quick and dirty illustration of the problem:
It is a little disingenuous for the graphic to skip all the games that DON'T have set white male protagonists, though.
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"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
It is a little disingenuous for the graphic to skip all the games that DON'T have set white male protagonists, though.
quick and dirty illustration of the problem:
I had no idea X-wing and TIE Fighter had an official protagonist, was this from the instruction manuals?
I would be ok if he didn't look like the default white placeholder of a custom character creation screen.
From H.G Wells and Tolken, White dudes been saving the day slaying dragons and punching big bads. Can others get a chance? Science Fiction and Fantasy can create amazing worlds, how about lettings others live in them and not be the love interest or plucky side kick.
Oh, of course! I understand your point wholeheartedly, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying minority characters shouldn't deal with those sociopolitical issues. All I'm saying is that, if a white cis-het male character doesn't deal with any of those issues in a story, a black trans-queer intersex individual wouldn't deal with them either.
However...
...This is also true. I am losing the nuance by not exploring the issues that a black lesbian would face, but I also don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. That's how I look at it.
User Banned (1 week): History of dismissing Concerns on Representation and Inclusivity
Wouldn't a person not buying a game because it has a white dude make them you know, a bigot?
I skipped Battlefront 2 because single player was a relatively short addition to a multiplayer game. My rough test is whether the character is the "mascot" of the game, at least for post-DOS titles. I suppose I could use her the same way EA did in the cover art- wearing a pilot's mask so you can't tell her gender. Other games like KOTOR have custom protagonists with no canon look. What else am I missing? Like I said, it was quick and dirty.
Yeah but THE main characters are still and most likely will always be white.
Black people and other PoC are good for short stories, comic books and a two hour tutorial campaign in a multiplayer focused game but never good enough for the big movies that 90% of the world will eventually end up seeing. They are always the friend of the side kick and just recently have been upgraded to THE actual sidekick with E7 and 8.
With Clarice Starling, she has to be a woman for her interaction with Hannibal to work. It's the ebb and flow of their entire relationship and (on a more icky side of things) if Lector has romantic feelings towards her. If the film calls for an open cast for the role of Detective Starling and the screenplay was changed to reflect that, then we wouldn't get a tenth of the more intricate or intimate moments that we do in the current film.
That's the old hat argument I've mentioned in my post because I knew it would be used as an excuse to continue the status quo. Diversity in any medium can always be a good thing, but it truly sings when the creative platforms make an effort to make them fleshed out characters.
Aye, as Terrell posted in response below being "just allowed to be" can be empowering too. One example that I tend to find frustrating is the depiction of say non-western countries in cinema as often being ravaged by war and crime in the future - as if we can't imagine a future for a set of non-western locations that isn't positive.
If you were to write something with say, for example (because there's been prevalent conflicts recently), a middle eastern country in the future being idealistic and free of being war ridden - even without any real context of how it got to that point - there's still value to that depending on it's execution. Depicting them as war torn or terror mongering perpetuates this idea that there's no opportunity for change. However, a story exploring the nuances and depths of how it got to that point would be great too. Particularly if it wasn't simply based on a western capitalist vision of what's the idealistic future for a country.
Absolutely, fair point. It generally comes down to how it's executed and the intention behind it.
Yeahhhhh that doesn't track. Iden was all over the place in their marketing, the actress presented the game in multiple places, and they touted the Single Player a lot as well. You'd also have to be blind to not be able to tell that Iden is a woman on the front cover.
They even DLC single player content about her. I enjoyed her story. It feels like you're ignoring her to make a point.
I guess this is an example of why it's impossible to please people when it comes to this issue.
The three main good guys (four if we include Rose) in the new star wars, not a single one is a white male, and yet people are still unhappy about the diversity.
Jedi Academy and the KOTOR games had canon designs for their protagonists, even though they gave you the option of selecting a different race/gender. In Legends canon, Revan and Jaden Korr are both white males, and Meetra Surik aka the Jedi Exile is a white woman. Revan and Meetra both appeared in their canon designs in The Old Republic.
"We gave you what you wanted this one time, why are you still talking about it?"
May not have been your intention, but it can easily read as advocating tokenism.
I don't believe I said that, or what you're implying from it.
The only white male in the new Star Wars cast is the bad guy. We should be celebrating that, not complaining that the diversity is the "wrong kind of diversity".
It doesn't make them more interesting. It creates another minority character at no cost.
Ok but why not? if a minority has a problem with say the way Finn is written/marketed as a character in comparison to Rey seeing as how they're both leads of the new Star Wars movie there are legitimate points to be made. Many of my black friends have found it hard to be excited for the sequel trilogy because they see some of the ways LF has handled Finn's story to be lacking. We should be able to criticize attempts at writing diverse characters and not just accept whatever is give to us.
