Yoshi-P is asking players to stop being so toxic towards the FFXIV devs for decisions that they don't like during the Radio Mog Station stream

[AlexFlame116]

Saw this being mentioned a lot in the FFXIV subreddit, with the mods already being wary of having to lock the thread because of some people getting upset over it.

Video with timestamp (4:14:45 if it doesn't work):


The quote from the subreddit. Translated by u/elevenmile

"...Really, it's just one thing here. Of course I'm thankful and grateful for players to tell us that "we should do this, or this should be that" and whatnot, but verbal abuses are...(something we wish it can stop). Well, I would like to think myself as having a strong mental level in Japan, but not everyone shares the same mental strength as I do so...

Ever since the unfortunate release delay of the expansion and we did ask players to be mindful of spoilers, but for some reason there seems to be some antis (haters of the game) laying around attacking other players despite not playing the game and it was quite glaring, and I felt as if those strong words used in arguments against people ended up holding people back because of this. There is a frequently used example (or metaphor) here - It's like seeing the condition of a car in New York Downtown gets worse when it's already in bad enough condition. In other words, it's somehow an acceptable mindset to let it happen.

Which is why...well, I mean there are new players who join this game and there are many players who come from other games and of course, this also means they are players who experience Endwalker as their first expansion, so it's a given that there will be mistakes and errors here and there, but after 11 years of journey with players up to this point it does make me feel that the language used ended up a little overboard there. I mean, I can take it, even though it doesn't make it less bad, but staff members will feel really down after getting those words when they gave their absolute best into trying to create something where everyone can enjoy, and this may end up making them no longer create things that are fun from there on. So I have only one request to every players out there - please imagine that you're speaking face to face with a developer whom you may not know his name nor face and imagine how they'd feel before sending your feedback over, and I'll be happy if people can do so politely.

That's why, it will result in staff members getting gradually hurt and it's especially evident when the staff member worked so hard on it, and this doesn't help anyone, neither the staff members nor the players either. This will completely drain away their motivation and worse, they'll end up quitting because of it, which is why I hope that everyone can understand that. Considering things have been getting really extreme lately, and with staff members putting their all to make it work...I mean, of course I don't mean everything should be given praise. Mistakes are mistakes of course and they should be notified, but I'll appreciate it if everyone can give careful thought in their thoughts and feedback before sending them over." - Yoshida

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Basically he's asking for veteran players to stop being so rude or demeaning to newer players, for all players to be better when being upset at devs and providing criticism, and for all players to generally just be kinder towards each other, saying that toxicity is not going to help the devs work harder or faster.

 

[Kalentan]

I hate to say it... but is this about the Dark Knight stuff?

 

[FiXalaS]

Weird that some people were upset over this in reddit. He said nothing wrong.

 

[AlexFlame116]

I hate to say it... but is this about the Dark Knight stuff?

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Seems to be that plus a mix of things such as Endwalker's delay, no Ultimate on time, job changes (dark knight), and queue times. He's also seen more popular players like someone named Xeno (called out in the subreddit thread) who is apparently super toxic towards anyone who doesn't know the mechanics of a raid or trail instantly.

 

[toastyToast]

I hate to say it... but is this about the Dark Knight stuff?

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I read the thread for a bit and apparently it stems from the JP side where people are upset at the current state of Samurai and how cast heavy it is. Saying it effects mobility which it does. Even with the criticism with the state of Dark Knight which isn't entirely invalid, the level of vitriol is reaching absurd levels.

People really love being mad on the internet. More than most things.

 

[thetrin]

Weird that some people were upset over this in reddit. He said nothing wrong.

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What is there to be upset about? I don't even understand.

I read the thread for a bit and apparently it stems from the JP side where people are upset at the current state of Samurai and how cast heavy it is. Saying it effects mobility which it does. Even with the criticism with the state of Dark Knight which isn't entirely invalid, the level of vitriol is reaching absurd levels.

People really love being mad on the internet. More than most things.

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And unfortunately, in Japanese, people tend to jump to "kill yourself" with no ramp up in between.

 

[Kuosi]

Oh they now listening to non JP players?

 

[Irikan]

I hate to say it... but is this about the Dark Knight stuff?

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Lol wouldn't surprise me, I've seen quite a bit of overreaction towards the state of the job. Like.. yeah, the job isn't in a great place, but jesus christ the toxicity of some of these people.

