It is a little disingenuous for the graphic to skip all the games that DON'T have set white male protagonists, though.
I'm not saying you couldn't make a good/great piece of media by using ones' gender or race interchangeably. That what seem to be working in Hollywood now. What I mean is the subtle nuisances that makes the characters more than the sum of their parts. I'm not asking for a dissertation or a complete cultural deconstruction guys relax, lol. Okay, several of you guys mentioned Ripley, great female lead and not meant to be. This works well in a sci-fi/fantasy setting where you could create an entire universe free from the social/economical baggage that our current world has. Templates are fine for settings like this because you're free to create, edit, change, and explore as much or as little of the characters background without real-world commentaries should you so chose (which makes it a problem when most people use male/white for their humanoid characters, but I digress). But let's take another strong female character, Clarice Starling from Silence of the Lamb. She lives in a world similar to our own and have to fight an uphill battle with doing her job, often times butting heads with her superiors, peers, and other men in she interacts with. Her entire story would change drastically if she was anything other than a woman. See what I mean?
...This is also true. I am losing the nuance by not exploring the issues that a black lesbian would face, but I also don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. That's how I look at it.It obviously depends on the context of the whole story. For me, I'd suggest that exploring the sociopolitical aspects of being a black lesbian would only serve to grant further authenticity the character and the story - but that's only a surface level observation. I don't think failing to do so would render things completely pointless or weak (it can still be a strong story, regardless), it would just lose a level of nuance that the might help a black lesbian reading this character to identify with them.
I feel this. To me it's not even that f these protags are white. It's that they're fucking boring. Most of them are basic looking "ladykillers" with a dark and troubled past and spotty morals. Bonus point if they're Daddies and regret what they've done in the past now that they have a kid.
Sometimes the writers do something with it so that White Male protags are interesting (For example I like what was done with John Marston from RDR1), but most of the time it's a warning sign for me that this game's about to be average lol. Plus, humans have all these beautiful, interesting and unique variations. It makes 0 sense other than being a bigot (let's be honest)/uncreative (let's be honest) for sooo many of these protags to be White dudes, ESPECIALLY in 2019 when people KNOW that POC and Women play video games (I mean, we always have, but cmon).
And before anyone quotes me, if you want your protag to be a white dude then go ahead, make the game, but then don't whine when people 1. Call you out on being unoriginal and 2. Don't buy your game.
As for this new game, honestly my main problem with him is that he looks like Tom Holland. What's Spiderman doing in space?
It is a little disingenuous for the graphic to skip all the games that DON'T have set white male protagonists, though.
Yeah but THE main characters are still and most likely will always be white.Lot of misinformation here. Here's a list taken from IMDB of the top characters from each of the Star Wars movies since Disney took over the franchise:
VII
Old characters
Han Solo
Luke Skywalker
Princess Leia
C-3PO
Chewbacca
New Good Guys
Rey
Finn
Poe Dameron
Maz Kanata
New Bad Guys
Kylo Ren
Supreme Leader Snoke
General Hux
Captain Phasma
Rogue One
Old Characters
Darth Vader
Governor Tarkin
Mon Mothma
Bail Organa
New Good Guys
Jyn Erso
Galen Erso
Cassian Andor
K-2SO
Chirrut Imwe
Baze Malbus
Saw Gerrera
Bodhi Rook
New Bad Guys
Director Orson Krennic
Solo
Old Characters
Han Solo
Chewbacca
Lando Calrissian
New Good Guys
Qi-ra
Val
Enfys Nest
L3-37
Rio Durant
New Bad Guys
Beckett
Dryden Vos
VIII
Old Characters
Luke Skywalker
Leia Organa
C-3PO
Yoda
New Good Guys
Rey
Finn
Poe
Rose Tico
Vice Admiral Holdo
New Bad Guys
Kylo Ren
Snoke
General Hux
Captain Phasma
DJ
--
I have not seen Rebels, nor have I played the campaign in Battlefront and Battlefront 2.
