Yoshinori Kitase on number of games in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE series: "We don't know ourselves"

[Cordy]

Why does a remake of a 20 year old game need to compete with modern games? I've never heard of any remake needing to compete with modern games. Seiken Densetsu 3's remake certainly isn't. They've given that game, with its multiple characters and everything, full 3d graphics and everything. It's not competing with modern open world games nor should anyone expect it to. When Tomb Raider was remade, no one expected it to compete with modern games. When Ocarina of Time was remade for 3ds, no one expected it to compete with modern games. The game stood as a classic on its own. The updated some things, and made things better, but ultimately it wasn't competing with modern games and no one saw any reason for it to.

Why are the expectations for this game so out of whack? Why do people want it to compete with modern games? That doesn't mean it should be poverty and have random encounters and no voices but Christ.

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This goes back to the question I asked earlier in this thread. Are some people looking for a new FF7 game that looks, feels, plays and is paced as if it came out today or are they looking for the same old game with prettier graphics?

This game's being treated as if it's a new FF built from the ground up rather than something that's basically a "super remaster" and from the jump when they announced it it was presented at that. They didn't make this game just for those fans who were fans of the originals and they've even said that besides FF7 fans it'll be for fans who have never played the game before. It's not going to be the OG version with a fresh coat of paint. Maybe some people didn't think it would be this but I don't know why that is.

It really sounds like people would rather have essentially what FF8's remaster is rather than what this is. This was clearly not an OoT remaster, like you can't even compare them especially visually. Take these shots for example.

From the OG version

to the PS3 tech demo version

to now

This is something that you cannot compare OoT and OOT3DS to. You can look at the scale here and see that comparing them just doesn't work.

What did yall really think we were getting here? That's the big question. What kind of game did yall think this was going to be?

 

[Space Lion]

This goes back to the question I asked earlier in this thread. Are some people looking for a new FF7 game that looks, feels, plays and is paced as if it came out today or are they looking for the same old game with prettier graphics?

This game's being treated as if it's a new FF built from the ground up rather than something that's basically a "super remaster" and from the jump when they announced it it was presented at that. They didn't make this game just for those fans who were fans of the originals and they've even said that besides FF7 fans it'll be for fans who have never played the game before. It's not going to be the OG version with a fresh coat of paint. Maybe some people didn't think it would be this but I don't know why that is.

It really sounds like people would rather have essentially what FF8's remaster is rather than what this is. This was clearly not an OoT remaster, like you can't even compare them especially visually. Take these shots for example.

From the OG version

to the PS3 tech demo version

to now

This is something that you cannot compare OoT and OOT3DS to. You can look at the scale here and see that comparing them just doesn't work.

What did yall really think we were getting here? That's the big question. What kind of game did yall think this was going to be?

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This comparison is baffling to the point of hilarity. The original is an FMV.

This is at the point where it's too much. I have a friend who is a big Yakuza/RGG fan and he said the stories were starting to get so stretched that they were starting to make stories about how who cuts Kiryu's hair. FFVII remake seems to be like that times a thousand.

Can't wait to see meet Seventh Heaven's landlord. They have gone full on George Lucas/Walter Hill and have become obsessed with their biggest success to the point of choking the life out of it by continously adding more and more and more and more and more. We've already seen this with the Compilation of FFVII, so we know that to be a fact.

Once upon a time, Square were artists. Now they're suits chasing a buck.

It's also convenient you completely ignored my DQVIII/FFXII examples.

 

[Mr. X]

This is wack news. And development is going to be forever between each entry. Kinda not interested in buying this at launch.

 

[CaviarMeths]

People ITT all "lol Square Enix" when pretty much every other team in the company has had no problem whatsoever releasing games on schedule. This is a Kitase problem.

 

[Normal]

If sales disappoint of part 1 then only expect two parts. If they don't, milk the remake as much as you can.

 

[wtd2009]

If sales disappoint of part 1 then only expect two parts. If they don't, milk the remake as much as you can.

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The reviews are going to have to be terrible for part 1 sales to disappoint. I think it's going to hinge on part 2 sales more than anything (assuming they are planning >2 parts).

 

[Black Chamber]

I'll wait for the complete GOTY edition.

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That will be around 2028, given that Kitase said that it will probably take about as long to make each part as it did to make this one and assuming that there will be 3 parts total - that's four years for the next 2 parts each...

Simply wonderful.

 

[Space Lion]

And this is the exact problem with ending the game with escaping Midgar. A bike chase and a fight against a dumb robot is not an endgame climax.

They needed to at least make it to Kalm or Junon and either end it with the doomed fight against Sephiroth in the flashback (less good, since none of your gear or party would carry over) or with the fight against Jenova on the Cargo Ship.

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I think ending the game with them staring at the sunset at the edge of Midgar when the whole Part 1 takes place during night would be a nice touch.

