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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
"diverse for diversity's sake" is one of the most disingenuous arguments there is. Nothing is diverse for diversity's sake. Things in the world are naturally diverse. People are diverse. Cultures are diverse. It takes a concentrated effort to keep things from being diverse. It takes wanting to appeal to a homogeneous look, wanting to appeal to the status quo, wanting to fit in with the majority.

If a developer decides to step away from the majority, that's the most natural thing they can do. And it'd be about time.

I once made a snide remark about how characters in video games should only be minorities if they have a good reason to be like they are in real life, and a few people got mad at me for it. Then I realized that the statement is too close to things that people actually say for that to work as a joke.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
I actually don't mind that he is white, im disappointed that he is another human protagonist in Star Wars.

Can we get a female Twi'lek main character? They've earned the right after being stuck as the exotic supporting character and Star Wars strippers forever now.
3 main PT characters are human
3 main OT characters are human
The 3 main characters of the ST are human,
most of the Rebels cast is human,
Manalorian will be about a human(for the love of god have some supporting aliens)
this is human
Thankfully Resistance has an alien with the second most screentime but he is just comic relief.

Ahsoka was such a breath of fresh air.

She belonged to the species, Togrutas though.


As in the character could have been a representation of earthly minority (if not an non-human alien) as considered in pop culture today and still have good writing and dialogue. Having a female or PoC would not have would necessitate some protracted special treatment that would take away from the "goodness" of the writing and dialogue.

I am not going to dismiss the game out of the hand because it features a white guy but given history of the franchise (let alone gaming) is overwhelmingly littered with white males when it comes to games, seeing someone else be represented would have been a fresh change. After all, it is not like there is a dearth of skilled PoC and/or actresses that could have fit the role that that Cameron Monaghan is playing.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
In all honesty, Cal could have been any race/gender combination and would have likely come off the same to me. His origins as a Padawan post-Order 66 does not carry any implicit race or gender requirements to fit in the Star Wars universe.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
It's not a fact, just your opinion. If a trailer is released for something, people definitely provide reactions to what they've seen. If you're telling me people can't judge content they've seen before release, then that's pure horseshit. Whole point of a trailer is to sell you on something. Crazy how you went from supposedly providing an opinion to determining what's fact for everyone else. Expected though.
Perhaps I should say, judging things based on complete information is just a universally agreed upon thing that's a good idea, so it might as well be a fact. I mean, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on this incomplete trailer. But calling him "yet another white dude" is next to useless, because we don't really know whether he has any true defining characteristics that emerge due to the actual progression of story and characterization, because the only information we have is this 2 minute trailer that's supposed to show of a bunch of other stuff aside from the main protagonist.

Like, complaints about how the character could have been literally anyting else but a white man, or discussions about how a person of color, or a different gender, or even a different species could have made the premise even more unique; those are interesting discussion for me to read. Already judging how the main character will actually turn out? I mean, it's just useless, because we know next to nothing (and we aren't supposed to know anything more than next to nothing at this point), and any little speck of new information, let alone the full release of the game, could (and probably will) invalidate almost anything anyone discussed in that specific regard. Not the case with the aforementioned discussion about how it could have been even better.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,520
Personally I think it's a boring choice. That said, it's more because there have already been plenty of white dudes as protagonists in these Star Wars games. Now do I think he'd be more interesting if he was a PoC? No not in this context. Racism isn't really a thing between humans in SW. Could he be more iconic visually if he was a man or woman PoC? Yes. Imagine if the main character looked more like Zazi Beats or even Steve Aoki. Or even better, one of the many allen races which could actually affects the story in other ways.
 
Dec 30, 2017
251
True that the charadesign is laughable but the systematic racialist/sexualist/genderist angle on everything is getting boring now.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I once made a snide remark about how characters in video games should only be minorities if they have a good reason to be like they are in real life, and a few people got mad at me for it. Then I realized that the statement is too close to things that people actually say for that to work as a joke.
If it makes you feel better, I would have known you're joking. But yeah, it's a bit close for comfort.

True that the charadesign is laughable but the systematic racialist/sexualist/genderist angle on everything is getting boring now.
I agree. It's getting old to have to keep reminding designers and corporations that other people exist and are worth catering to. If people hurried up and became more progressive then we wouldn't have to keep having this discussion.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
There's a lot of reason to say that you can't judge a character as generic without knowing how it's written if we're talking about movies and TV. But despite how hard some work to change things, one can easily and almost rightfully jump to that conclusion with video game protagonists because so many of them are written with nothing beyond the "elevator pitch", as you called it.

Part of that is because many are designed with the specific intent to be one-dimensional so that players can insert themselves into the narrative more easily, the other part is that skilled writing talent has LONG been considered something that's not in demand in the industry. Both lead to... well, really poorly characterized protagonists that simply reinforce the "generic" commentary.

