect chance to flesh out her relationship with Kiryu and Nishiki.
yeah it made no sense not to include her

i can't imagine what it'd be like going from 0 to kiwami. i love the first yakuza even though i think kiwami is a bad remake, but tonally it's so different. 0 worked a lot better for me when i already knew where these characters were going because i didn't have that tonal whiplash

0 is great but, outside of some of the big story beats, it feels incongruous with a lot that comes after it
 

selo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,108
Yup, played through Zero (PC), loveeed it. I was excited to start Kiwami, but I got tired of it real quick, it wasn't on Zero's level (yes, i Know Zero was made after kiwami), so I dropped it, not sure if I'll go back to it.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,433
man, this is really making me want to start yakuza 3 remaster since I finished 0, Kiwami and Kiwami 2...

yeah it made no sense not to include her

i can't imagine what it'd be like going from 0 to kiwami. i love the first yakuza even though i think kiwami is a bad remake, but tonally it's so different. 0 worked a lot better for me when i already knew where these characters were going because i didn't have that tonal whiplash

0 is great but, outside of some of the big story beats, it feels incongruous with a lot that comes after it

I won't lie, it's not great. I mainlined my way through the story. As a previous poster said, the Majima Everywhere stuff at least keeps it interesting gameplay wise, and the story is fun enough.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
The Yakuza series didn't hit its stride until Yakuza 2. Looking at the series overall the first game is a real outlier in terms of the quality of storytelling and characters. Unfortunately I don't think a true ground-up remake was ever in the cards for Kiwami (it's basically the same game on a new engine, with a couple of new scenes), which is a shame because it could really have used it.
i disagree with this completely. the first game's story is great and is the perfect foundation for the series to build off of. it's just of it's time, and the way it was recreated with kiwami didn't do it any favours

man, this is really making me want to start yakuza 3 remaster since I finished 0, Kiwami and Kiwami 2...
you should! it's one of the best

you can play golf
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
I was more frustrated in the gameplay area. The lack of cabaret and how side content fell smaller. Kiwami 2 brings it back I read.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
zero is a new game (With the benefit of hindsight in regards to its characterizations)
kiwami is mainly a remake of the OG yakuza with some tweak mechanics and a new coat of paint.

this is equivalent to a kid watching star wars ep3 and the epic fight between obi wan and anakin at the end and their dramatic conflict and hyped about what's next and then experiencing the 'lightsaber pokes', calm demeanor when vader faced obi wan and obi wan calling vader 'darth' in ep4 and exclaiming a 'wut?'. (before anyone @ me, i like ep4 more than ep3).
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
yeah it made no sense not to include her

i can't imagine what it'd be like going from 0 to kiwami. i love the first yakuza even though i think kiwami is a bad remake, but tonally it's so different. 0 worked a lot better for me when i already knew where these characters were going because i didn't have that tonal whiplash

0 is great but, outside of some of the big story beats, it feels incongruous with a lot that comes after it
Yakuza 0 wasn't my first Yakuza, but I did play Kiwami straight after 0 and...I didn't really see any problem? I knew going in that Kiwami was going to be odd given that's a straight remake of the original with some added scenes for Nishiyama's descent and Majima Everywhere giving Majima more to do outside of what few scenes he actually has in Kiwami. Beyond that, it felt pretty natural going from 0 to Kiwami because so many of the characters that appear in Kiwami are more fleshed out in 0.
 

KiLAM

Member
Jan 25, 2018
1,610
Isn't there a 10 year gap between end of 0 and beginning of kiwami 1? Maybe more stuff happens with Majima in that period that we don't know off. Would love a Yakuza 0-2 with Majima as main protagonist.
 

JustJavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,116
New Zealand
Just finished 0 and giving myself a few days before I start Kiwami. Should I prepare myself for a dissapointment? Really enjoyed the story, the location and pretty much everything in Y0. I also enjoyed the Majima src way more than Kiryu's.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Just finished 0 and giving myself a few days before I start Kiwami. Should I prepare myself for a dissapointment? Really enjoyed the story, the location and pretty much everything in Y0. I also enjoyed the Majima src way more than Kiryu's.
Just keep in mind that Kiwami is a smaller game given that it's a straight remake of the original PS2 game. If you're familiar with 0's combat, you should be right at home, though.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,433
also because of this thread i watched the majima stuff from kiwami 2 again. that sidestory gameplay wise was very boring but man, these cutscenes. goddamn crying
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
Just finished 0 and giving myself a few days before I start Kiwami. Should I prepare myself for a dissapointment? Really enjoyed the story, the location and pretty much everything in Y0. I also enjoyed the Majima src way more than Kiryu's.

Yes. Or at the very least, keep your expectations in check. Gameplay also has a noticeably different feel and enemies have a habit of tanking more. Yakuza 1 tends to be more of a rough patch when playing through the series.

Just keep in mind it is a remake of a 2005 PS2 game and be prepared for lots and lots of enemies with guns.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
Given that the original game (the first in the series) was one of the most expensive projects SEGA ever funded at the time, I always felt like everyone essentially passing away in Yakuza 1 was the result of "we don't know if we'll be able to make a sequel, best to not leave anything not concluded."

Kind of like how the first Devil May Cry literally has you fighting the King of the Underworld for the final boss because they didn't know if that would get a sequel, and every subsequent main antagonist afterward hasn't felt as powerful as a result.

Ultimately, I still like Kiwami a lot, but SEGA's decision to make that game an almost exact remake of the original, with the exception of adding Majima Everywhere and keeping Yakuza 0's combat, is still weird to me to this day, and is why the game has the flaws that it does; it really is just a PS2 game that looks nice.

Gladly, Kiwami 2 managed to avoid these issues for the most part, which made that the much better remake as a result.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Papa Dojima really out here snatching up women off the street by himself??
From what I gathered and can recall, Dojima lured Yumi up to his office, and him being Kiryu and Nishiki's big bad yakuza patriarch, she obviously wasn't really in a position to refuse his advances. With what you already know of Dojima from 0, and what you'll further learn of his backstory in 2, it's completely in-line with the type of person he is: a total scumbag.
It's like any series/films, always play/view in release order.
Release order doesn't help: either way, you'll still eventually have to see the suave manager of the Grand become the snakeskin jacket wearing lunatic, and it's not really a gradual transformation.

Also, as someone else had said already, release order only works if you intend to play the PS2 games. If you start with Kiwami 1 and 2 as replacements for the PS2 games, both of those games (especially K2) are absolutely meant to be played after 0, not before.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,433
I do like how Zero reverses the apparent dynamic majima and kiryu have for the rest of the series, where in Zero Kiryu is impulsive and hotheaded while Majima is more cold and calculated
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,832
JP
Once you play Majima's story in Kiwami 2 it is clear as day why he left Makoto. Best story arc in the series imo.
 

jacks81x

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,460
NYC
the resounding majority answer to the eternal "where do i start with yakuza" is always 0

ive never seen otherwise

I'm in the minority that have always recommended starting with Kiwami first and then playing 0 later. IMO Yakuza 0 will have much greater emotional impact if you're already familiar with the core characters.
 

JustJavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,116
New Zealand
Yes. Or at the very least, keep your expectations in check. Gameplay also has a noticeably different feel and enemies have a habit of tanking more. Yakuza 1 tends to be more of a rough patch when playing through the series.

Just keep in mind it is a remake of a 2005 PS2 game and be prepared for lots and lots of enemies with guns.

I checked how long to beat for both Yakuza 0 and Kiwami before deciding which one to play first and got surprised the former one is about 31 hours and Yakuza kiwami about 18. It was then when I did some research and found out about the remakes and the timeline. Hadn't really paid attention to the series until I got a key for Yakuza 0 in a HumbleBundle a while ago.

Playing Tokyo Mirrage Sessions at the moment to have a couple of weeks break in between playing Yakuzas.