It's strange because FFXIV has a reputation for it's fanbase loving it's dev team and giving them a lot of praise and understanding. But I suppose no matter how much of that there is, gamers gonna gamer.

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In general it is the case, but unfortunately no matter how generally good a community is, there is always gonna be a fraction of people that are gonna act like immature children

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

It's strange because FFXIV has a reputation for it's fanbase loving it's dev team and giving them a lot of praise and understanding. But I suppose no matter how much of that there is, gamers gonna gamer.

 

[B.K.]

He's also seen more popular players like someone named Xeno (called out in the subreddit thread) who is apparently super toxic towards anyone who doesn't know the mechanics of a raid or trail instantly.

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Xenosys is an asshole. His stream is unwatchable. The sooner they permaban him and Arthas, the better.

It's strange because FFXIV has a reputation for it's fanbase loving it's dev team and giving them a lot of praise and understanding. But I suppose no matter how much of that there is, gamers gonna gamer.

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XIV's fanbase is as toxic as any game. Most people are just smart enough not to say anything publicly and keep it in FC and Discords.

 

[Hasemo]

It's strange because FFXIV has a reputation for it's fanbase loving it's dev team and giving them a lot of praise and understanding. But I suppose no matter how much of that there is, gamers gonna gamer.

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The fanbase in general is very positive, but when you have these numbers there is going to be a ton of terrible people in it anyway.

 

[Lord Vatek]

It's strange because FFXIV has a reputation for it's fanbase loving it's dev team and giving them a lot of praise and understanding. But I suppose no matter how much of that there is, gamers gonna gamer.

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XIV's reputation mostly comes from the casual side who are mostly there for story, music, FCs, and glamour. Fortunately, they make up the majority of the player base.

When you get into the hardcore raiding, it becomes just as toxic as any other MMO.

 

[Feep]

XIV's fanbase is as toxic as any game. Most people are just smart enough not to say anything publicly and keep it in FC and Discords.

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If the fanbase is not toxic in game toward people, then no, it's not as toxic as any game.

 

[Dakkon]

Oh they now listening to non JP players?

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JP players are incredibly toxic, just not in-game to your face.

Japan Twitter is a hell of a thing. Japanese culture is so non-confrontational and apologetic that on anonymous social media the asshole factor is worse than it is over here. It's not uncommon for people to instantly jump to the KYS/suicide type stuff.

 

[Kuosi]

XIV's reputation mostly comes from the casual side who are mostly there for story, music, FCs, and glamour. Fortunately, they make up the majority of the player base.

When you get into the hardcore raiding, it becomes just as toxic as any other MMO.

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If you think raiders are bad, try joining a hunt train

 

[aceface]

These broadcasts mainly seem to be responding to what's going on in Japan and they are intended for the Japanese audience...other than some rightful complaining on how bad the queues were (especially with all the errors) I've seen nothing but praise for the expansion here in NA.

 

[Kyoufu]

I'm curious if this is about DRK too, I've seen some DRK mains get... heated. lol

 

[Izanagi89]

More and more it feels like gamer's default state is just angry. Fanbases are exhausting.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

XIV's reputation mostly comes from the casual side who are mostly there for story, music, FCs, and glamour. Fortunately, they make up the majority of the player base.

When you get into the hardcore raiding, it becomes just as toxic as any other MMO.

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Sounds about right. The entirety of my experience with the game through finishing Endwalker has been universally positive to an almost unnvering degree, but I ignored almost all the 8/24 person content until recently also and have never messed with raiding on release.

I watched a few minutes of one of that Xeno guy's miserable videos and that lines up a lot more with what you expect from gaming than the rest of FF14's super friendly casual vibe.

 

[Aaronrules380]

What is there to be upset about? I don't even understand.


And unfortunately, in Japanese, people tend to jump to "kill yourself" with no ramp up in between.

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yeah, can't read or speak japanese so this is secondhand, but my impression of Japanese internet is that it's super toxic in a way that somehow manages to make western internet communities seem tame.

 

[Hikari]

Yeah, as much as I love FFXIV so much... the community is incredibly toxic and it's not something I enjoy seeing.

 

[Scottoest]

JP players are incredibly toxic, just not in-game to your face.