Are you telling you did not find that scene emotional and captivating while this song plays?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf3CJZAAz2g

After all their struggle and turmoil they made it to dawn. This is a nice ending for the part and just like the original would inspire a feeling hope and wander.

I have no idea why you are basing this off of bosses. For Rufus all they have to do is beef up his guards and make him harder. Have the guys in helicopter shoot at you and give him more magic dogs. Bam. Also the epilogue of the Midgar section is incredible. You fight not only Rufus, but there's a big fight in the elevator on the way down with Barret, then you have the motorcyle chase, and the stare into the sunset.

I saw all of this despite being a critic of this remake. Your criticisms seem illogical to me. It's almost like you're complaining just to complain rather than make your criticisms on target.

 

[MistaTwo]

This is what I have worried about for a while. I am worried that taken in total the pace of the narrative is going to be all over the place because they are developing an already complete story without the scope being set.

 

[Cordy]

This comparison is baffling to the point of hilarity. The original is an FMV.

This is at the point where it's too much. I have a friend who is a big Yakuza/RGG fan and he said the stories were starting to get so stretched that they were starting to make stories about how who cuts Kiryu's hair. FFVII remake seems to be like that times a thousand.

Can't wait to see meet Seventh Heaven's landlord. They have gone full on George Lucas/Walter Hill and have become obsessed with their biggest success to the point of choking the life out of it by continously adding more and more and more and more and more. We've already seen this with the Compilation of FFVII, so we know that to be a fact.

Once upon a time, Square were artists. Now they're suits chasing a buck.

It's also convenient you completely ignored my DQVIII/FFXII examples.

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You're missing the point here. The gifs I've linked explains the scale they're going for. What we're seeing in the latest trailer? That's realistic for as big as Midgar's been said to be. What was in the OG version just isn't realistic at all but regardless the point I'm making is that the scale of just that one scene shows they're completely rebuilding this game rather than making the OG version with a fresh coat of paint. If people somehow thought this would be that then they weren't paying attention to the SE interviews they did when this game was announced where they straight up said it. You're straight up saying "they used to be artists" right now to defend your point here, that's not going to work.

Here's a few quotes from when they announced this game years ago which explains why they're making it this big compared to what you wanted.

When the remake was first announced, there was some confusion among fans about its multi-part format. Is comparing it to the Final Fantasy XIII saga fair in that regard? Will each entry have that kind of scope?
It will essentially be a full-scale game for each part of the multi-part series. In XIII, each installment told the story from a different angle. It was kind of like approaching an unknown territory, in a sense. Whereas with Final Fantasy VII Remake, we already have a preexisting story, so it wouldn't really make sense if that isn't encompassed in the multi-part series, and it wouldn't make sense to remake it if we don't encompass that that entire story.

With regards to the current HD capacity and volume, the idea is that we wouldn't be able to encompass it all in just one installment. So, if we're just looking at each of these parts, one part should be on par with the scale of one Final Fantasy XIII game.

The Compilation of Final Fantasy VII added new wrinkles to the story and lore behind the game. How is the team approaching the integration of those new elements into the remake?
It's not to say that all or some of the characters from the spin-offs or other Compilation works will appear in the remake, but if there are any areas where we can use the settings or the characters, we do want to try to incorporate it in there, so it gives off that sense of nuance and those other stories existing.

So, there isn't any pressure to include every character and storyline from the Compilation content?
Yes, there may be instances where the characters appear themselves, or are just referenced in dialogue. But, of course, it would be difficult to follow up on everything that happened in this universe. So, maybe some of the characters who weren't as famous won't appear or be mentioned. But in terms of the characters and instances that remain in the memories of our fans, we do want to try our best to integrate that in some fashion in the world.

Some fans seem to want a remake that is mainly visual upgrades, with none of the story or gameplay altered. Was that ever considered for the project?
The starting point was – and our executive producer [Shinji] Hashimoto-san has mentioned this – it would even be okay if we just upped the graphics to the quality of Advent Children. But, in terms of game styles and battle systems, it's been 20 years since the original, and a lot has changed. Trends have changed, and I believed that we needed to revisit and rethink that aspect for the remake.

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"One of the main reasons Square Enix hasn't remade Final Fantasy VII up until now is because its a massive undertaking to construct it from the ground up with current technology, according to Kitase. A proper HD remake that maintains the same feeling of density of the original wouldn't fit into a single installment. Nomura adds that in the case of a single installment, content would have to be cut and the result would be a condensed version of the game. But with this method, players will be able to explore many different areas of Midgar that they couldn't access in the original. While parts may also be cut from the original, Nomura promises that overall, the amount of content is only going to increase."

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Finally as for your DQ/XII examples, man you weren't talking to me that was someone else lol. But regardless the graphics on this game blows those games out of the water so you combine that with what they're doing with the scale and scope of this? It makes sense complete sense.

