and i don't accept your counter argument. It's not that I fail to see your point, I easily see it as a valid point, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
It's pretty simple. Game developers, publishers, etc. have consistently stated that they make these characters this way to sell to the masses. They branded these characters as generic and the default.
So if a game features literally the global default of features you can give a character to sell a game, it is bland, it is generic, and it is a boring choice and we have a history of knowing where that choice came from. Could it prove interesting? Sure. But initial reactions are just that.
If you choose to mix it up with even just a white woman, you're already thinking outside the box enough to be considered interesting.
You make a game about Jedi and you don't give me race options for the Jedi, but the playable character looks like a white default in NBA 2K18? Yeah, it's generic. And that's not even close to dehumanizing the character as much as players and publishers dehumanize other races by acting like changing something outside of the status quo is so dangerous to lose player engagement.
Publishers won't even let female characters have love interests out of fear of what players may lose engagement on. It's entirely their fault people react to what should be hype trailers with "here we go yet again..."
Anyway, that's my two cents.
So if a game features literally the global default of features you can give a character to sell a game, it is bland, it is generic, and it is a boring choice and we have a history of knowing where that choice came from. Could it prove interesting? Sure. But initial reactions are just that.
If you choose to mix it up with even just a white woman, you're already thinking outside the box enough to be considered interesting.
You make a game about Jedi and you don't give me race options for the Jedi, but the playable character looks like a white default in NBA 2K18? Yeah, it's generic. And that's not even close to dehumanizing the character as much as players and publishers dehumanize other races by acting like changing something outside of the status quo is so dangerous to lose player engagement.
Publishers won't even let female characters have love interests out of fear of what players may lose engagement on. It's entirely their fault people react to what should be hype trailers with "here we go yet again..."
Anyway, that's my two cents.
This white character's nationality has nothing to do with his identity as a character, and white people are basically the default choice for... well, basically any form of entertainment media, really. Movies, TV shows, video games, etc.
That's why this guy is a "generic white guy." If the developers don't care about his nationality, then why should we?
I would argue that they're pretty different, in that Trevor fully embraces violence whereas Niko tries to escape it. A lot of Niko's character revolves around him being an immigrant and the culture shock involved with going from war to full-on capitalism.
Im glad you said that last sentence because that was my reply. Thats how Conservatives have operated for a long time.
If Identity was that big of motivator on the left than we would see Black People overtly rally behind Harris or Booker. But thats not happening in the numbers you would assume if Identity was that much of a problem. Mainly because policy beats all.
People are always going to want people who they feel can empathize with them to represent them but they aint gonna sacrifice policy for it.
He could have been white, asian, black, latin, man or woman, etc. He feels generic because he's not a known character from the verse.
And also the actor is relatively niche. No one is hyped because he is in the game either.
And also the actor is relatively niche. No one is hyped because he is in the game either.
Last edited:
You know what, I'm sorry to everyone here. If i sounded aggressive, I apologize. I received terrible news earlier today and I just been in a bad mental mood, sorry I'm going to bed and sleep it off, I don't really have a good idea in what I'm doing. I was never trying to deny diversity. I just feel like maybe i misread an argument and now I feel stupid.
disregard everything i said in this thread and the other thread. I mean it
disregard everything i said in this thread and the other thread. I mean it
I'd argue that too. But it's hard to claim that they're not both built from a stock-standard foundation.
As a black guy whose played star wars games for 20 plus years..lead a clan in jedi knight and jedi outcast....
It's time for a change man. This came off a little safe and really bland. Real corny
I damn near wouldve rather played as the lady in the trailer.
I was hyped a little at first...but I'm pretty cool on this now unless the gameplay really blows us out the water.
It's time for a change man. This came off a little safe and really bland. Real corny
I damn near wouldve rather played as the lady in the trailer.
I was hyped a little at first...but I'm pretty cool on this now unless the gameplay really blows us out the water.
Might not be exactly what you're looking for since the player can choose, but a lot of people really liked female Shepard and it's clear that Bioware invested a lot in making her character and its options good.
I don't think the character is boring or less interesting cause he is white, of course is nice to have diversity but imo is not mandatory for every game.
For exemple, BL3 ll release this year and have a lot of diversity, but i never see ppl praising the game for this.
For exemple, BL3 ll release this year and have a lot of diversity, but i never see ppl praising the game for this.
Why does that character have to default to being white, male and human? Is there a story reason for the character to be a white human male? Unless it's connected to the Skywalker family, in what way should white human male be considered the default?
