"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity

[Arsic]

For me personally I want the character to be representative of the narrative being told so it comes off authentic and well written.

The new Spider-Man Spiderverse movie isn't better or worse because of Miles' skin color but what he goes through and how he's portrayed .

 

[somerandomweirdguy]

Star Wars is a setting with actual ALIENS, and yet here we are getting a game about a human. And not just any human, the most boring sort of human that's already had a million games centered around it, in and out of the franchise.

It's completely understandable that people are upset. This is the most boring choice possible.

Signed a white dude

 

[Iva Demilcol]

One is a Eastern European Serbian ex-soldier and one is an American soldier

quite easy to distinguish

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Well, yes, I lied: One looks lower res than the other.

 

[Flame Lord]

I couldn't ever imagine being turned off a game because of the main characters skin colour. That's crazy to me

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Not a matter of being turned off, it's a matter of it's boring and adds to my apathy along with the rest of the trailer. It doesn't even have to be a human at all, it could be any number of aliens we have or haven't seen, yet still they went with the most boring design possible, fuck even the lightsaber color they chose is boring. In the end though it's Star Wars, if it wasn't a white dude it would have just been a white woman so it doesn't really matter too much to me.

 

[Deleted member 2507]

or is this another white human male padawan named Cal with a blue lightsaber?

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Think it is another, since Kanan's backstory is explored in comics. I think?

 

[cw_sasuke]

He seems like an incredible safe choice - even as a white male MC, there are levels to the appearances.
A older, bearded punished Snake type MC would have made this more exciting for me. I also wouldnt call Geralt or Kratos as generic as Cal for example.

PS. I like the actor from Gotham .....but for this game unveiling i had different expectations. When you have the whole galaxy and so many races at your disposal, its only natural to have higher expectations....

 

[Dragon's Game]

An African-American, Ethiopian, Haitian, Black-Londoner, and etc can all feel represented through the main character of T'Challa from Black Panther. Trying to segment whiteness into nationalities to deflect criticisms of lack of diverse representation seems like a weak argument.

Asian viewers can see themselves in a plethora of actors and actresses of different nationalities. Saying Niko is vastly different from another white protagonist as a counter argument ignores how consumers of media relate to representation.

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that's extremely silly though. Niko falls under the categories of "whiteness" in the broadest, American definition. But that category in its self is useless seeing as Niko does not fulfill the assumptions of what you would consider "everyday whiteness". whatever that is you describe him as

I mean you can reduce Niko to being "white" but it doesn't really tell me what character he is, its not helpful, and its not really interesting too me

You think the average white American sees himself as Niko or relates to his struggles? or even Trevor?

 

[score01]

Honestly, the thing that makes this guy generic in a Star Wars game isn't the fact that he's a white guy, it's the fact that he's human. With all the weirdo aliens and droids out there, you could easily make your game stand out more just by going for the next level in diversity.

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My thoughts exactly. There's a universe out there teaming with life and different aliens/species. The best they could come up with was this? They might as well go full scalebound and put headphones in him.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I wish the protagonist was some crazy looking alien

 

[TheCthultist]

I don't have a real answer to this. All I know is when I was watching the trailer and Cal popped up, my first thought was that the guy seemed boring, generic, and pretty much what I expected...

 

[mescalineeyes]

As soon as I saw him I was surprised the main character wasn't a woman.

What?

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yes, they are both straight and white.

 

[The Real Napsta]

Let me get this out of the way: Fallen order looks great, and I'm sure I'm going to get it.

I found the main character bland too, but not because he's white.

I'll reserve judgement on the character until after I play the game.

 

[Kilic95]

Star Wars is a setting with actual ALIENS, and yet here we are getting a game about a human. And not just any human, the most boring sort of human that's already had a million games centered around it, in and out of the franchise.

It's completely understandable that people are upset. This is the most boring choice possible.

Signed a white dude

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As a white dude myself, I will co-sign this.

 

[Poised Turtoise]

I mean I don't like the "important" part idk why, that is kind of subjective. You could easily say white people have had their time being represented, and since you can change color in engine/it doesn't HAVE to alienate any of the actual acting talent based on them being white, there should simply NOT be white characters in games for a while. After all, it is more "important" for others to be represented

....and that just doesn't sound good to me

but otherwise OP was a good read and significantly better thought out then my comment

 

[sabrina]

What?

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learn to read

Why do we have to single out Star Wars? There aren't much minorities in big gaming and movie franchises either especially if you want queer representation. A huge reason is probably the worldwide appeal though. They want to sell movies and games in China.

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I'm not singling out Star Wars. This thread is. If some other giant IP comes out with yet another straight white protagonist then I'll register the same complaint there.

 

[Darryl M R]

I would have preferred if they made the protagonist a shapeshifter with a number of voice actors and actresses. So I could have created my own Jedi.