I think the issue is that you're thinking they're more focused on taking people's money in regards to the game quality rather than you understanding the scale they're trying to aim for this. I mean the scale of this game looks to be far larger than FFXV and we saw how big that game was and most of that was empty landscapes rather than towers and such. Let alone from a story standpoint? FFVII is just far more dense.

As a creator myself I've been in similar situations where I said I'd do something sooner but due to the scale and scope I've had to change that and it ended up being far greater than expected. I feel them regarding this.

 

[Officer.Sanchez]

Why? The whole point is the slums are slums. Aerith's house is like this because she's...exceptional and special. It makes her character stand out and makes her home (as well as the church she visits) feel like a place away from hell. As they say,"flowers don't grow in Midgar." This is what made them so special. And you want variety? Um. Why exactly? How does that enhance the story in any way?

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I was responding to Planetsmasher's post. I couldn't care less about variety in Midgar. I know there's enough of it outside the city.

 

[Space Lion]

You're missing the point here. The gifs I've linked explains the scale they're going for. What we're seeing in the latest trailer? That's realistic for as big as Midgar's been said to be. What was in the OG version just isn't realistic at all but regardless the point I'm making is that the scale of just that one scene shows they're completely rebuilding this game rather than making the OG version with a fresh coat of paint. If people somehow thought this would be that then they weren't paying attention to the SE interviews they did when this game was announced where they straight up said it. You're straight up saying "they used to be artists" right now to defend your point here, that's not going to work.

Here's a few quotes from when they announced this game years ago which explains why they're making it this big compared to what you wanted.




Finally as for your DQ/XII examples, man you weren't talking to me that was someone else lol. But regardless the graphics on this game blows those games out of the water so you combine that with what they're doing with the scale and scope of this? It makes sense complete sense.

I think the issue is that you're thinking they're more focused on taking people's money in regards to the game quality rather than you understanding the scale they're trying to aim for this. I mean the scale of this game looks to be far larger than FFXV and we saw how big that game was and most of that was empty landscapes rather than towers and such. Let alone from a story standpoint? FFVII is just far more dense.

As a creator myself I've been in similar situations where I said I'd do something but due to the scale and scope I've had to change that and it ended up being far greater than expected. I feel them regarding this.

Click to shrink...

I understand your point fully.

But my question is: why does it need to be this scale? I don't need all this. I liked that you didn't get to see all of Midgar. Include a little bit more because that'd be cool but does it really need the extra scale? Nah.

And in any case, again. DQVIII and FFXII have MASSIVE cities and towns.

As for graphics, why does FFVII need modern mainline FF graphics? Much less modern graphics? I mean, FFIV is one of the most popular FF of all time and it ain't getting all that. I'm not saying it needs blocky shit, but why aren't ps2 FFXII esque models satisfactory?

Shit looks fine to me.

Again, what does the game need? That's far different than what you want. Because this goes outside the definition of need when a remake of a single game is split into parts. Far beyond. That's Hobbit shit. That's greed showing. That, and being a fucking hack.

Because let's be real, if FFVIIR looked like this folks would still lose their damn minds.

 

[Haribo]

Probably be done around 2030. Seems so far away, but it'll be here soon enough.

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lmaoo, y'all are something else

 

[ShiftyHermit]

I wonder how you possibly could make part 1 feel 'mostly stand alone' so much of Midgar is setting up the mystery of why Sephiroth has returned and why Cloud left Soldier. Characters like Rufus show up in a climactic moments and there's no time to develop him. And for example you risk ruining the sense of mystery revealing more backstories in part 1.

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I was mostly thinking on the lines of the amount of content would be enough for a standalone game. I know it will be difficult but there was plenty of stuff in Midgar that could have been greatly expanded story wise.

The eco-terrorist angle (in the original game you are just thrust into 1 mission with the gang).

The slums (pretty fun/funny parts that were over quickly, not to mention the slums 'boss')

Aeris being pursued by agents.

The whole Shinra part. In the original game they tried to impart this sense of desperation for the people of the slums but everything was over too quickly to really get things on an emotional level.

I think storytelling in games has come a very long way and there is so much canvas to work with regarding Midgar to tell an engaging, emotional, and dramatic story.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

What if they surprise us and it's all in one game? Deeply optimistic thinking...

 

[Cordy]

I understand your point fully.

But my question is: why does it need to be this scale? I don't need all this. I liked that you didn't get to see all of Midgar. Include a little bit more because that'd be cool but does it really need the extra scale? Nah.

And in any case, again. DQVIII and FFXII have MASSIVE cities and towns.

As for graphics, why does FFVII need modern mainline FF graphics? Much less modern graphics? I mean, FFIV is one of the most popular FF of all time and it ain't getting all that. I'm not saying it needs blocky shit, but why aren't ps2 FFXII esque models satisfactory?

