I didn't say recent i was talking past tense.Are you being serious? How have the recent female leads been very bad? Especially given the Hellblade example?
Does any games story revolve around one character only? Does halo revolve around master chief? Your criteria don't make any sense. Im talking main playable characters in story based games.
I can count white male leads on my hands as well in the last 2 years for big AAA story based games. Nobody cares what etnicity the character is in random developers AA below 65 metacritic game.
I think a list of story mode leads in the last 2 years would suprise you given what you seem to be thinking.
No one's censoring anything. They can keep making what they want to and I can keep calling it generic if I think it looks like everything else out there. No one's calling for the developers to be shat on. No one's calling for boycotts. A lot of the people complaining will still get the game if it looks interesting (when they decide to actually show it). What do you want me to say? Am I suppose to pretend I don't find certain character designs generic and overused???
I'm, uh, not seeing the problem here. If we make efforts towards diversity, that might lead us down a slippery slope where there'll be more diversity? Is that's the issue?
What you babbling about? japan isn't america. I expect nothing from them, other then not to be racist/insensitive if they do indeed have a poc character in their game.What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.
Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?
Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.
What? censure themselves? uhWhy being so egocentric? I was talking about an overall climate that's beginning to annoy all the devs of the world because each minority wants to be vocable for very superficial reasons.
Solving a micro injustice only lead to another injustices. Don't you see the absurdity of the situation where each minority in the world will begin to claim their spotlight? It's not possible to please everybody and devs now feel obliged to censure themselves by our fault. If really something has to be "fixed", we better concentrate our efforts on law. Please, leave games alone.
And where are you getting this from? This seems to be you projecting your thoughts onto devs. Now who's being egocentric?Why being so egocentric? I was talking about an overall climate that's beginning to annoy all the devs of the world because each minority wants to be vocable for very superficial reasons.
It does if you actually think of the context we're discussing.I don't believe someone's skin color makes a character less or more generic.
So which is it? Letting the artists do their job or self-censorship?What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.
Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?
Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.
Who ever this person is, is being very transparent. Like you know he doesn't understand shit, when it comes to the history of art, society and politics. Which people used art to rely every kind of societal and political message/movement for centuries.So which is it? Letting the artists do their job or self-censorship?
Nobody is buying this crap from you.
What is not so hard is to let the artists doing their job or let the producers choose the most commercial representation if they want. Creating a toxic climate for so superficial arguments is not going to help them as they have enough pressure for now. Even Japanese devs are bored now.
Today gender minorities, tomorrow non-neurotypical people?
Politics and self censorship in arts are nonsense that people may be wise not to feed.
And where are you getting this from? This seems to be you projecting your thoughts onto devs. Now who's being egocentric?
You nailed it.As far as I can tell, they seem to think that because not all races can be represented equally, it is worthless to even try. They seem to buy into the idea that game designers are being forced to make POC leads, and that is a violation of art. Obviously this is because the white male heteronormative is the natural state of the world, and to do even the most minor tweak to that formula is a violation of the artist's vision.
There also seems to be a minor concern that this discussion might impact game developers in Japan, which of course, would be a bad thing. So yeah I guess the discussion is over then, Representation is pointless and to try and encourage change is actually the worst thing you could do.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but that is honestly what it reads like to me.
Perhaps the conversation wouldn't be needed if the industry weren't so hostile and exclusionary towards minorities. Then they could tell their stories the way that they like and the discussion would be a moot point.Solving a micro injustice only lead to another injustices. Don't you see the absurdity of the situation where each minority in the world will begin to claim their spotlight? It's not possible to please everybody and devs now feel obliged to censure themselves by our fault. If really something has to be "fixed", we better concentrate our efforts on law. Please, leave games alone.
I mean, I think it's wrong to immediately jumping to criticize after learning just the protagonists skin color and apparent sex and nothing else. I've got no issue if people want to criticize the character should he turn out to be just another everyman Nathan Drake type with very little depth, but I'd say it's a bit early to draw conclusions there. I'm not even talking about the outright hatred displayed in the reveal thread with posts basically saying, "yikes, a white guy in 2019."