It could be canon still. No one knows what the character really looks like, it is rumored that the shapeshifter doesn't even remember its original form.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

Who knows how the Star Wars dude will turn out to be. The impression I got was that he was really bland and uninteresting. This could change when we see more of him. Another character that looked bland but turned out not to be that way was Arthur Morgan. I thought he looked really bland because Rockstar didn't show much of him. They made so many terrible trailers that I was suprised when the game came out and he was a great character.

Has nothing to do with race really.

Saying that, I feel we still need some more diverse characters from different races and ethnicities. Black, Arab, Asian (no not chinese or Japanese but other ones like Irani, Indian, Pakistani, Afghani etc), Native Americans. It would be great if we got more diverse characters instead of mostly white people.

 

[goldenpp73]

Such a huge op due to a skin color choice. Kind of conflicted feeling.

 

[nel e nel]

As soon as I saw him I was surprised the main character wasn't a woman.

What?

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Those look like white folks to me, and presumably straight if we go by the history of mainstream media representation

 

[Trice]

I don't believe someone's skin color makes a character less or more generic.

 

[neon/drifter]

He's a padawan that survived order 66 and is on the run?

That's interesting enough for me!

 

[Rodjer]

You ignore the fact that white consumers can feel represented by both Niko and Mason equally and can see themselves in those characters.

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Uh, i don't think that's how things work, do you think swedish or polish players will feel represented by the 99th american soldier in the average AAA game?
Niko is too distinct from Mason despite being both "white" and he acts like a "slav", a more stereotypical slav to be exact, slav people would feel represented seeing Niko not Mason.

 

[Jakisthe]

It has always been a paradox of scale for me - how, overall, tilting towards more representation is objectively good, but how for any one particular product, that single entity isn't really obligated to have more representation.

In practice, I suppose this has the effect of me reacting to a minority in a game with a "hey, good for them; this is a positive thing", but then when fans start saying that, for instance, this Star Wars character needs to be changed I react like "well, no, he doesn't, because there's nothing wrong with him being designed like that either".

 

[Lant_War]

Dunno, shouldn't things be like that? Like, everyone treats everyone the same. No racism, no sexism.
I mean, i get that this is an ideal that is not reality. But is it wrong to portray an ideal situation? Anyone can be a hero, anyone can be hunted, anyone can be whatever, people getting defined by what they do rather than where they come from or how they are born.
At least, in, say, space fantasy. Obviously if going for realism, representative portrayal makes perhaps more sense.


Why fresh-faced, good looking, 20-something white guy with common hair color?

Why not someone grizzled and grimy? Why not someone pushing 50? A cyborg? Ugly face? Eye missing? Bad teeth?

I give zero fucks who the guy is at the moment, how they think, how they live, whatever, since that can be only known once playing the game. But i do care how they look, since it is visual medium, one with thousands of characters, most of whom look pretty damn boring and forgettable. I would very much prefer an alien or a minority, just because, but in absence of that, why not give the character some distinguishing appearance beyond "good looks"?

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He's a Padawan shortly after Order 66 happens, so he can't be old. Though I agree, visually he could be much more interesting, but we still have no idea how good of a character he's gonna be.

 

[JahIthBer]

Well as i said in the other thread, the prequels were always limited by the fact they had to be about Anakin & Obi-Wan, 2 white dudes, but Lucas & the various EU writers did try to make up for this by having a very diverse Jedi council to at least give the EU more representation, we have seen them fleshed out in the Clone Wars & they are great characters (barriss offee's fall to the dark side is way better than Anakin's imo) so it's really disappointing to see a prequel era spin off fall into the same young white guy fighting the empire trope, which is just Luke Skywalker again, really it could have been any of the council members or their apprentices, it doesn't have to be after order 66 either which heavily limits what characters you can use.

Of course this is just very specific to a timeline of Star Wars, the video game industry as a whole is obviously pretty bad with the white guy MC's too, but i feel like ignoring the prequels baby steps towards a more diverse Star Wars is more insulting & acting like every jedi has to be a white guy thanks to Anakin & Obi-Wan.

 

[Kewlmyc]

It's to be expected for me.

It's on par with "oh great, another blond/brunette young male JRPG protag". Shit's everywhere.

 

[Revan Ren]

I think I'm spoiled by character creators in games. I've played so many with regular white guy protags that I always jump at the chance to make a different type of character. Especially in recent Star Wars games I've played, I get to be me or something a little more funky but the character isn't predefined and I've come to appreciate that.

When I see a white guy protag I get the impression that I'm about to experience a story that is familiar, and in a sense a little less interesting because of it.

I feel ignorant in stating that Cal does look very generic, but it's hard to tell from just a trailer. Still hyped for the game.