However, out of the main movies here, the new white male characters introduced into the franchise have been villains. The sole exception is Galen Erso in Rogue One, and Poe Dameron. As well, every single new villain introduced has been a white person, if they are not an alien (surely Snoke is white/grey?). Almost every single new protagonist in these movies has been either a woman or PoC.
Star Wars -at least the live action movies- since the Disney takeover, has been quite diversified, if you consider that they aren't going to be changing the ethnicity of an existing character.
With Clarice Starling, she has to be a woman for her interaction with Hannibal to work. It's the ebb and flow of their entire relationship and (on a more icky side of things) if Lector has romantic feelings towards her. If the film calls for an open cast for the role of Detective Starling and the screenplay was changed to reflect that, then we wouldn't get a tenth of the more intricate or intimate moments that we do in the current film.You started this by saying "No one wants a situation where there's diversity for diversity sake," and we're saying we very much do. You argue from this position as if people are actively trying to discourage how minority background interactions happen, but nobody is saying that. We're just pointing out that you don't need to include those interactions with your story to include minorities.
To use your example, yes, the movie Silence of the Lambs would indeed be very different if you changed the gender and sourthern background interactions that Clarice has Hannibal and other characters. You are correct that it would indeed result in a different movie. However, that doesn't necessarily entail that it would be an inferior movie. Nor does it entail that it would be a superior one, either, sure, but the argument I'm making here is that having those interactions is neither necessary nor inherently beneficial to the story.
You don't need a fantasy story to accomplish this. You can make this happen in a real life setting. It would be statistically improbable to have an interaction between two people that is purely egalitarian without bias' towards whatever minority status a cahracter has, but that doesn't actually matter. If 99% act differently towards a woman than they do a man, there is nothing stopping you from writing the super-rare character that doesn't. That's not even unrealistic, really, just rare. And it's also ignoring the fact that most movies in general have unrealistic interactions as a conceit of whatever plot their having.
Again, to use your example, you don't necessarily need to write the gender dynamics between Clarice Starling and Hannibal Lector using the justification that it's realistic because Hannibal lector himself isn't a realistic character. Some aspects of his characterization are true, but you try finding highbrow hyper-intellectual sociopath cannibals whose ethics are based in politeness and etiquetteand see how many you find. If the lack of statistical relevance doesn't matter to writing a character like Hannibal Lector, why would it be the case for his gender interactions?
That's the old hat argument I've mentioned in my post because I knew it would be used as an excuse to continue the status quo. Diversity in any medium can always be a good thing, but it truly sings when the creative platforms make an effort to make them fleshed out characters.I really hate the dog whistle "diversity for the sake of diversity ", what does it even mean. That having a poc, woman, lqbtq character needs to have a reason to exist and usurp the white straight male standard?
Oh, of course! I understand your point wholeheartedly, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying minority characters shouldn't deal with those sociopolitical issues. All I'm saying is that, if a white cis-het male character doesn't deal with any of those issues in a story, a black trans-queer intersex individual wouldn't deal with them either.
However...
...This is also true. I am losing the nuance by not exploring the issues that a black lesbian would face, but I also don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. That's how I look at it.
Yes. To further that point, to see such a character devoid of the usual socio-political struggles associated with them can be seen as aspirational or empowering to some, in that they are just allowed to be. That also has value in some respects, even for stories set in our socio-political backdrop.
Many hack writers use minority struggles in lazy and haphazard ways purely to add characterization where there is none otherwise, as a form of tokenism, while over-use of the technique noted above is seen as attempting to erase the struggles of minority groups in media. So while I don't recommend such a technique, I would also not discourage it. As with most things, used in moderation and used responsibly, it's totally fine.