Shit looks fine to me.

Again, what does the game need? That's far different than what you want. Because this goes outside the definition of need when a remake of a single game is split into parts. Far beyond. That's Hobbit shit. That's greed showing. That, and being a fucking hack.

Click to shrink...

Bruh.

It's their series and they wanted to do it. It's the same reason as why every other company who makes a game wants to do something with their own games. You're basically asking why does Nintendo keep making different Zeldas right now rather than sticking to a formula. It's their vision as a company who holds property rights. It's not yours as a consumer. They straight up said in one of the quotes that they believed they had to rethink and revisit what this game would be rather than having upgraded graphics hence why it is what it is. It's what they wanted to.

That's a basic answer man. You're basically asking "why does Phil want to make a sequel to a book he's created?" right now.

 

[Space Lion]

I think it was one Square Enix staff member who said that the company was plagued with an obsession in graphics to the point of toxicity. This game more than any represents that more than any other title they've worked with.

Again.

What does the game need?

Because anyone with eyes and a brain would consider ps2 graphics for FFVIIR quite a step up and quite honestly all it needs. Why does it need modern graphics? Please tell me.

For the record, here's SE games from the ps2:

If they had lowered their standards and went with lower poly characters and small scope they could have easily fit this on to one game.

But nah.

Gotta be extra.

This company honestly deserves bankruptcy.

 

[Space Lion]

Bruh.

It's their series and they wanted to do it. It's the same reason as why every other company who makes a game wants to do something with their own games. You're basically asking why does Nintendo keep making different Zeldas right now rather than sticking to a formula. It's their vision as a company who holds property rights. It's not yours as a consumer. They straight up said in one of the quotes that they believed they had to rethink and revisit what this game would be rather than having upgraded graphics hence why it is what it is. It's what they wanted to.

That's a basic answer man. You're basically asking "why does Phil want to make a sequel to a book he's created?" right now.

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Sorry but art doesn't work out that way. The foundation of good art is criticism and they've earned it, ten fold. Never mind that "they created and they say what goes" is among one of the laziest fan defenses out there.

 

[FantasticTrout]

I think it was one Square Enix staff member who said that the company was plagued with an obsession in graphics to the point of toxicity. This game more than any represents that more than any other title they've worked with.

Again.

What does the game need?

Because anyone with eyes and a brain would consider ps2 graphics for FFVIIR quite a step up and quite honestly all it needs. Why does it need modern graphics? Please tell me.

For the record, here's SE games from the ps2:

If they had lowered their standards and went with lower poly characters and small scope they could have easily fit this on to one game.

But nah.

Gotta be extra.

This company honestly deserves bankruptcy.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand how it's a negative thing to push for the best.

As long as nothing gets cut and they recreate everything from FF7 world and improve on the things that needs improving I'm all for it.

I guess the only problem I have with it is the time they spend on it, this game should have had all resources and workers spent on it at SE so they could get this out faster though. Not fun waiting 4 years for part 2 and 3-4 years for part 3

 

[Deleted member 4093]

lmaoo, y'all are something else

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Well it comes out in 2020. Say they need to make 3-4 games that could honestly take until 2026-2028. 2030 is not far off.

 

[NineConsonants]

The natural division makes for a 3-game series, and I think we all know where game # 2 is going to end.

 

[Space Lion]

I don't understand how it's a negative thing to push for the best.

As long as nothing gets cut and they recreate everything from FF7 world and improve on the things that needs improving I'm all for it.

I guess the only problem I have with it is the time they spend on it, this game should have had all resources and workers spent on it at SE so they could get this out faster though. Not fun waiting 4 years for part 2 and 3-4 years for part 3

Click to shrink...

It's a remake. It doesn't need the best. Push the best on FFXVI. Going this far for a remake is baffling to me. "It needs the best" is exactly how we are in this predicament. It's why Versus never made it to market. Because Nomura is an obsessive compulsive perfectionist. We still don't have FFXVI in sight. The best? Nah, it just needs to be good.

I still don't understand why they don't just use super high detailed pre-rendered bgs like REmake. That games graphics were insane and FFVII Remakes probably wouldn't be far off. Instead, they had the desire to make it what it isn't, and shoot for the top. Shooting for the top, with a remake of a twenty year old game.

 

[Cordy]

Sorry but art doesn't work out that way. The foundation of good art is criticism and they've earned it, ten fold. Never mind that "they created and they say what goes" is among one of the laziest fan defenses out there.

Click to shrink...