Japan Twitter is a hell of a thing. Japanese culture is so non-confrontational and apologetic that on anonymous social media the asshole factor is worse than it is over here. It's not uncommon for people to instantly jump to the KYS/suicide type stuff.

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Yeah, I get the feeling this message was intended more for the Japanese audience, who I've heard were a lot more pissed about the Endwalker delay (I assume because of the work culture over there making it hard to get time off?) and the state of the Samurai class right now. It was also said to a Japanese outlet.

And of course, there's dickheads everywhere and with the internet no limit to their reach.

 

[Brat-Sampson]

So sad to hear them getting such flak after putting out ostensibly their best product yet. Also, I don't main DRK and am DEFINITELY not talking about something I know, hence the phrasing as a question, but wasn't it like, the most popular tank in the Savage race?

 

[Aaronrules380]

So sad to hear them getting such flak after putting out ostensibly their best product yet. Also, I don't main DRK and am DEFINITELY not talking about something I know, hence the phrasing as a question, but wasn't it like, the most popular tank in the Savage race?

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DRK has the best dps of the tanks right now when played optimally but most players are casual players focused on content where they really don't need to be playing optimally so the better survival tools the other tanks have seem more appealing, and DRK's new tools were more underwhelming compared to other tanks (though in part it's because they already had TBN)

 

[Arsene no Kiseki]

Based on what im seeing it seems like this is directed primarily at JP users.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Any major changes are probably going to set people off. Every fanbase is full of people who direct their anger toward developers for it.

 

[coolasj19]

I feel like the last time a game head tried to moderate their community with pleas for civility it was Jeff Kaplan and it was a long twisty road for Overwatch before they stopped doing that and implemented in game tools to curb peoples behavior. This seems to not be about in-game behavior though so, hey, good luck to them. Ain't no getting a handle on Twitter.

 

[Synohan]

Surprisingly it doesn't seem a lot of drama came out of the raid tier. It was really...quiet? Compared to Hunt Trains which are now basically the to go to place for drama.

 

[Dougieflesh]

DRK has the best dps of the tanks right now when played optimally but most players are casual players focused on content where they really don't need to be playing optimally so the better survival tools the other tanks have seem more appealing, and DRK's new tools were more underwhelming compared to other tanks (though in part it's because they already had TBN)

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I couldn't imagine how much worse the outrage would be if Dark Knight didn't have the damage placebo. Living Dead, Dark Mind, and Blood Weapon are all terrible and shoulda been changed.

 

[Techno]

If this is about Dark Knight that would make sense lmao.

Some DRK mains have been whiny children, they've gone and ruined the entire Tank section in the official forums. Can't even go there to read anything decent anymore. Not seen toxicity like that since the game came out.

 

[Helix]

He's also seen more popular players like someone named Xeno (called out in the subreddit thread) who is apparently super toxic towards anyone who doesn't know the mechanics of a raid or trail instantly.

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I have heard stories about Xenosys and its so fucking annoying, no one becomes instant experts the moment they start ffs. GTFO with this shitty attitude and yeah I would rather see these players get the boot.

 

[Yuntu]

Yeah, as much as I love FFXIV so much... the community is incredibly toxic and it's not something I enjoy seeing.

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It obviously happens but labeling the entire community as such is a bit much tbh.

 

[The Slothful]

No one deserves that level of harassment but I do find it kind of ironic. XIV is fun game but the community is absolutely not the supportive utopia it pretends to be. In the years I played, I witnessed and reported constant, coordiated, bullying behavior and SE never took these reports seriously. These aren't even just subjective things like stalking either. For instance, one player shouted "Kill yourself, [f-homophobic slur]" and that person is now a mentor or another who I reported for using hard R in party chat is out there running hunt trains. That's just the "clear-cut" type of harassment, less alone all the other stuff.

Ultimately, I stopped playing XIV after a year of continual harassment targeted at me and despite over 100 reports, solid text logs, even twitch video evidence from the offending players themselves, SE did nothing about it. Multiple surveys, hours with customer service, complaints on the forum, lies about supervisors, and it was always "rest assured." I left and then came back to request the in-game restraining order but after they kept me "on-hold" for 12 hours only to ultimately to decline it without reason, I canceled my account entirely. After SE refused to prorate back my subscription fees, I was able to get a significant amount of money back when Sony and my financial institution looked at my evidence and determined SE violated their own TOS so there is that at least. Even so, I still feel victimized across the board and even writing all this kind of brings up a variety of emotions.