I skipped Battlefront 2 because single player was a relatively short addition to a multiplayer game. My rough test is whether the character is the "mascot" of the game, at least for post-DOS titles. I suppose I could use her the same way EA did in the cover art- wearing a pilot's mask so you can't tell her gender. Other games like KOTOR have custom protagonists with no canon look. What else am I missing? Like I said, it was quick and dirty.
Yeah but THE main characters are still and most likely will always be white.
Jedi Academy and the KOTOR games had canon designs for their protagonists, even though they gave you the option of selecting a different race/gender. In Legends canon, Revan and Jaden Korr are both white males, and Meetra Surik aka the Jedi Exile is a white woman. Revan and Meetra both appeared in their canon designs in The Old Republic.Other games like KOTOR have custom protagonists with no canon look. What else am I missing? Like I said, it was quick and dirty.
"We gave you what you wanted this one time, why are you still talking about it?"I guess this is an example of why it's impossible to please people when it comes to this issue.
The three main good guys (four if we include Rose) in the new star wars, not a single one is a white male, and yet people are still unhappy about the diversity.
"We gave you what you wanted this one time, why are you still talking about it?"
May not have been your intention, but it can easily read as advocating tokenism.
It doesn't make them more interesting. It creates another minority character at no cost.I'd like to other races as main characters myself, but how does it make the character more interesting? The character will probably be the same just with a different ethnicity.
I don't believe I said that, or what you're implying from it.
The only white male in the new Star Wars cast is the bad guy. We should be celebrating that, not complaining that the diversity is the "wrong kind of diversity".
You're right. But that question was sort of directed at ppl saying it's boring to play as a white male.It doesn't make them more interesting. It creates another minority character at no cost.
I really hate the dog whistle "diversity for the sake of diversity ", what does it even mean. That having a poc, woman, lqbtq character needs to have a reason to exist and usurp the white straight male standard?
I once had a discussion with a friend he was complaining about female led comedies going down to the level of men. Why do they need these childish rude comedies? Movie studios shouldn't go to that level with there female led movies but make great content.
I told him we just want an equal piece of the pie. Why can white men have all these mediocre and bad things but there has to be a reason for a character to not be white or male.
Starting off with "it's impossible to please people when it comes to this issue" doesn't give one an impression that you're coming at this discussion from the right angle, seeing it as if positive representation is intended for appeasement of minority groups above all other things. Nor does saying that anyone having further reason to critique is equivalent to looking a gift horse in the mouth, as you've just further implied with this post above.I don't believe I said that, or what you're implying from it.
The only white male in the new Star Wars cast is the bad guy. We should be celebrating that, not complaining that the diversity is the "wrong kind of diversity".
Ah, alright. I think people are just getting at the idea of a white male being "the default," and hence, them as characters being "boring."You're right. But that question was sort of directed at ppl saying it's boring to play as a white male.
With Clarice Starling, she has to be a woman for her interaction with Hannibal to work. It's the ebb and flow of their entire relationship and (on a more icky side of things) if Lector has romantic feelings towards her. If the film calls for an open cast for the role of Detective Starling and the screenplay was changed to reflect that, then we wouldn't get a tenth of the more intricate or intimate moments that we do in the current film.
nah. twisting shit to defend the white-dude-dominated status quo in games, tho...Wouldn't a person not buying a game because it has a white dude make them you know, a bigot?
Jedi Academy and the KOTOR games had canon designs for their protagonists, even though they gave you the option of selecting a different race/gender. In Legends canon, Revan and Jaden Korr are both white males, and Meetra Surik aka the Jedi Exile is a white woman. Revan and Meetra both appeared in their canon designs in The Old Republic.
The idea of white supremacy and portraying to the world a white saviour of the universe superceeds gender and sexual orientation. If you are an underrepresented black person but still a fan of the media you are underrepresented in, what does a white, gay, female lead character do for you?I guess this is an example of why it's impossible to please people when it comes to this issue.