You're right. But that question was sort of directed at ppl saying it's boring to play as a white male.
I once had a discussion with a friend he was complaining about female led comedies going down to the level of men. Why do they need these childish rude comedies? Movie studios shouldn't go to that level with there female led movies but make great content.
I told him we just want an equal piece of the pie. Why can white men have all these mediocre and bad things but there has to be a reason for a character to not be white or male.
You should suggest to him Broad City so he can see just how wrong he is
Starting off with "it's impossible to please people when it comes to this issue" doesn't give one an impression that you're coming at this discussion from the right angle, seeing it as if positive representation is intended for appeasement of minority groups above all other things. Nor does saying that anyone having further reason to critique is equivalent to looking a gift horse in the mouth, as you've just further implied with this post above.
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Ah, alright. I think people are just getting at the idea of a white male being "the default," and hence, them as characters being "boring."
OP
OP
Your making the assumption that the current form of the movie is the most ideal interpretation that it can be. Truth is, we don't actually know that, of any movie.
Moreover, nothing your describing is gender exclusive either. The show Hannibal stars Will Graham as the protagonists, but incorporates several elements of the Hannibal-Clarice relationship, including the possibility of a romantic attraction between the two.
Not only does it work while being a relationship like nothing anyone's ever seen, I would argue it's the best adaptation of Hannibal lector in general.
Your stuck in the mindset that because you like silence of the lambs, the way it was made is only way it could be made while still being good. This is not true. You can say that the gender dynamics in SotL is used to enhance the movie, but they aren't inherent to the movie being as good as it is.
nah. twisting shit to defend the white-dude-dominated status quo in games, tho...
pulling the 'you're being racist/sexist against white dudes!' card is never a good look, man.
yah i never liked that they did that, but it was still better than nothing. like, i can think back on kotor, and remember how both the exile and revan were women, regardless of what other expanded universe stuff outside of those games might say.
nothing about skin color is interesting to me. To me its like pointing to a mole on someones cheek and being like, "is this character more interesting now?". It mean nothing unless its given context in the world it is set in
The idea of white supremacy and portraying to the world a white saviour of the universe superceeds gender and sexual orientation. If you are an underrepresented black person but still a fan of the media you are underrepresented in, what does a white, gay, female lead character do for you?
lol why don't you tell us how you really feel
White men are not under attack here.
I think you'll find that lots of people on Era tend to think that it is actually an act of bravery and taking a stand in favor of diversity.
If you acknowledge that there are more white male protagonists that minority protagonists and that their whiteness has no bearing on the character, then you should have no problem with making said character a minority character.
Why do we need a reason to be the story lead?
Why can't we be the playable focus for no other reason except just cause. Thats the same reasoning being used for white males.
Its boring to play as a white male because majority of games have playable white males if the lead is a human character.
See how all these criteria come out the woodwork for other's but not for the default.
Pretty sure the poster you're quoting is not saying that there needs to be a reason for other races to be the main character in a game. Just like there doesn't need to be a reason for a white guy to be the main character.
He's just responding to opinions that to be white and male in a video game is automatically less interesting, regardless of anything else.
You're reading into something that isn't there. Don't see anyone attaching criteria to making protagonists not white and male.
True. They have a lot of work to do. Especially in the games.
Surely it's just posturing on Era's part and not the fact that we would legitimately like to see more minorities as leads in video games
Surely
I was being 100% sincere in that post. I don't think most people who think that way are posturing at all.
Its an extremely circular question however.
This thread is based on the concept that people were disappointed to see the new character lead as a white male in a franchise that has growing representation because the game industry already has a vast collection of white male leads in previous titles.
If you're asking "what makes other races more interesting" as a response to the topic, you've 100% missed the point of the thread and nobody can expect you to actually understand the issue.
Like nobody can lack that much understanding.
In his follow up post he specified that he was responding to the sentiment that white and male is boring and uninteresting.
There are a lot of different arguments and points being presented in this thread as part of the overarching topic. It's fair game to respond to them individually.
A non-white male lead is infinitely more interesting than a white male lead based on the fact that they aren't a white male lead alone...
Sorry, but I don't think there is a single person in this thread that likes to see the same thing over and over again, no matter how much they try to play that bullshit "I don't see color in videogames" card. White male leads are literally the norm. Some of you sound particularly hurt for no reason in this thread...
Sorry, but I don't think there is a single person in this thread that likes to see the same thing over and over again, no matter how much they try to play that bullshit "I don't see color in videogames" card. White male leads are literally the norm. Some of you sound particularly hurt for no reason in this thread...
