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"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing concerns surrounding diversity and inclusivity efforts.
Why being so egocentric? I was talking about an overall climate that's beginning to annoy all the devs of the world because each minority wants to be vocable for very superficial reasons.
Solving a micro injustice only lead to another injustices. Don't you see the absurdity of the situation where each minority in the world will begin to claim their spotlight? It's not possible to please everybody and devs now feel obliged to censure themselves by our fault. If really something has to be "fixed", we better concentrate our efforts on law. Please, leave games alone.
What you babbling about? japan isn't america. I expect nothing from them, other then not to be racist/insensitive if they do indeed have a poc character in their game.
What? censure themselves? uh
Is there a language barrier happening? 'please leave games alone"? culture representation is a big step towards having an effect on laws and other society preceded norms.
And where are you getting this from? This seems to be you projecting your thoughts onto devs. Now who's being egocentric?
So which is it? Letting the artists do their job or self-censorship?
Nobody is buying this crap from you.
Who ever this person is, is being very transparent. Like you know he doesn't understand shit, when it comes to the history of art, society and politics. Which people used art to rely every kind of societal and political message/movement for centuries.
User warned: Thread whining
Let's just forget that Battlefront 2, the new trilogy and Rogue One had female leads and diverse Co Stars. But only a few hours after the new game has been announced, there's already such an unnecessary thread.
Isn't it kinda racist already thinking about the fact, that a non white/male Character would be more interesting?
I find it tiring, that such discussions are now a norm, especially here.
Sorry if all those points were already made, I didn't want to read all the pages.
Might get banned for drive by or whatever. But seeing more and more of these kind of threads/discussions over problems that aren't really there, but people just can't see something not be diverse or perfectly correct, are taking away the need, urge or fun to post anyway.
Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I'm not a native speaker :)
Isn't it kinda racist already thinking about the fact, that a non white/male Character would be more interesting?
I find it tiring, that such discussions are now a norm, especially here.
Sorry if all those points were already made, I didn't want to read all the pages.
Might get banned for drive by or whatever. But seeing more and more of these kind of threads/discussions over problems that aren't really there, but people just can't see something not be diverse or perfectly correct, are taking away the need, urge or fun to post anyway.
Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I'm not a native speaker :)
As far as I can tell, they seem to think that because not all races can be represented equally, it is worthless to even try. They seem to buy into the idea that game designers are being forced to make POC leads, and that is a violation of art. Obviously this is because the white male heteronormative is the natural state of the world, and to do even the most minor tweak to that formula is a violation of the artist's vision.
There also seems to be a minor concern that this discussion might impact game developers in Japan, which of course, would be a bad thing. So yeah I guess the discussion is over then, Representation is pointless and to try and encourage change is actually the worst thing you could do.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but that is honestly what it reads like to me.
I personally feel it would have come across just as dull in the trailer. Hell even if it had been an alien, the dialogue is just so ehhhhh.
Perhaps the conversation wouldn't be needed if the industry weren't so hostile and exclusionary towards minorities. Then they could tell their stories the way that they like and the discussion would be a moot point.
But you know that we don't live in such an egalitarian world. And until we do, yeah, we have to remind game developers in the societal majority that other kinds of people exist and have a story worth telling that people will willingly pay money for. There's a solution to the annoyance you feel about this discussion, but the industry doesn't seem to have much of an interest in pursuing. So if they don't want to hear it anymore, perhaps they should look around the room at their co-workers and realize why they won't stop hearing about it from the people giving them their money to keep them employed.
That doesn't really change the fact that we are still defaulting to pale skin and male as representing the human species for the vast majority of main character roles.
First they need to start hiring more diverse creative leads and producers. Until i see that, then i see nothing changing.
You not thinking it's a problem doesn't erase the issue for others. Seriously, what's the problem with being a bit tired of similar protagonists game after game, film after film? Not saying the game sucks, not saying the devs are racist, just not a fan of the character and for some odd reason, that really bothers some of you. I think reactions such as yours are the reason why these topics are needed. If you don't like the subject, don't engage with it. These topics have always been the norm here, so I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be surprised.
It sucks that you think these developers and artists are just "defaulting" to a certain skin color for their characters, rather than having some kind of creative vision in mind. That may be the case some of the time, but I doubt it is the majority of the time.
Reading this thread and boyyy some of the arguments in support of the protagonists' race and gender is fucking terrible.
Wait for what? You do realize people are talking about his design right? Unless you expect it to drastically change, my opinion isn't going to take a 180 just because he has a compelling character arc.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. The simple solution is hiring a more diverse crowd, rather than the industry (and the aggressively-motivated "anti-SJW" part of the industry's consumer base) pushing out women, racial minorities and LGBTQ people at an alarming rate, whether or not it happens with malicious intent.
So your trying to tell me that their creative vision consist of only white leads? because it might as well be the majority. Wait it is....
I'm interested in a thought experiment. If we took Niko Bellic, Michael Desanta and Trevor Phillips asked 1000 gamers both American and European. How many would think that there a distinct diverse set of characters and how many would think there all "generic" white males
That's the difference between heritage and visual representation.
that's something I'm afraid of. they saw 2 movies and a game with a female lead and felt under-represented as white dudes themselves...