The three main good guys (four if we include Rose) in the new star wars, not a single one is a white male, and yet people are still unhappy about the diversity.
lol why don't you tell us how you really feelWouldn't a person not buying a game because it has a white dude make them you know, a bigot?
Wouldn't a person not buying a game because it has a white dude make them you know, a bigot?
If you acknowledge that there are more white male protagonists that minority protagonists and that their whiteness has no bearing on the character, then you should have no problem with making said character a minority character.nothing about skin color is interesting to me. To me its like pointing to a mole on someones cheek and being like, "is this character more interesting now?". It mean nothing unless its given context in the world it is set in
I'd like to other races as main characters myself, but how does it make the character more interesting? The character will probably be the same just with a different ethnicity.
You're right. But that question was sort of directed at ppl saying it's boring to play as a white male.
See how all these criteria come out the woodwork for other's but not for the default.Why do we need a reason to be the story lead?
Why can't we be the playable focus for no other reason except just cause. Thats the same reasoning being used for white males.
Its boring to play as a white male because majority of games have playable white males if the lead is a human character.
Why do we need a reason to be the story lead?
Why can't we be the playable focus for no other reason except just cause. Thats the same reasoning being used for white males.
Its boring to play as a white male because majority of games have playable white males if the lead is a human character.
See how all these criteria come out the woodwork for other's but not for the default.
Yeah but THE main characters are still and most likely will always be white.
Black people and other PoC are good for short stories, comic books and a two hour tutorial campaign in a multiplayer focused game but never good enough for the big movies that 90% of the world will eventually end up seeing. They are always the friend of the side kick and just recently have been upgraded to THE actual sidekick with E7 and 8.
Surely it's just posturing on Era's part and not the fact that we would legitimately like to see more minorities as leads in video gamesI think you'll find that lots of people on Era tend to think that it is actually an act of bravery and taking a stand in favor of diversity.
Surely it's just posturing on Era's part and not the fact that we would legitimately like to see more minorities as leads in video games
Surely
Poe's Law at it again, my apologies.I was being 100% sincere in that post. I don't think most people who think that way are posturing at all.
Pretty sure the poster you're quoting is not saying that there needs to be a reason for other races to be the main character in a game. Just like there doesn't need to be a reason for a white guy to be the main character.
He's just responding to opinions that to be white and male in a video game is automatically less interesting, regardless of anything else.
Its an extremely circular question however.
This thread is based on the concept that people were disappointed to see the new character lead as a white male in a franchise that has growing representation because the game industry already has a vast collection of white male leads in previous titles.
If you're asking "what makes other races more interesting" as a response to the topic, you've 100% missed the point of the thread and nobody can expect you to actually understand the issue.
Like nobody can lack that much understanding.
I agree with you completely. It should be just cause. Im asking how can a character be boring just cause of his or her race? Having different races is a must, but it doesn't decide if a character is boring or not.Why do we need a reason to be the story lead?
Why can't we be the playable focus for no other reason except just cause. Thats the same reasoning being used for white males.
Its boring to play as a white male because majority of games have playable white males if the lead is a human character.
Try againIf the first thing you see when you look at someone is color you are a racist. If the only important character trait is sex you are a sexist. Everyone who complains about the sex or color of anyone is the textbook definition of a bigot.
Humanity is what we relate to. When kids play they dont pick heroes based of color they pick off courage and badassery. No kid ever said I would like Spiderman but he's white or I would like Spawn but he's a black. Not ever. White kids argue over who gets to be Black Panther same as Mexicans argue over who gets to be Wolverine. Kids dont see color or need representation. It's a way to divide us and push certain agendas.
I saw a trailer for what may be the best Star Wars game ever. That's what we should be talking about. Not complaining a character in a game is a certain race and sex.
A non-white male lead is infinitely more interesting than a white male lead based on the fact that they aren't a white male lead alone...