 

[Deleted member 835]

The most boring part aint that he white guy 1000 instead of something not done before. But is about dude hiding his true power and has to learn to become a Jedi for 1000th time

 

[TheCthultist]

What?

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...what?

 

[Darryl M R]

that's extremely silly though. Niko falls under the categories of "whiteness" in the broadest, American definition. But that category in its self is useless seeing as Niko does not fulfill the assumptions of what you would consider "everyday whiteness". whatever that is you describe him as

I mean you can reduce Niko to being "white" but it doesn't really tell me what character he is, its not helpful, and its not really interesting too me

You think the average white American sees himself as Niko or relates to his struggles? or even Trevor?

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If you think conversations around broad representation is silly, then you can just stop posting. Feel free to wrestle with your interpretation of whiteness with someone else.

And the answer to your last question: Yes. Just like a black consumer can see representation in Idris Elba and Will Smith.

 

[Datajoy]

I always wonder what the "generic" part of this phrase is supposed to mean. It strikes me as kind of dehumanizing.

 

[L Thammy]

if we were talking about an absolute vacuum where we, as the audience, have no history or connection with any minority catergory, then it's not unreasonable to say that perhaps there isn't.

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However, even if the star wars universe exists in a vacuum (in theory. In practice, I know it's more complicated), we, the real life people, do not, and when we create a window into the SW universe, our values still influence the story we see

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Personally, I feel like these are the most important parts of the OP.

I don't think there's anything wrong, inferior, or offensive about a white male main character, but because these things don't exist in a vacuum, it's moreso that when those characters have been the standard for a long while, deviance from it seems more notable and impressive.

 

[Zukuu]

It's entirely valid and a good message to want more diversity as MC. It's something totally different to "criticize" the race of any particular MC. Just think about the latter - you are actually saying that the character has the "wrong" race. It's just not valid "criticism".

 

[Dragon's Game]

If you think conversations around broad representation is silly, then you can just stop posting. Feel free to wrestle with your interpretation of whiteness with someone else.

And the answer to your last question: Yes. Just like a black consumer can see representation in Idris Elba and Will Smith.

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I don't think the average white american gamer is going to be able to relate to Niko Bellic, a child soldier who fought in the Yugoslavian wars and relate to him because they have similar levels of melanin

 

[Deleted member 32679]

If they made him gay or bi it would be an interesting character to me rather than another white guy game protagonist.

 

[Deleted member 2507]

He's a Padawan shortly after Order 66 happens, so he can't be old. Though I agree, visually he could be much more interesting, but we still have no idea how good of a character he's gonna be.

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Oh, well, i guess that does justify the age.
Kind of disappointed we can't play a master though, i'd love to have full powers from start without any RPG elements for unlocking them, anything like that. And even masters can learn, being old doesn't preclude a character arc.

 

[galv]

it's not that he's a white dude

it's that he's the generic nathan drake looking mfer

there's nothing interesting about his visual appearance, looks like generic movie actor with american accent #3953

he isn't nero, dante, v-esque

he isn't geralt-esque

he isn't ezio, joel, kratos

he isn't doctor dude from vampyr, or agent 47 from hitman

he isn't artyom or corvo or adam jensen

he doesn't even come across as more interesting as the most generic white dude protag, BJ from wolfenstein

there's nothing to the character seen in the trailer - and that's where the "bland" shit comes from

if he was wearing interesting clothes or had some badass character moment in the trailer, this would be a very different conversation

 

[Armadilo]

White guys are the most common main characters across pop culture, so yeah they are now generic and a bit boring. But the writing for a minority/POC character has to be appropriate also. If you write a POC and how the world reacts to them the same you would a white guy, then you lose a lot of the impact they have. Representation matters, but their experience has to be representative also.

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wait so we can't have people other than white people because of reasons..., in the end dude. We're all the same and in this case Star Wars could have gone in anyway possible but instead they went with this... Generic

 

[Darryl M R]

Uh, i don't think that's how things work, do you think swedish or polish players will feel represented by the 99th american soldier in the average AAA game?
Niko is too distinct from Mason despite being both "white" and he acts like a "slav", a more stereotypical slav to be exact, slav people would feel represented seeing Niko not Mason.

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Representation with race can be broad. Baptise from Overwatch is completely different from me, but his presence in OW can provide representation for me as a black person.

 

[Venom.]

White guys are the most common main characters across pop culture, so yeah they are now generic and a bit boring. But the writing for a minority/POC character has to be appropriate also. If you write a POC and how the world reacts to them the same you would a white guy, then you lose a lot of the impact they have. Representation matters, but their experience has to be representative also.

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Greatly explained insight. Diversity should not just be a, literal, palette swap. It has to convey something of the person's experience of how society interacts with them. Although within Star Wars lore is there racism?