User Banned (3 Days): Trolling, Dismissing Concerns on Representation and Inclusivity
If the first thing you see when you look at someone is color you are a racist. If the only important character trait is sex you are a sexist. Everyone who complains about the sex or color of anyone is the textbook definition of a bigot.
Humanity is what we relate to. When kids play they dont pick heroes based of color they pick off courage and badassery. No kid ever said I would like Spiderman but he's white or I would like Spawn but he's a black. Not ever. White kids argue over who gets to be Black Panther same as Mexicans argue over who gets to be Wolverine. Kids dont see color or need representation. It's a way to divide us and push certain agendas.
I saw a trailer for what may be the best Star Wars game ever. That's what we should be talking about. Not complaining a character in a game is a certain race and sex.
Humanity is what we relate to. When kids play they dont pick heroes based of color they pick off courage and badassery. No kid ever said I would like Spiderman but he's white or I would like Spawn but he's a black. Not ever. White kids argue over who gets to be Black Panther same as Mexicans argue over who gets to be Wolverine. Kids dont see color or need representation. It's a way to divide us and push certain agendas.
I saw a trailer for what may be the best Star Wars game ever. That's what we should be talking about. Not complaining a character in a game is a certain race and sex.
I agree with you completely. It should be just cause. Im asking how can a character be boring just cause of his or her race? Having different races is a must, but it doesn't decide if a character is boring or not.
Try again
https://broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/zmwq3x/why-diversity-on-screen-is-important-black-panther
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Sadly, little has changed since the 80s. A 2011 study conducted by The Opportunity Agenda found that black males in media are usually portrayed negatively, limited to a handful of "positive" stereotypes, painted as flat characters, or missing altogether. (Last year's USC Annenberg report, for example, found that a quarter of the 900 movies analyzed didn't have even one speaking or named black character.) Audiences—especially those with little exposure to those outside of their community—typically equate these limited, and harsh, media representations with the real world. That, in turn, can lead to "less attention from doctors to harsher sentencing by judges, lower likelihood of being hired for a job or admitted to school, lower odds of getting loans, and a higher likelihood of being shot by police," the authors write.
The report also found that black males themselves were impacted by these media portrayals: "Negative media stereotypes (thugs, criminals, fools, and the disadvantaged) are demoralizing and reduce self-esteem and expectations," they write, adding that they can also create stress and "drain cognitive resources in some contexts.""
Exactly, people want different imagery. Hell, even a playable character who's disabled opens up a ton of gameplay ideas and options. Its inherently creatively limiting to stick to the same ass archetypes
Only someone who doesn't know a goddamn lick about history could post something this stupid.
Just completely ignore the history of racism and sexism and its current day effects on modern society.
Its a commentary on visual description not the character's worth.
There are 100 artists making pictures, and you decide to look at them at an art gallery. When you look, 96 of the artists made pictures using the color Red when you know the artists had 7 colors available to them to make their art. Thats boring.
A human is a human. A character isnt great just because they are a minority. Spartan locke was super boring and there is about 0% of halo fans who would like another game starring him.
Far more would like another game starring master chief or even the arbiter.
The oppositie is true for Watch dogs. Marcus was great and people would loved another game with him... Aiden sucked and nobody cared he was replaced
In gears 5 most dont care kait is replacing JD because he was pretty boring and she was far more interesting.
Writing is far more important to a character than what race they are. I mean obviously of course.
You do not have a handle on this discussion whatsoever, and quite frankly, this "you shouldn't care about skin color" tripe that gets brought up every time I want to see something other than a whiteguy got tiring after the first few attempts...
Making a claim like "a human is a human", especially in this capacity, is an insult to the concept of individuality and diversity (things ALL humans possess), period...
It's funny because their race and sex isn't important to their character. At all.
And as DigitalOp phrased it:
When the majority of video games star white men whose skin color nor sex matters to the story, it begs the question, "why couldn't have this person been another race or sex in the effort of creating diversity?"
Like, TLOU would have lost absolutely nothing if Joel was an Asian man or a Black woman.
And the point is for more minority characters to get the opportunity to be written boring or written well.
Everything you said means diddly squat if a minority character can't even get a lead role to get the OPPORTUNITY for having a good characterization from writing.
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This is how gnoclaude sees the world
Lol 😂
Im talking from a writing perspective.
I support diversity in lead characters to be sure.
But just because a character is one race or another has no bearing on whether they will be an interesting character.
Doesn't mean you or anyone else should not be happy when a minority character is brought to life. Its a chance to have a good character, obviously.