SE owns a lot of IPs I love and I do have friends I miss playing with but at the end of the day, it is a business, and I don't need to give my money to businesses who allow that kind of behavior. Again though, my heart goes out to the devs and anyone else targeted by that kind of abusive behavior. Hopefully this situation REALLY wakes them up and they actually clean up the community but that seems doubtful.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

I'm a DRK main and it's all I really play apart from WHM occasionally so didn't really get the hate it was getting as I still enjoy it, bit disappointing that it didn't get anything cool this expansion but oh well.

Anyway last night I decided to try WAR out, haven't played it since I dinged 50 in ARR so I bought the boost to 80 as couldn't be bothered to level it. Yeah now I see why people might be unhappy with DRK, I still haven't capped WAR to 90 yet but already its a god damn beast in dungeons and I'm absolutely steam rolling through stuff with it that I never would have been able to do on DRK.

Anyway no reason to be toxic about it, I'm sure the devs will give DRK some more cool things later on to balance it out a bit more.

 

[Dark Knight]

DRK feels as good as it did in Shadowbringers and... that's a bad thing? People suck. You can have an opinion where you don't like where something in the game is heading but to be toxic about it is just so sad. I'm so tired of people who operate in perpetual petulance mode.

I'm glad Yoshi P said something, and I hope it reaches some of the ears it needs to.

 

[zMiiChy-]

Oh they now listening to non JP players?

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No lol
In a recent interview, Yoshi P himself said he had not heard feedback about Blood Weapon's design

People were complaining about it for the entirety of Shadowbringers FFS


I sincerely doubt this is in any way directed towards NA or European players, given the claim that the staff reads the forum in all languages is an apparent exaggeration - if not an outright lie

 

[Laughing Banana]

I thought the ones that are upset are SMN mains, lol, not Dark Knights. Well, at least more so than Dark Knights.

Know so many SMN mains changed their main because of how extreme the change to SMN is. Heck some say its simpler than Dancer, for crying out loud, lol.

 

[golguin]

I'm assuming this is aimed at JP based on the context. English speaking players aren't exactly communicating with JP developers.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I thought the ones that are upset are SMN mains, lol, not Dark Knights. Well, at least more so than Dark Knights.

Know so many SMN mains changed their main because of how extreme the change to SMN is. Heck some say its simpler than Dancer, for crying out loud, lol.

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Summoner is very repetitive, but I can't be bothered leveling another job at this point.

 

[Saito Hikari]

The JP FFXIV community has... A certain history of this stuff.

A long while ago (as in 5+ years ago), something called the 'Koike Incident' happened. It is generally considered the single incident that caused parsers and other third party tools to be relegated to 'don't ask, don't tell, but the moment you admit in-game that you are using a parser and you're using it to harass someone, you'll be banned immediately' status forever.

Yoshi-P's Official Statement - In-Game Parser

Posted in r/ffxiv by u/BurnedCodex • 209 points and 530 comments

old.reddit.com

"Koike incident"

A female player and celebrity named Miyu Koike, who also happened to be the host for FFXIV's official Nico Nico channel show, had an incident she attempted to recruit 7 other players to play with her (this was broadcasted live at that time).

Abyss of Darkness, a world 3rd Japanese group for Final Coil clear then sneaked into the party (6 of them), streaming themselves through an unofficial channel and then made fun of Koike through slanders, spinning the boss around, and made fun of her DPS performance. Worse, Koike was also sexually harassed when the party disbands.

This prompted the Japanese community to punish the group sending hundreds of naked Roegadyns (Hageruga Matsuri, see below). As a result, these trolls ended up changing their names, servers, deleted their Twitter accounts, issued a non sincere apology through their Nicovideo live broadcast (which further angered the community).

Finally the group ended up a temporary ban given by the lead community representive, Foxclon himself.

The incident did not end in a sweet note however, therefore the group is currently monitored.

---

There was another incident from a little less than 2 years ago involving mass targeted bullying of a single player in JP, which was so vicious that it eventually caught the attention of the English community (and spread to people in the English community openly showing off visual mods on Twitter). And the original target was permabanned, while none of the abusers to anyone's knowledge were ever punished.