Maybe you think it's not. But then it's awfully conspicuous how often that turns up in the magic dice roll of fair character creation.
All we know so far is that the character is a jedi hiding the fact that they're a jedi from the world. The character's stated goal is to not stand out. You know what would have made that more interesting? Make the character a twi'lek or rodian. Make the character a gungan or a toydarian. Make the character someone who would by their very appearance stand out, so they have to try extra hard to blend in.
Then you're not looking in the right places. Almost all of my friends online have praised the game for doing exactly that.
I am not saying the electorate is stupid enough to fall for that. I'm just saying politicians arent immune to trying to use it to gain favor. That's strictly what i mean by not supporting it in government. I don't want hollow platitudes, i want real solutions and straight talk.
It can be, but i'm saying that's not all it is. Its a system of thought where you dont have to offer anything substantive as long as you can appeal to hollow factors that allow you to skirt further scrutiny.
And in the case of politics, this is used cynically all the time in the case of the GOP, since they run off of white male fear.
But the dems arent immune. People like Harris launching their campaigns on MLK day and trying to 'get real with me' to appeal to the black vote despite having an absolutely horrible black record as a prosecutor doesn't go unnoticed.
This is going a bit off topic from the game topic so i'll leave it here.
My mother has cancer and has to get her thyroid removed and I been reacting ever since. I don't want you guys to think I am like this in general. I feel bad using that as an excuse, but I'm sorry, this is the first time I have been effected by this
To be honest I really don't know anymore. Fiction has never been the battleground in my book however I'm old now and I might not be in tune.
And we have Ganondorf
I love the hell out of Femshep. Honestly, I think she sort of represents how something as simple as a gender switch can completely revitalize a concept. Dude Shepard as manly-man space marine jesus is dull. Femshepard as badass lady space jesus is awesome. Because that never happens.
But yeah, I left her out for a reason. Because even including the choice of gender is, in 2019, the "safe" choice (even though it almost never happens either). Because then the developers/publishers can pat themselves on the back for diversity while never actually taking a stand. The brave thing to do would be to craft a story around a woman/PoC character. Make the narrative about their experiences in order to tell a story that couldn't be told with anybody else. I love my Femshep, but I want to play as a game where a Femshep is the only option.
Putting women and PoC in your game as main leads is inherently political to the sheep who think they should be relegated to the sidelines or out of the picture like the good old days.
I'm sorry if i come off as overly aggressive, but your talking about minorities here. We are the ones usually treated as the ones who are not normal in regards to representation. So why should anyone have to be excused for being angry?
When 99% of games have white male leads, and people complain about that, its not all of a sudden attacking white males. Its calling attention to a trend that needs to be changed in regards to representation
I'm sorry if i come off as overly aggressive, but your talking about minorities here. We are the ones usually treated as the ones who are not normal in regards to representation. So why should anyone have to be excused for being angry?
When 99% of games have white male leads, and people complain about that, its not all of a sudden attacking white males. Its calling attention to a trend that needs to be changed in regards to representation
The online talk has mainly been dominated by EGS, but in smaller circles the game has absolutely been praised for it.
Amara is easily going to be a popular new character. Actually, from what Ive seen, people like ALL of them
Is simple. What is more striking?
That the protagonist of the game, regardless of is race or gender, is this new original character, where the connection with the audience is null? Or that is a Boba Fett side story game?
That the protagonist of the game, regardless of is race or gender, is this new original character, where the connection with the audience is null? Or that is a Boba Fett side story game?
At least we'd get something different with the Boba fett story.
Take some self-care, come back, look over what people were trying to impart to you when you're in a good head space, take it to heart, move forward. That seems like the right way to mea culpa.
lol
Must be amazing.
I guess you didn't care about Fallout or Elder Scrolls or even the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077.
True, is there a way I can apologize to the mods, I don't want them to think I am an idiot, i just really have a hard time accepting bad news
Would've been a fantastic game even if Femshep was the only option. Same with Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (although far less of a narratively strong game) and Kassandra vs. Alexios.
With that said, I think it's often good to have options.
But it is absolutely tone-deaf.