Hi, so I'm going to try to write a response to your points as respectfully as possible. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself but, when many posters comment that they find the perspective of another white male jedi boring, they are not saying that being a white male is bad. What I believe many are trying to communicate is that we have seen that perspective often. It has been the default perspective of the vast majority of Star Wars fiction ranging from the books to the games, to the comics. A change in gender, or race, or species, might seem superficial but it can do a lot to provide new context to the protagonist.
You are right that the movies have begun to feature more minorities and women in leading roles, and most are happy about that I think. Games however, have often been locked into a fairly limited perspective. More than any medium Video Games invite the player to identify and inhabit the perspective of the main character, because you control them. To some, it would be empowering to be able to play a perspective other than what is so often the default.
The Video game medium is going through some changes these past few years. They are seeking to appeal to larger and larger audiences, and part of that is trying to become more inclusive to other genders/sexualities/and ethnicities. People feel the urge to speak up now because the lines of communication with developers is more open then it has ever been. I can understand that you don't want to think about these issues, and that it might take some of the fun out of gaming to know that what you enjoy is maybe disappointing or even hurtful to another person, but that is no reason to insult or diminish them. Most people here are not trying to be hurtful, rather they are trying to express why representation matters to them.
There doesn't have to be an argument because they don't have to justify it
Why Lord of the Rings in particular? i mean it's pretty anglo saxon.
I'm talking in general terms. I imagine most creatives have a more firm version in their heads than just "whatever, let's default to white guy!" If you want to talk about a specific dev or publisher, we can do that, too.
Who are you talking about?
It's less a creative choice more of a default choice. Rather it's subconscious or conscious or even mandated to a degree. The sheer lack of diversity in games, when it comes to character leads is quite amazing to behold laid down bare. It's far to numerous in such a creative field to be mare coincidence. Now it may not be nefarious but there's surely a disconnect.
We have enough evidence to suggest that there's a bit of that in this industry, as much of what we see in games is rigorously focus-tested and thus defaults to the tastes of the majority.
But even beyond that... what does it say to you when a creative's "firm vision" rarely to never features anything BUT a white male?
This is how I feel about him. I don't care what race or color he is. I just think he looks really boring. The trailer does hint at his costume changing over the course of the game, so I think he'll look more like a Jedi as the game goes on. But he'll still have that boring and generic hair cut. It looks like they threw a spacer costume on Tom Holland or something.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be a issue for others, everyone has a right for his opinion, so do you and so do I. And nowadays I don't think you can be tired because the same protagonist over and over. Wouldn't you agree, that nowadays there's more diversity than ever before? Not saying it's to much or that there couldn't be more, cause it definitely can. But it seems to me, that every time a game, a movie, TV series or whatever doesn't have a PoC, female or minority as lead or isn't diverse enough altogether, there needs to be a discussion.
It seems like every lead character HAS to be diverse.
Also, isn't it kinda paradox arguing, that my type of reaction is a reason for such a discussion, even though I just post because it exists^^
You could also call it vicous circle I guess.
It don't think such discussions are unnecessary all together. They are necessary at times. But this time, especially this soon, it might be unnecessary, at least that's what I think.
I'm a native american, and it sucks my video game playable character representation comes down to "One of the four racist fighting game character designs"
Turok
And the guy from Prey
The best bit of representation I think for us has been this, thanks to the people going back and re working thunder with the help of the actual tribe he is a part of to make him as accurate to them as possible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=R_Hkq3LZrro
I like most people of color would like more representation in our hobby, plus it would be cool to just see more varied character designs in general.
Turok
And the guy from Prey
The best bit of representation I think for us has been this, thanks to the people going back and re working thunder with the help of the actual tribe he is a part of to make him as accurate to them as possible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=R_Hkq3LZrro
I like most people of color would like more representation in our hobby, plus it would be cool to just see more varied character designs in general.
it is. but reading some opinions in here (and the reveal thread) I don't think it's that crazy of an assumption anymore.
I actually don't think they do, at least not in the way you think. You seriously underestimate just how pervasive white as the norm/default is and how that affects things. They probably have some actor in mind as inspirations and when the vast majority of those people are white dudes, that inspiration tends to be one too. Or they simply tend to create characters that feel familiar to them, which again, leads to the same issue as most creatives in the industry are white guys. It's why people always suggest more diversity in creative teams. Simply having a different perspective or who you idolize or who feels familiar to you leads to different outcomes.
No... the point is Americans generally view diversity in broad racial categories "white" and "black". Europeans tend to view diversity in categories like ethnicity or nationality. I think the American view of diversity is too reductionist. You can put these 3 characters as part of the same group but it's not helpful
I can count positive portrayals of LGBT people in games on my hands. When that stops being the case for LGBT people, women and racial minorities, as it is with the characters that represent the majority, people will stop the critique. It's that simple.
Max Payne isn't a new character, he's established. Though his design was pretty shit in my opinion.
Max turns into a washed version of the Punisher in 3
Which isn't what his character is meant to be in 1/2
He's also an established character from 2001