Japanese player permabanned after months of harassment for using mods.

Hi everyone, I wanted to bring some awareness and light into a harassment issue that has been going on for months within the JP community between...

old.reddit.com

---

At one point, there was a NA raid group that became the first group to clear Alexander Ultimate (also referred to as TEA), almost an entire week before any other group did. During that week, that group received death threats, most of it seemingly from the JP community, convinced that they had cheated (along with ridiculous rumors that they had been practicing on a private server built by dataminers, of which such accusations severely damaged the datamining community on top of that - and that myth still perpetuates to this day, I saw people still parroting that shit with that group earning another first world clear in the latest raid tier).

It got so bad that it is now commonplace for the devs to go out and congratulate first clear raid groups as soon as they can, as a way of telling everyone that they examined the group's performance and found no wrongdoing.

 

[zMiiChy-]

I thought the ones that are upset are SMN mains, lol, not Dark Knights. Well, at least more so than Dark Knights.

Know so many SMN mains changed their main because of how extreme the change to SMN is. Heck some say its simpler than Dancer, for crying out loud, lol.

Click to shrink...

You can legit use a cookie cutter macro build to play the job for you, missing roughly a single GCD every few minutes

The job currently has the smallest DPS gap between optimal play and adequate play

So it's no surprise a huge portion of people who previously mained the job are were alienated and became vocal

 

[Techno]

The JP FFXIV community has... A certain history of this stuff.

A long while ago (as in 5+ years ago), something called the 'Koike Incident' happened. It is generally considered the single incident that caused parsers and other third party tools to be relegated to 'don't ask, don't tell, but the moment you admit in-game that you are using a parser and you're using it to harass someone, you'll be banned immediately' status forever.

Yoshi-P's Official Statement - In-Game Parser

Posted in r/ffxiv by u/BurnedCodex • 209 points and 530 comments

old.reddit.com

"Koike incident"

A female player and celebrity named Miyu Koike, who also happened to be the host for FFXIV's official Nico Nico channel show, had an incident she attempted to recruit 7 other players to play with her (this was broadcasted live at that time).

Abyss of Darkness, a world 3rd Japanese group for Final Coil clear then sneaked into the party (6 of them), streaming themselves through an unofficial channel and then made fun of Koike through slanders, spinning the boss around, and made fun of her DPS performance. Worse, Koike was also sexually harassed when the party disbands.

This prompted the Japanese community to punish the group sending hundreds of naked Roegadyns (Hageruga Matsuri, see below). As a result, these trolls ended up changing their names, servers, deleted their Twitter accounts, issued a non sincere apology through their Nicovideo live broadcast (which further angered the community).

Finally the group ended up a temporary ban given by the lead community representive, Foxclon himself.

The incident did not end in a sweet note however, therefore the group is currently monitored.

---

There was another incident from a little less than 2 years ago involving mass targeted bullying of a single player in JP, which was so vicious that it eventually caught the attention of the English community (and spread to people in the English community openly showing off visual mods on Twitter). And the original target was permabanned, while none of the abusers to anyone's knowledge were ever punished.

Japanese player permabanned after months of harassment for using mods.

Hi everyone, I wanted to bring some awareness and light into a harassment issue that has been going on for months within the JP community between...

old.reddit.com

---

At one point, there was a NA raid group that became the first group to clear Alexander Ultimate (also referred to as TEA), almost an entire week before any other group did. During that week, that group received death threats, most of it seemingly from the JP community, convinced that they had cheated (along with ridiculous rumors that they had been practicing on a private server built by dataminers, of which such accusations severely damaged the datamining community on top of that - and that myth still perpetuates to this day, I saw people still parroting that shit with that group earning another first world clear in the latest raid tier).

It got so bad that it is now commonplace for the devs to go out and congratulate first clear raid groups as soon as they can, as a way of telling everyone that they examined the group's performance and found no wrongdoing.

Click to shrink...

Damn, that's next level.

 

[Magneto]

The JP FFXIV community has... A certain history of this stuff.

Click to shrink...

But... but i thought that the FFXIV community wasn't toxic at all ?

(Spoiler : it is, just like any "big" community out there. Always funny to see people acting like FFXIV is, for some dumb reason, better than that.)