First they need to start hiring more diverse creative leads and producers. Until i see that, then i see nothing changing.Perhaps the conversation wouldn't be needed if the industry weren't so hostile and exclusionary towards minorities. Then they could tell their stories the way that they like and the discussion would be a moot point.
But you know that we don't live in such an egalitarian world. And until we do, yeah, we have to remind game developers in the societal majority that other kinds of people exist and have a story worth telling that people will willingly pay money for. There's a solution to the annoyance you feel about this discussion, but the industry doesn't seem to have much of an interest in pursuing. So if they don't want to hear it anymore, perhaps they should look around the room at their co-workers and realize why they won't stop hearing about it from the people giving them their money to keep them employed.
Let's just forget that Battlefront 2, the new trilogy and Rogue One had female leads and diverse Co Stars. But only a few hours after the new game has been announced, there's already such an unnecessary thread.
Isn't it kinda racist already thinking about the fact, that a non white/male Character would be more interesting?
I find it tiring, that such discussions are now a norm, especially here.
Sorry if all those points were already made, I didn't want to read all the pages.
Might get banned for drive by or whatever. But seeing more and more of these kind of threads/discussions over problems that aren't really there, but people just can't see something not be diverse or perfectly correct, are taking away the need, urge or fun to post anyway.
Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I'm not a native speaker :)
That doesn't really change the fact that we are still defaulting to pale skin and male as representing the human species for the vast majority of main character roles.
ThisCan we just wait? The game is like 8 months away. We have no way to know if he's an interesting character or not. The same was said for Arthur Morgan pre-release, and look how that turned out.
Forget being a non native speaker, this is just ignorant.Let's just forget that Battlefront 2, the new trilogy and Rogue One had female leads and diverse Co Stars. But only a few hours after the new game has been announced, there's already such an unnecessary thread.
Isn't it kinda racist already thinking about the fact, that a non white/male Character would be more interesting?
I find it tiring, that such discussions are now a norm, especially here.
Sorry if all those points were already made, I didn't want to read all the pages.
Might get banned for drive by or whatever. But seeing more and more of these kind of threads/discussions over problems that aren't really there, but people just can't see something not be diverse or perfectly correct, are taking away the need, urge or fun to post anyway.
Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I'm not a native speaker :)
Wait for what? You do realize people are talking about his design right? Unless you expect it to drastically change, my opinion isn't going to take a 180 just because he has a compelling character arc.Can we just wait? The game is like 8 months away. We have no way to know if he's an interesting character or not. The same was said for Arthur Morgan pre-release, and look how that turned out.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. The simple solution is hiring a more diverse crowd, rather than the industry (and the aggressively-motivated "anti-SJW" part of the industry's consumer base) pushing out women, racial minorities and LGBTQ people at an alarming rate, whether or not it happens with malicious intent.First they need to start hiring more diverse creative leads and producers. Until i see that, then i see nothing changing.
So your trying to tell me that their creative vision consist of only white leads? because it might as well be the majority. Wait it is....It sucks that you think these developers and artists are just "defaulting" to a certain skin color for their characters, rather than having some kind of creative vision in mind. That may be the case some of the time, but I doubt it is the majority of the time.
That's the difference between heritage and visual representation.I'm interested in a thought experiment. If we took Niko Bellic, Michael Desanta and Trevor Phillips asked 1000 gamers both American and European. How many would think that there a distinct diverse set of characters and how many would think there all "generic" white males
that's something I'm afraid of. they saw 2 movies and a game with a female lead and felt under-represented as white dudes themselves...It sucks that you think these developers and artists are just "defaulting" to a certain skin color for their characters, rather than having some kind of creative vision in mind. That may be the case some of the time, but I doubt it is the majority of the time.