There's a difference between criticism and you saying "why does it need to be this scale? I don't need all this", "why does FFVII need modern mainline FF graphics? Much less modern graphics?", "but why aren't ps2 FFXII esque models satisfactory?" and "again, what does the game need? That's far different than what you want "when it comes to this game because at that point you're assuming that your individual opinion is exactly what they need to listen to rather than everyone's opinion as a whole. It doesn't work that way. Let alone if you see the responses, reactions, everything as a whole this week the majority has been positive regardless if you're against it or not. Your opinion is the minority opinion here.

It doesn't matter how much you criticize this because at the end of the day you can't, I can't stress this enough, act like your opinion is the central opinion compared to everyone else's regardless if people are for it or not. That's your opinion but you're not factoring everyone else's opinion. At the end of the day owners of property can do whatever they want to do towards what they have and that's just what it is.

FFVII was the best game in the industry when it dropped so now they're doing it for a new generation. You saying "I don't need this", "it doesn't need to be the best", "I'm ok with everything else" just isn't what they nor what most fans of this game want right now.

 

[hidys]

The natural division makes for a 3-game series, and I think we all know where game # 2 is going to end.

Click to shrink...

I always assumed they would take this approach.

 

[RaiOh]

See you in 10+ years.

Spoiler

Yes, add 10 years to your current age ~

 

[The Unsent]

I think ending the game with them staring at the sunset at the edge of Midgar when the whole Part 1 takes place during night would be a nice touch.

Are you telling you did not find that scene emotional and captivating while this song plays?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf3CJZAAz2g

After all their struggle and turmoil they made it to dawn. This is a nice ending for the part and just like the original would inspire a feeling hope and wander.

I have no idea why you are basing this off of bosses. For Rufus all they have to do is beef up his guards and make him harder. Have the guys in helicopter shoot at you and give him more magic dogs. Bam. Also the epilogue of the Midgar section is incredible. You fight not only Rufus, but there's a big fight in the elevator on the way down with Barret, then you have the motorcyle chase, and the stare into the sunset.

I saw all of this despite being a critic of this remake. Your criticisms seem illogical to me. It's almost like you're complaining just to complain rather than make your criticisms on target.

Click to shrink...

I think they might change the high way scene so some of the turks are chasing you on bikes, and Rufus is controlling the motorball so it's more climactic.

Maybe then it flips to Elmyra reading a book to Marlene and a touching monologue is read, and a montage, we see children putting Aeris' flowers on the way to sector 7 or (minor characters who helped you), and switch to the party walking to leave midgar.

 

[Space Lion]

There's a difference between criticism and you saying "why does it need to be this scale? I don't need all this", "why does FFVII need modern mainline FF graphics? Much less modern graphics?", "but why aren't ps2 FFXII esque models satisfactory?" and "again, what does the game need? That's far different than what you want "when it comes to this game because at that point you're assuming that your individual opinion is exactly what they need to listen to rather than everyone's opinion as a whole. It doesn't work that way. Let alone if you see the responses, reactions, everything as a whole this week the majority has been positive regardless if you're against it or not. Your opinion is the minority opinion here.

It doesn't matter how much you criticize this because at the end of the day you can't, I can't stress this enough, act like your opinion is the central opinion compared to everyone else's regardless if people are for it or not. That's your opinion but you're not factoring everyone else's opinion. At the end of the day owners of property can do whatever they want to do towards what they have and that's just what it is.

FFVII was the best game in the industry when it dropped so now they're doing it for a new generation. You saying "I don't need this", "it doesn't need to be the best", "I'm ok with everything else" just isn't what they nor what most fans of this game want right now.

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I don't think anything I've said is wrong.

SE have poor management and a toxic business structure that emphasizes graphics over quality. And no, splitting a 20 year old game into multiple parts isn't quality.

There's nothing that can change my mind that this project is a massive mistake.

Good talk tho.

 

[Cordy]

I don't think anything I've said is wrong.

SE have poor management and a toxic business structure that emphasizes graphics over quality. And no, splitting a 20 year old game into multiple parts isn't quality.

There's nothing that can change my mind that this project is a massive mistake.

Good talk tho.

Click to shrink...

Np man I'm always cool with talking to people without anyone throwing any insults out here lol. This is how good discussions are had!

 

[Dogui]

One game. Far more content than FFVII, made on the PS2. BTW, has a larger world than the recently released DQXI as well, which has a tube world map.

Also...

One game, released in 2006.

Never mind the amount of Tales games, Xenoblade games.

Nomura and SE simply have over budgeted and have too high expectations for this remake. It doesn't need all of this.

The excuses for this project are beyond pathetic.

Click to shrink...

Did you even read the post to use FFXII as an example? Lol You can't even explore the empire that was fighting with Archades, same with most of Ivalice. It was the first FF game to have bigger areas and also the first to bring just a little piece of the world map. I wonder why : V

Tales of games are always one gen behind in terms of production values for a reason, not mentioning that atleast Vesperia (on fucking PS3/360) still had a miniature world lmao. Berseria didn't but then there wasn't a world map at all.