Sorry, but I don't think there is a single person in this thread that likes to see the same thing over and over again, no matter how much they try to play that bullshit "I don't see color in videogames" card. White male leads are literally the norm. Some of you sound particularly hurt for no reason in this thread...
If the first thing you see when you look at someone is color you are a racist. If the only important character trait is sex you are a sexist. Everyone who complains about the sex or color of anyone is the textbook definition of a bigot.
Humanity is what we relate to. When kids play they dont pick heroes based of color they pick off courage and badassery. No kid ever said I would like Spiderman but he's white or I would like Spawn but he's a black. Not ever. White kids argue over who gets to be Black Panther same as Mexicans argue over who gets to be Wolverine. Kids dont see color or need representation. It's a way to divide us and push certain agendas.
I saw a trailer for what may be the best Star Wars game ever. That's what we should be talking about. Not complaining a character in a game is a certain race and sex.
I agree with you completely. It should be just cause. Im asking how can a character be boring just cause of his or her race? Having different races is a must, but it doesn't decide if a character is boring or not.
A non-white male lead is infinitely more interesting than a white male lead based on the fact that they aren't a white male lead alone...
Sorry, but I don't think there is a single person in this thread that likes to see the same thing over and over again, no matter how much they try to play that bullshit "I don't see color in videogames" card. White male leads are literally the norm. Some of you sound particularly hurt for no reason in this thread...
You do not have a handle on this discussion whatsoever, and quite frankly, this "you shouldn't care about skin color" tripe that gets brought up every time I want to see something other than a whiteguy got tiring after the first few attempts...A human is a human. A character isnt great just because they are black. Spartan locke was super boring and there is about 0% of halo fans who would like another game starring him.
Far more would like another game starring master chief or even the arbiter.
The oppositie is true for Watch dogs. Marcus was great and people would loved another game with him... Aiden sucked and nobody cared he was replaced
It's funny because their race and sex isn't important to their character. At all.If the first thing you see when you look at someone is color you are a racist. If the only important character trait is sex you are a sexist. Everyone who complains about the sex or color of anyone is the textbook definition of a bigot.
Humanity is what we relate to. When kids play they dont pick heroes based of color they pick off courage and badassery. No kid ever said I would like Spiderman but he's white or I would like Spawn but he's a black. Not ever. White kids argue over who gets to be Black Panther same as Mexicans argue over who gets to be Wolverine. Kids dont see color or need representation. It's a way to divide us and push certain agendas.
I saw a trailer for what may be the best Star Wars game ever. That's what we should be talking about. Not complaining a character in a game is a certain race and sex.
When the majority of video games star white men whose skin color nor sex matters to the story, it begs the question, "why couldn't have this person been another race or sex in the effort of creating diversity?"There are 100 artists making pictures, and you decide to look at them at an art gallery. When you look, 96 of the artists made pictures using the color Red when you know the artists had 7 colors available to them to make their art. Thats boring.
A human is a human. A character isnt great just because they are a minority. Spartan locke was super boring and there is about 0% of halo fans who would like another game starring him.
Far more would like another game starring master chief or even the arbiter.
The oppositie is true for Watch dogs. Marcus was great and people would loved another game with him... Aiden sucked and nobody cared he was replaced
In gears 5 most dont care kait is replacing JD because he was pretty boring and she was far more interesting.
Writing is far more important to a character than what race they are. I mean obviously of course.
You do not have a handle on this discussion whatsoever, and quite frankly, this "you shouldn't care about skin color" tripe that gets brought up every time I want to see something other than a whiteguy got tiring after the first few attempts...
Making a claim like "a human is a human", especially in this capacity, is an insult to the concept of individuality and diversity (things ALL humans possess), period...
That's exactly the point.Im talking from a writing perspective.
I support diversity in lead characters to be sure.
But just because a character is one race or another has no bearing on whether they will be an interesting character.
Doesn't mean you or anyone else should not be happy when a minority character is brought to life. Its a chance to have a good character, obviously.