 

[Astandahl]

If you think raiders are bad, try joining a hunt train

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Majority of hunt trains usually go well without any major drama but sometimes yikes... Between early pulls and reactions from who didn't make in time things get fairly heated.

Overall i'd say the community is good. Dungeons, alliance raids i've rarely seen toxic stuff, even when the group was struggling.

 

[LossAversion]

But... but i thought that the FFXIV community wasn't toxic at all ?

(Spoiler : it is, just like any "big" community out there. Always funny to see people acting like FFXIV is, for some dumb reason, better than that.)

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Most people are probably talking about their experience in the game, rather than the experience of reading twitter or reddit posts about the game.

Not much of an act when 98% of your encounters in the game are friendly. I guess most of the toxic people are too busy ranting on social media to bother with playing the game.

 

[AdvancedWind]

When you get into the hardcore raiding, it becomes just as toxic as any other MMO.

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This is the open secret of FFXIV. If you doubt me, go ahead and join party finder for savage for a week.

Yesterday alone I had multiple stances of people getting shat on for ASKING QUESTIONS in a learning party ("Use your fucking eyes", person replied, when the question made sense because it was talking about the double tether vs single tether on P3 adds) , people going ballistic because someone dared add clarification to an imgur graph they posted (not disagreeing with the strategy, not saying it's "wrong", just adding more information) and other similar stuff.

in fact, you'd be surprised how little the average party wants to just...talk. People would rather wipe 9 minutes in the hardest fights of the game instead of actually talking strategy before pulling, then get salty someone didn't know where to stand in a party spread mechanic when no one talked about it before. They think fitting as many abbreviations on a 200 character limit or mentioning an youtuber's name equals talking strategy and everyone should know exactly what to do, despite having multiple strategies going on for every fight.


I get frustration over other people not learning as fast as you, or not damaging as much as you and so on. I've seen 0,1% wipes because one person didn't use a single damage potion when everyone else was using 2-3. Those get to you. Doesn't mean you should be a dick, and that's not a lesson the average pug party has learned.

There's also the "reverse" asshole experience where people will join parties far ahead of them progression wise and expect everyone to be fine with it. The classic, "I've seen 50% of the mechanics, so I'll join a party that's reaching 5% enrage". That's one of the major reasons for time wasting and salt in pug parties. Had people literally admit they hadn't seen past like 40% joining parties clearly labelled as enrage.

Also I make it a point to not join "farm" parties for extreme trials. That's just guaranteed assholes. I'd rather join random "clear" parties and propose a farm once they get the win, less efficient but significantly less stressful. Not worth it.

 

[Magneto]

XIV's reputation mostly comes from the casual side who are mostly there for story, music, FCs, and glamour. Fortunately, they make up the majority of the player base.

When you get into the hardcore raiding, it becomes just as toxic as any other MMO.

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Yup.

 

[thomasmahler]

I mean, as long as the internet exists and people can just hide behind anonymity (which, don't get me wrong, I think is a good thing all things considered), this kinda stuff will unfortunately always happen and yes, it's really frustrating and can ruin someone's day or motivation quite easily.

While both Ori games thankfully had an amazing critical reception and fans generally love it, there are also always those that didn't enjoy a certain aspect, be it difficulty, the story or just some design decision we made and they'll go to crazy lengths of telling us how useless and terrible we are.

Some people just cannot cope with the fact that every individual has their own way of thinking and doing things and what might appeal to them potentially is the opposite of what appeals to you. That doesn't mean they're terrible human beings or that they should jump off a bridge just because they did something that you didn't approve of.

I doubt there's any developer out there who can live up to the extremely lofty expectations every single one of those 'hardcore fans' has, it's just impossible. And these folks are very passionate, so they will try everything to make sure that their voice is heard, even if their intent is to just voice their concerns in an extremely abusive way.

 

[Yippiekai]

Toxicity exists everywhere or we wouldn't need Ignore buttons.

That said, the number of people on my blacklist tend to be awfully low compared to other MMOs. I see more toxicity on Reddit or Twitter than in game for the most part.

 

[Mendrox]

Surprisingly it doesn't seem a lot of drama came out of the raid tier. It was really...quiet? Compared to Hunt Trains which are now basically the to go to place for drama.

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What do I miss here? I do them daily on Ultros and except for Matt it's fine?