Xenoblade games are a lot more impressive than the previous examples but still can't compare with the scope of a full scaled FFVII. Most of the world in Xenoblades games are wildlife with huges spaces of similar assets instead of dense urban places, also one gen behind graphically due to Nintendo exclusivity.

Then there's Dragon Quest, that series that always recycle 80% of the ost and npcs design while most of the dungeons consists in caverns or castle/towers. I just replied a post using DQXI as argument btw.

I have zero interest in defending the complete package of FFVIIR, and there's clearly a fair chance that SE will fuck up eventually. My point is that FFVII in a nowadays AAA scale to be delivered in just one game is completely impossible and it's no rocket science to figure out why.

I mean, i'm a fan of Xenoblade games, the first one is like one of my 5 favorite games ever. I finished DQVIII, FFXII and a fair share of modern Tales games already. I know how these games works lol

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I think ending the game with them staring at the sunset at the edge of Midgar when the whole Part 1 takes place during night would be a nice touch.

Are you telling you did not find that scene emotional and captivating while this song plays?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf3CJZAAz2g

After all their struggle and turmoil they made it to dawn. This is a nice ending for the part and just like the original would inspire a feeling hope and wander.

I have no idea why you are basing this off of bosses. For Rufus all they have to do is beef up his guards and make him harder. Have the guys in helicopter shoot at you and give him more magic dogs. Bam. Also the epilogue of the Midgar section is incredible. You fight not only Rufus, but there's a big fight in the elevator on the way down with Barret, then you have the motorcyle chase, and the stare into the sunset.

I saw all of this despite being a critic of this remake. Your criticisms seem illogical to me. It's almost like you're complaining just to complain rather than make your criticisms on target.

Click to shrink...

The problem is just that after all that noise all they did was make it to the end of the prologue. And in the Rufus fight's case, Rufus doesn't even care that much about fighting you. He's basically fucking around and he leaves when he gets bored. That's not some kind of big climactic moment, it's basically just an introduction to the kind of person Rufus is.

Then you fight a robot, and then it's the motorcycle chase, then you fight another robot. It's just a terrible way to close out a video game, a bunch of completely unemotional fights against opponents that are either uninterested in you or lack the capacity to be invested in the situation at hand. Neither of them are even symbolic of any of the core themes of the story, they're just regular robots.

If they want the game to have an actually satisfying conclusion, the endgame has to actually pay off ONE of the themes of the story.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Lol they're never gonna finish this

 

[munchie64]

People are going to be paying $180 minimum for this shit. Congrats.

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Why yes, I will be paying the price of multiple games for multiple games.

 

[Space Lion]

Did you even read the post to use FFXII as an example? Lol You can't even explore the empire that was fighting with Archades, same with most of Ivalice. It was the first FF game to have bigger areas and also the first to bring just a little piece of the world map. I wonder why : V

Tales of games are always one gen behind in terms of production values for a reason, not mentioning that atleast Vesperia (on fucking PS3/360) still had a miniature world lmao. Berseria didn't but then there wasn't a world map at all.

Xenoblade games are a lot more impressive than the previous examples but still can't compare with the scope of a full scaled FFVII. Most of the world in Xenoblades games are wildlife with huges spaces of similar assets instead of dense urban places, also one gen behind graphically due to Nintendo exclusivity.

Then there's Dragon Quest, that series that always recycle 80% of the ost and npcs design while most of the dungeons consists in caverns or castle/towers. I just replied a post using DQXI as argument btw.

I have zero interest in defending the complete package of FFVIIR, and there's clearly a fair chance that SE will fuck up eventually. My point is that FFVII in a nowadays AAA scale to be delivered in just one game is completely impossible and it's no rocket science to figure out why.

I mean, i'm a fan of Xenoblade games, the first one is like one of my 5 favorite games ever. I finished DQVIII, FFXII and a fair share of modern Tales games already. I know how these games works lol

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DQ doesn't recycle NPC's. They're the same NPC designs. You mention "recycling npcs and music" while ignoring that what we're talking about is your original claim: that rpgs with the scope of ps1 jrpgs are impossible. Your claim was thoroughly beaten and proven wrong. You are now using non-gameplay elements as an argument.

Nothing you've said still doesn't change the fact that FFXII has a far bigger world than FFVII. Nor does it change the nature of the fact that DQVIII has a massive world, a full scale world map, and this.

https://youtu.be/06nZpT066RI?t=416

Timestamp 6:56

The problem is just that after all that noise all they did was make it to the end of the prologue. And in the Rufus fight's case, Rufus doesn't even care that much about fighting you. He's basically fucking around and he leaves when he gets bored. That's not some kind of big climactic moment, it's basically just an introduction to the kind of person Rufus is.