Video game protagonists will never stack up comparatively to protagonists in other media because there's more care and attention paid in other media by and large, so this "wait until we know the narrative" feels like a toothless argument used to kick the criticism can further down the road.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
There's a lot of reason to say that you can't judge a character as generic without knowing how it's written if we're talking about movies and TV. But despite how hard some work to change things, one can easily and almost rightfully jump to that conclusion with video game protagonists because so many of them are written with nothing beyond the "elevator pitch", as you called it.

Part of that is because many are designed with the specific intent to be one-dimensional so that players can insert themselves into the narrative more easily, the other part is that skilled writing talent has LONG been considered something that's not in demand in the industry. Both lead to... well, really poorly characterized protagonists that simply reinforce the "generic" commentary.

Video game protagonists will never stack up comparatively to protagonists in other media because there's more care and attention paid in other media by and large, so this "wait until we know the narrative" feels like a toothless argument used to kick the criticism can further down the road.
That really hasn't been the case for story driven games of basically all types for a long time now. At the very least since stuff like TLOU. Protagonists in video games these days do have an arc, and are well characterized, and do have depth. I mean heck, to see the most startling evolution of this example, just take a look at God of War. I'm sure you do have self-insert type characters still, but I think this game is definitely trying to tell a specific story about a specific main character and his journey.
 

maxx720

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,833
Lol. Honestly the first thing that came to mind was "generic white guy protagonist again" after seeing the trailer.
 

sinny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,421
The character design is bland, white or not. The character could be a POC and would be boring and safe too.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
"diverse for diversity's sake" is one of the most disingenuous arguments there is. Nothing is diverse for diversity's sake. Things in the world are naturally diverse. People are diverse. Cultures are diverse. It takes a concentrated effort to keep things from being diverse. It takes wanting to appeal to a homogeneous look, wanting to appeal to the status quo, wanting to fit in with the majority.

If a developer decides to step away from the majority, that's the most natural thing they can do. And it'd be about time.

Fuck sake can we get a like/upvote button on this forum soon please. Thanks :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,662
Like i said, you tend to use big categories to fit your idea of representation. That's totally fine, but others might not accept that
this really, for example for me I guess some people feel represented by any "latino" character but for a lot of people if they aren't from the same country or even region the character may as well be from new Zealand because it makes no difference.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
Ezra is Middle Eastern,
904

800
And also one of the most interesting Star Wars characters in the last 20 years.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I don't know why people tryna write essays for a simple subject.

Hollywood been around for over 100 years with the vast majority of films starring white men.

Gaming been around 30+ years, vast majority offering player characters of white men, cartoons, or Japanese characters sporting Caucasian features.


People want different shit. It's not a rocket science equation
Video games is far behind Hollywood and Hollywood itself is just now catching on.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
I just see him as a random 2019 American actor in a galaxy supposed to be far away. That's the problem for me.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
That really hasn't been the case for story driven games of basically all types for a long time now. At the very least since stuff like TLOU. Protagonists in video games these days do have an arc, and are well characterized, and do have depth. I mean heck, to see the most startling evolution of this example, just take a look at God of War. I'm sure you do have self-insert type characters still, but I think this game is definitely trying to tell a specific story about a specific main character and his journey.
Yeah, and look at what happens when games like TLoU take those chances: we have gamers talking about how Ellie being LGBT and telling a story from that perspective will "take them out of the experience" before the game is even released. There's a reason main characters are written to be the blandest character in most games and, yes, race, gender and sexuality all have a part to play in making them that way.

The genuine narratively-driven games where it was a focal point rather than an after-thought are few and far between, even games released up to the current minute. As I said, things are getting better, but in spite of such efforts, most game narratives have little to no meat on them and are often exceptionally pulpy. The best you can usually hope for is good to great supporting characters.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
Making him a PoC won't make him any more interesting in context of the story.

Making him a PoC would, however, make him more interesting in the current real-world cultural context.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,531
As much as I have a man crush on Cameron Monaghan, it's generic Star Wars dude and yes the story suffers for it. It immediately makes it feel less fresh and new
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
Honestly, the thing that makes this guy generic in a Star Wars game isn't the fact that he's a white guy, it's the fact that he's human. With all the weirdo aliens and droids out there, you could easily make your game stand out more just by going for the next level in diversity.
but how would you know he was white if he wasn't human. checkmate!
joking that they always want you to know the character is white just like in Avatar
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
It would definitely be more interesting to me if it were anything but just another thirtysomething white dude with brown hair.

It's like creators have a palette with 1000 colors and they only use the same 2 fucking colors. Over and over and over and over and over and...
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
all i will say is if the market is saturated with a a certain characteristic, that characteristic obviously stands out less as something new/exciting

as for the character in the new respawn game, the first words out of my mouth when i saw him was "this guy is literally generic video game dude"
 

Deleted member 55568

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 1, 2019
238
Well then devs need to stop making white dudes the star of every major game of theirs then. It's not that hard
This is the second Star Wars game with a story that EA has released, and the first/other one starred a woman of Indian descent. Which was great, because who doesn't love Janina? But improving representation doesn't mean no more white male leads.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
This is the second Star Wars game with a story that EA has released, and the first/other one starred a woman of Indian descent. Which was great, because who doesn't love Janina? But improving representation doesn't mean no more white male leads.