You're lecturing on how Italian people and Irish people are not the same people -- and that's the most Captain Obvious thing I've ever read. The people that critiqued already know different nationalities exist just like how they already know different sexual orientations exist. When someone goes "another generic white man lead", you don't go "b-b-but he's not generic! he's gay!!!" Well good for him, but that's not the point. Gay, bi, straight, non-conforming or anything in between he's still your white man lead character that most white men felt represented through already in five hundred other games. Applying this directly to this situation, when people went "ugh, another generic white man lead", you went "wtf that's insulting to German and French people's uniqueness if they're both just "white" to you! Be more specific please. Cole from Infamous and Nathan Drake from Uncharted and Joel from The Last of Us all are descendants from different places so just labeling them "white" is vague and disrespectful!!!" Italian or French, Irish or German: still Caucasian. Still male. Don't you see? All the counter-arguments never address the actual issue and are just beating around the bush... a very far away bush, may I add.
If you have a problem with people going "another white man character", then you're telling me people should just always accept yet another white male character (as if we don't have 88924 of them already) and not yearn nor wish for representation for literally any-freaking-thing else as if the world isn't composed of so much more than white males.
As female players, girls usually attach to ANY female heroine, regardless of differences in race between the player and the character because players are just so happy they get some form of girl-representation. We'll worry about "nationalities" and WoC when we at least hit the basic necessities. It's like what the other poster said: baby steps.
your right your right.. Im sorry, i don't know what I'm arguing anymore. I just tried to argue with my brother for hours about something stupid as well.
I still have issues with your argument specifics, but i accept your premise
It is, and most of my favourite games are the ones that offer character creation while maintaining a strong narrative and characterization.
However, it's pretty shocking how few fixed-protagonist games star women/PoC. I would definitely welcome more games where I can customize my character, but I think we need diverse fixed-protagonist games more, if only because they're rarer.
Take it easy and rest.
As someone who studied cultural anthropology I get where you're coming from in a way.
But just rest.
Aww, hope everything is going well with your brother.
And kudos for admitting that by the way, it's admirable. <3
We can all get that way here and there. Hope you get some rest, mate.
To be honest, I'm not sure what there is to discuss. The main character is some white dude. That isn't bad or terrible, just generic. If they were a poc or a female or a female poc or anyone else then it would be less generic, more unique, more diverse. I don't think there's really any way to refute that unless I'm mistaken.
I still think Arthur is the best gaming protagonist this generation and no one can convince me otherwise :) (anyone secretly agree)?
but you guys are right in the long run. We can talk about ethnicities, but first we have to really deal with the broader diversity issues
but you guys are right in the long run. We can talk about ethnicities, but first we have to really deal with the broader diversity issues
Implying I say, haven't watched a lets play, or watched someone stream it instead of play it myself. There are lots of ways to consume content without actually having to play a game.
You're probably not arguing in good faith regardless if you're going to go for that angle instead of respond to the part where I'm saying its not great representation in general with 1 good character that I personally am aware of and a bunch of racist bs. So I'm going to not respond to you any more.
Do you like Arthur though AdaWong.. we can't be friends unless you like Arthur, its heresy if you don't.:)Aww, hope everything is going well with your brother.
And kudos for admitting that by the way, it's admirable. <3
just kidding
We need that game!
There's more then a dozen dammit! bring it back!
Totally. I said it when you brought this up in the other thread, and I completely agree with you about Arthur. He's easily my favorite character in recent memory and funny enough, on a purely, "judge the book by it's cover" metric, he's just a white dude.
I hope you feel better and I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through outside of internet discussions.
The cancer is very small and not growing, and they will only remove have of her thyroid. Logically her prognosis is very good, but why do I feel like my mind is racing
No, you're misunderstanding. Just saying that you wouldn't have even played as Connor if you only played that little of the game, not that you can't have an opinion on Connor or how he's portrayed in the game. There's any number of ways to see that, as you pointed out in your post.
I think the problem is the coupling of "generic" and "white" that is irking some people. As if to be white is to be generic and to simply be not white will make the character not generic. It doesn't help that it seems like lots of different people are using "generic" to mean "default," which is not a meaning I'm accustomed to seeing attached to the word.
He looks generic though. And that's not because of his skin color. And I don't buy the "but it's because of realistic visuals". It's not. We had DMC5 with the most detailled 3D models this year, with photogrammetry for actors scans and het we ended up with unique looking characters. We had Hellblade too before.
"Generic" being used to mean "predictably unoriginal" is quite a mainstream use of the word.
Yes, and that's what it means and that's what I imagine irks people when it's coupled with "white" as if to imply that to be white is to be generic.
It doesn't mean "default," though.