Then you fight a robot, and then it's the motorcycle chase, then you fight another robot. It's just a terrible way to close out a video game, a bunch of completely unemotional fights against opponents that are either uninterested in you or lack the capacity to be invested in the situation at hand. Neither of them are even symbolic of any of the core themes of the story, they're just regular robots.

If they want the game to have an actually satisfying conclusion, the endgame has to actually pay off ONE of the themes of the story.

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It's a remake. Make the fight with Rufus emotional then.

 

[Khanimus]

Why yes, I will be paying the price of multiple games for multiple games.

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Square not knowing how to manage their shit doesn't validate stretching this out and milking their consumers.

Yeah, someone is gonna pay for this shit. Doesn't mean its a good look.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

I think it was one Square Enix staff member who said that the company was plagued with an obsession in graphics to the point of toxicity. This game more than any represents that more than any other title they've worked with.

Again.

What does the game need?

Because anyone with eyes and a brain would consider ps2 graphics for FFVIIR quite a step up and quite honestly all it needs. Why does it need modern graphics? Please tell me.

For the record, here's SE games from the ps2:

If they had lowered their standards and went with lower poly characters and small scope they could have easily fit this on to one game.

But nah.

Gotta be extra.

This company honestly deserves bankruptcy.

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Good luck seeing SE going bankrupt my boy, when they're only behind Bandai Namco in Japan by revenue and profit. And that only counting their video game business. lol

 

[PlanetSmasher]

It's a remake. Make the fight with Rufus emotional then.

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That's not the kind of person Rufus is. It's also not the kind of person Cloud is. Neither of these two people know each other and they don't CARE about each other. It's the introduction to a character, not a dramatic climax to an arc. It's the game going "meet Rufus! he's kind of a dick!"

 

[FantasticTrout]

It's a remake. It doesn't need the best. Push the best on FFXVI. Going this far for a remake is baffling to me. "It needs the best" is exactly how we are in this predicament. It's why Versus never made it to market. Because Nomura is an obsessive compulsive perfectionist. We still don't have FFXVI in sight. The best? Nah, it just needs to be good.

I still don't understand why they don't just use super high detailed pre-rendered bgs like REmake. That games graphics were insane and FFVII Remakes probably wouldn't be far off. Instead, they had the desire to make it what it isn't, and shoot for the top. Shooting for the top, with a remake of a twenty year old game.

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Well SE knows that FF7 is the most popular RPG they ever created and are now treating it as such.
This is no longer just a "Remake" its getting the treatment of a new "mainline" ff game.

This is amazing and FF7 will break every record for SE.

My only concern is that they will cut shit out, if they don't do that then I'm all for this crazy large remake project.
If they cut and remove stuff like open world map exploration, then I'll be pissed and this scale was a mistake.

Time will tell. But always aim for the best or don't bother imo.

 

[Space Lion]

That's not the kind of person Rufus is. It's also not the kind of person Cloud is. Neither of these two people know each other and they don't CARE about each other. It's the introduction to a character, not a dramatic climax to an arc. It's the game going "meet Rufus! he's kind of a dick!"

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Rufus is a tyrant. When you first meet him says his father was too soft and that he will rule by fear rather than money and influence. Rufus has your party executed in lavish fashion to blame Avalanche for the weapons and meteor. He's a piece of shit. They should come up with something.

 

[munchie64]

Square not knowing how to manage their shit doesn't validate stretching this out and milking their consumers.

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This has nothing to do with the value of the individual games though. The entire release window is probably gonna be terrible but getting the next one is no different than getting a standard sequel. As such, your original statement could be applied to any series of games.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

That's not the kind of person Rufus is. It's also not the kind of person Cloud is. Neither of these two people know each other and they don't CARE about each other. It's the introduction to a character, not a dramatic climax to an arc. It's the game going "meet Rufus! he's kind of a dick!"

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You're tying yourself to the old narrative too much if you can't think of a way the narrative can't build to where Cloud hates Rufus enough to fight him in a way that's "emotional".

Untether yourself from expectation. The game is going to build completely differently and have different narrative seeds planted all over the place. The original VII is merely an outline.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Sounds like a dodge. There's no way they don't know.

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this.

 

[The Unsent]

The natural division makes for a 3-game series, and I think we all know where game # 2 is going to end.

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If Golder Saucer (plus Corel towns around it) and Junon are as massive as they look too, then the iconic scene might be in the middle of episode 3 or 4.

Spoiler

Sephiroth stealing the black Materia and Aeris saying good bye in the sleeping forest [\Spoiler] could work as a touching ending too. Another ending could be

Spoiler

Cloud enjoying a date with Aeris or whoever in the golden saucer and the fireworks in the sky

Episode 3's ending I can imagine being

Spoiler

Like fucking horrible Infinity war, Hojo/Sephiroth wins, Cloud falls into the lifesteam, the team is captured, final shot is the weapons flying around with a meteor in the sky.

which sets up the third act in the most dramactic way possible.