Well at the current rate they'll achieve representation levels approaching real life by the time I'm old enough to have grandkids who are adults. No one is saying no more white leads, but I don't see how representation improves when for every non-white male lead you get dozens of games with them. Yeah we're getting more POC as leads, but the representation doesn't really improve if we still get way more white dudes
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,998
Australia
I just want to say I thought Titanfall 2 benefitted from its generic white protagonist. It put more of an emphasis on BT and the Apex Predators as a swash of colour on a white canvas if you know what I mean. Not saying Jedi Fallen Order will do the same (being third person I doubt it) but the same team knew how to work it in well before.

Also isn't this the first white man who has starred in a Star Wars thing since Disney bought the IP? It should be a great thing that it took them this long.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Well at the current rate they'll achieve representation levels approaching real life by the time I'm old enough to have grandkids who are adults. No one is saying no more white leads, but I don't see how representation improves when for every non-white male lead you get dozens of games with them. Yeah we're getting more POC as leads, but the representation doesn't really improve if we still get way more white dudes

Approaching real life, where? Global? The combined markets in which EA has a presence? The game-buying population? America?
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,982
I'm mostly disappointed about how the lead looks like he could be in any game. There's nothing Star Wars about him. If in a damn Star Wars game one can't play as an alien then where? The protagonist is generic because we've seen the same design in a thousand other games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Approaching real life, where? Global? The combined markets in which EA has a presence? The game-buying population? America?
Let's just take the population of people who play games, since they're the ones interacting with this content. I'm pretty sure games don't even approach that. I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know there should be significantly more female leads
 
Dec 30, 2017
251
Well then devs need to stop making white dudes the star of every major game of theirs then. It's not that hard

What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.

Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?

Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
Were the stories revolving around them solely? i can count that on one maybe not even two hands. Between 2018 and 2019.

Also to my knowledge isn't the character in that white? regardless of female or male. Like there's never been less female leads it's more like, there's been very bad one's.
Are you being serious? How have the recent female leads been very bad? Especially given the Hellblade example?

Does any games story revolve around one character only? Does halo revolve around master chief? Your criteria don't make any sense. Im talking main playable characters in story based games.

I can count white male leads on my hands as well in the last 2 years for big AAA story based games. Nobody cares what etnicity the character is in random developers AA below 65 metacritic game.

I think a list of story mode leads in the last 2 years would suprise you given what you seem to be thinking.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,350
"would a minority character is better served within this framework"

Wha...what is the question here?
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.

Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?

Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.

No one's censoring anything. They can keep making what they want to and I can keep calling it generic if I think it looks like everything else out there. No one's calling for the developers to be shat on. No one's calling for boycotts. A lot of the people complaining will still get the game if it looks interesting (when they decide to actually show it). What do you want me to say? Am I suppose to pretend I don't find certain character designs generic and overused???
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
For me, it's because we never get an MC who isn't human that's isn't a Creat A Char. May as well let be CAC in that case.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.

Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?

Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.
Lol at you thinking this AAAA game is being made with artistic vision in mind.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Complaints about representation are legitimate. Saying that a character is generic having only watched a 2 minute trailer is a stupid criticism to make.


Most of those movies were made in the last century. Ever since Disney took over we've seen better representation overall.
Yep. Also Cameron Monaghan is a fantastic actor and I have faith he will make it work.

Honestly though I'd rather that we play as some other species in Fallen Order. More to do with the xenophobic practices of the empire, so that can introduce some good story beats.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
Why does every negative opinion have to be 'outrage' or 'getting mad' to some people lol

Why can't disappointment be a thing

Not everything against your tastes and preferences is considered 'outrage' you slugs
Easier to not think about why people might dislike something when you assume they're just being irrational and angry.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.

Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?

Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.

So people who want representation should be quiet and not push for it because why? Because your dark slippery slope doesn't sound like a bad thing. No one is harassing the creators, no one here is threatening a PR rep, and no one is calling for anyone to be fired, yet the people who want diversity are the toxic group?

You're bored of hearing about it, that much is clear. I can understand, it is depressing that so much discussion has to be had to influence even the most minor change. However, people should not just shut up because it makes it easier for those who don't care about the issue in the first place.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,941
Japan
Personally while I don't think it would have made the narrative any better by being a different color or gender, since being woman or any specific human race doesn't seem to really affect anyone nearly as much as simply not being human in the Star Wars universe.
Visually though? I think he looks fairly boring so I'd personally would have gone with a different race (gender would have been a 50/50, literally.. could do either way) just because it's less common to look at in games.