Let's just forget that Battlefront 2, the new trilogy and Rogue One had female leads and diverse Co Stars. But only a few hours after the new game has been announced, there's already such an unnecessary thread.
Isn't it kinda racist already thinking about the fact, that a non white/male Character would be more interesting?
I find it tiring, that such discussions are now a norm, especially here.
Sorry if all those points were already made, I didn't want to read all the pages.
Might get banned for drive by or whatever. But seeing more and more of these kind of threads/discussions over problems that aren't really there, but people just can't see something not be diverse or perfectly correct, are taking away the need, urge or fun to post anyway.
Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I'm not a native speaker :)
There doesn't have to be an argument because they don't have to justify itReading this thread and boyyy some of the arguments in support of the protagonists' race and gender is fucking terrible.
Why Lord of the Rings in particular? i mean it's pretty anglo saxon.Its never bothered me in fictional settings except for The Lord of the Rings.
So your trying to tell me that their creative vision consist of only white leads? because it might as well be the majority. Wait it is....
that's something I'm afraid of. they saw 2 movies and a game with a female lead and felt under-represented as white dudes themselves...
I'm talking in general terms. I imagine most creatives have a more firm version in their heads than just "whatever, let's default to white guy!" If you want to talk about a specific dev or publisher, we can do that, too.
Who are you talking about?
I'm talking in general terms. I imagine most creatives have a more firm version in their heads than just "whatever, let's default to white guy!" If you want to talk about a specific dev or publisher, we can do that, too.
This is how I feel about him. I don't care what race or color he is. I just think he looks really boring. The trailer does hint at his costume changing over the course of the game, so I think he'll look more like a Jedi as the game goes on. But he'll still have that boring and generic hair cut. It looks like they threw a spacer costume on Tom Holland or something.it's not that he's a white dude
it's that he's the generic nathan drake looking mfer
there's nothing interesting about his visual appearance, looks like generic movie actor with american accent #3953
he isn't nero, dante, v-esque
he isn't geralt-esque
he isn't ezio, joel, kratos
he isn't doctor dude from vampyr, or agent 47 from hitman
he isn't artyom or corvo or adam jensen
he doesn't even come across as more interesting as the most generic white dude protag, BJ from wolfenstein
there's nothing to the character seen in the trailer - and that's where the "bland" shit comes from
if he was wearing interesting clothes or had some badass character moment in the trailer, this would be a very different conversation
that's something I'm afraid of. they saw 2 movies and a game with a female lead and felt under-represented as white dudes themselves...
I'm sure this is sarcasm.that's something I'm afraid of. they saw 2 movies and a game with a female lead and felt under-represented as white dudes themselves...
I'm interested in a thought experiment. If we took Niko Bellic, Michael Desanta and Trevor Phillips asked 1000 gamers both American and European. How many would think that there a distinct diverse set of characters and how many would think there all "generic" white males
You not thinking it's a problem doesn't erase the issue for others. Seriously, what's the problem with being a bit tired of similar protagonists game after game, film after film? Not saying the game sucks, not saying the devs are racist, just not a fan of the character and for some odd reason, that really bothers some of you. I think reactions such as yours are the reason why these topics are needed. If you don't like the subject, don't engage with it. These topics have always been the norm here, so I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be surprised.
it is. but reading some opinions in here (and the reveal thread) I don't think it's that crazy of an assumption anymore.
I'm talking in general terms. I imagine most creatives have a more firm version in their heads than just "whatever, let's default to white guy!" If you want to talk about a specific dev or publisher, we can do that, too.
No... the point is Americans generally view diversity in broad racial categories "white" and "black". Europeans tend to view diversity in categories like ethnicity or nationality. I think the American view of diversity is too reductionist. You can put these 3 characters as part of the same group but it's not helpful
I can count positive portrayals of LGBT people in games on my hands. When that stops being the case for LGBT people, women and racial minorities, as it is with the characters that represent the majority, people will stop the critique. It's that simple.
Max Payne isn't a new character, he's established. Though his design was pretty shit in my opinion.