 

[GamerJM]

I think it was one Square Enix staff member who said that the company was plagued with an obsession in graphics to the point of toxicity. This game more than any represents that more than any other title they've worked with.

Again.

What does the game need?

Because anyone with eyes and a brain would consider ps2 graphics for FFVIIR quite a step up and quite honestly all it needs. Why does it need modern graphics? Please tell me.

For the record, here's SE games from the ps2:

If they had lowered their standards and went with lower poly characters and small scope they could have easily fit this on to one game.

But nah.

Gotta be extra.

This company honestly deserves bankruptcy.

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I don't necessarily disagree with you here but come on dude, you have to be realistic. Think back to the E3 2015 announcement, FF7 Remake was something fans had hyped up for like a decade at that point. If they came out and announced a budget looking game with high res PS2 models people would be pissed. I'd be down for it but it would not be a good look.

 

[DeSolos]

This has nothing to do with the value of the individual games though. The entire release window is probably gonna be terrible but getting the next one is no different than getting a standard sequel. As such, your original statement could be applied to any series of games.

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Name one modern game with the same scope as FF7, but delivered at the production value of a modern game.

The closest I can come up with is RDR2. Which even Rockstar took 7 years and a lot of crunch to make. And that game doesn't come close to delivering on the towns FF7 has. Witcher 3 is another contender, but again, tiny towns, and also not that many set pieces.

Older games could do a lot more. So since no one can do what old FF7 did to modern standards in one game, something's gotta give. Either you cut back on scope, production values, or release it in pieces.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

You're tying yourself to the old narrative too much if you can't think of a way the narrative can't build to where Cloud hates Rufus enough to fight him in a way that's "emotional".

Untether yourself from expectation. The game is going to build completely differently and have different narrative seeds planted all over the place. The original VII is merely an outline.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it's possible for Cloud to be invested in anything that much that early in the story. He really doesn't want to be involved in anything and just kind of keeps getting roped into coming along for things except when Aeris gets kidnapped. It's only after they leave Midgar to track down Seph that he starts actually giving a shit about anything.

Like, that's his character. You can build up events and the like but Cloud's character is defined by "I don't want to get involved" for pretty much the entire prologue. If you somehow make him personally emotionally invested in killing this guy he hasn't even met before it kind of weakens his later character growth.

Barret has a believable reason to be emotionally invested in killing Rufus, but it really doesn't make sense to give Cloud one when he's still at the point in the story where he doesn't care. And they can't really change that without changing the essence of who he is. It's only when the Sephiroth hunt begins that he actually starts getting invested in things.

 

[Canas Renvall]

What did yall really think we were getting here? That's the big question. What kind of game did yall think this was going to be?

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A complete game that won't end up costing $180+, for starters.

 

[CortexVortex]

A complete game that won't end up costing $180+, for starters.

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It's a complete game.

 

[munchie64]

Name one modern game with the same scope as FF7, but delivered at the production value of a modern game.

The closest I can come up with is RDR2. Which even Rockstar took 7 years and a lot of crunch to make. And that game doesn't come close to delivering on the towns FF7 has. Witcher 3 is another contender, but again, tiny towns, and also not that many set pieces.

Older games could do a lot more. So since no one can do what old FF7 did to modern standards in one game, something's gotta give. Either you cut back on scope, production values, or release it in pieces.

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Exactly. And if each of these are full games, I have no issue treating them as such in deciding to purchase/deciding their quality afterwards.

 

[Space Lion]

I don't necessarily disagree with you here but come on dude, you have to be realistic. Think back to the E3 2015 announcement, FF7 Remake was something fans had hyped up for like a decade at that point. If they came out and announced a budget looking game with high res PS2 models people would be pissed. I'd be down for it but it would not be a good look.

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Again this is on Square. TBH, they should have remade FFVII during the ps2 days. Remakes of ps1 games were en vogue then already, with REmake and MGS: Twin Snakes happening. Then they let this build up for a decade till peoples expectations were beyond ridiculous. I also don't get the big deal. Mana 3 was revealed today and it didn't look like it got the red carpet treatment and its built up a lot of hype. Why are SE so attached to this game? Compilation of FFVII, now needing to go all out for a remake. It's preposterous to me. Even Dragon Quest, isn't like that and it's massive in Japan. When they remake, they upgrade the graphics and just make it better, but why the need for the pagaentry? Why the need for the over ambition? Why the need for the bloated expectations?

It's quite ridiculous and nothing can convince me that if FFVII remake were revealed, looked like FFXII, and released by now, it would be considered a modern classic.

 

[Cordy]

A complete game that won't end up costing $180+, for starters.

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It's a complete game tho. The story doesn't override the graphics, scope, density and gameplay.