 

[kitzkozan]

I couldn't ever imagine being turned off a game because of the main characters skin colour. That's crazy to me

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Me neither, but I understand some of the reactions since white male leads have been the default for so long. Now that there's more diversity in geekdom, it's really starting to stick out like a sore thumb for a segment of fans. The game is still 8 months out and the lead could turn out to be interesting or entertaining so we will see.

 

[Htown]

Think it is another, since Kanan's backstory is explored in comics. I think?

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that's what I'm saying, because we now apparently have two separate Star Wars characters who were:

-human
-white
-male
-ex-padawan
-named "Cal"
-hiding their powers after Order 66
-with a blue lightsaber

this is actually really bothering me right now

 

[DigitalOp]

I don't know why people tryna write essays for a simple subject.

Hollywood been around for over 100 years with the vast majority of films starring white men.

Gaming been around 30+ years, vast majority offering player characters of white men, cartoons, or Japanese characters sporting Caucasian features.


People want different shit. It's not a rocket science equation

 

[Deleted member 1635]

If you write a POC and how the world reacts to them the same you would a white guy.

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It's a Star Wars game... I would hope they would not take real world racial dynamics (specifically those of North America) and try to hamfist them into that universe.

 

[cw_sasuke]

I always wonder what the "generic" part of this phrase is supposed to mean. It strikes me as kind of dehumanizing.

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Generic as in the standard, i would assume.

If you think this is "dehumanizing" though... well lets just say there are worse things than that.

I don't know why people tryna write essays for a simple subject.

Hollywood been around for over 100 years with the vast majority of films starring white men.

Gaming been around 30+ years, vast majority offering player characters of white men, cartoons, or Japanese characters sporting Caucasian features.


People want different shit. It's not a rocket science equation

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it's not that he's a white dude

it's that he's the generic nathan drake looking mfer

there's nothing interesting about his visual appearance, looks like generic movie actor with american accent #3953

he isn't nero, dante, v-esque

he isn't geralt-esque

he isn't ezio, joel, kratos

he isn't doctor dude from vampyr, or agent 47 from hitman

he doesn't even come across as more interesting as the most generic white dude protag, BJ from wolfenstein

there's nothing to the character seen in the trailer - and that's where the "bland" shit comes from

if he was wearing interesting clothes or had some badass character moment in the trailer, this would be a very different conversation

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Gonna co-sign both of this posts.

 

[Dragon's Game]

Representation with race can be broad. Baptise from Overwatch is completely different from me, but his presence in OW can provide representation for me as a black person.

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then you tend to use broad categories to fit your ideas of representation. Others don't. Others are much more specific and narrow

 

[Big One]

I do agree that Star Wars and white dudes are like this symbiotic bond that can't seem to be detached from each other for better or worse. I mean like the only black representation in terms of Jedi is Mace Windu and that one chick who is technically an alien I think. Mace Windu is "cool" but I say that in the loosest terms as all that exists of his character is his look and his talents.

There can definitely be more strides in doing something with a black lead. Finn is a nice sta-...oh wait, he was sidelined by what was considered to be the weakest part of The Last Jedi. : /

 

[Darryl M R]

I don't think the average white american gamer is going to be able to relate to Niko Bellic, a child soldier who fought in the Yugoslavian wars and relate to him because they have similar levels of melanin

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Yet a black american, me, is able to find representation with Baptise from Overwatch. A Haitian child soldier.

then you tend to use broad categories to fit your ideas of representation. Others don't. Others are much more specific and narrow

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Or others are also just as broad.

 

[Rodjer]

Representation with race can be broad. Baptise from Overwatch is completely different from me, but his presence in OW can provide representation for me as a black person.

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That's you and i can agree with this point of view but other people might think different.

 

[Disclaimer]

Anyone who would call Star Wars' current diversity "mostly straight white people" hasn't actually been following Star Wars. It's not 1977 in Star Wars anymore.

And they might be cis, I dunno, sexually and relationships aren't explored a lot in Star Wars as of right now.

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While I'll agree that Star Wars has more ethnic and gender diversity than many other series lately, this seems like a clumsy post.

Who are all these LGBT+ Star Wars characters I'm unaware of? Has there ever been an actual LGBT+ Star Wars lead? The answer to that is "no," and it will continue to be no because Disney simply isn't interested in that type of representation (see: Marvel's conveniently cut queer hinting — lmao — and inclusion via ~interviews~).

Moreover, Star Wars doesn't lack queer people because "relationships aren't explored a lot as of right now." Last I checked, Star Wars has plenty of relationships, even if their romantic or sexual natures aren't a focus. You don't even need relationships, let alone sex, to portray LGBT people.

I realize you likely didn't mean anything by your post, but I really wanted to clarify that Star Wars' LGBT+ representation is indefensibly bad (read: non-existent). The only ones I can think of off-hand are non-canon inclusions by BioWare.