People were PISSED that there was a chance that a 3rd person fighting game with motion controlls took over a 5 year old fighting game
So how did you qualify at last evo ?
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Yoshinori Ono (Capcom) talks about the limited audience of fighting games, what MvC's ambitions were
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
People were PISSED that there was a chance that a 3rd person fighting game with motion controlls took over a 5 year old fighting game
So how did you qualify at last evo ?
I feel like a large publisher is going to have to take a gamble with the genre for it see any more growth (Hi, Riot Games!). The current Japanese stable of veteran devs/pubs don't seem to have the money and overall resources necessary to Research and Develop any substantial means of appealing to a casual crowd (Capcom, ASW, etc.). It's not going to be through sloppily implemented Story Modes and Arcade Mode is a mere appeasement and wastrel effort. Story Mode FG market is cornered by Warner Bros/Netherealms because they have the war chest necessary for the effort. These xeroxes from poorer publishers just look like lazy efforts in comparison. So stop trying it.
I've always expected to see something like a Tekken Force mode in more modern games. Done well, it would be a great way to entertain casual players and help them learn the games. But implementing something like that in the modern era proper would be expensive. If they can't go that route, I'd rather FG pubs accept the shrinking market and just focus on the core audience. Just make more FGs with tighter budgets and smaller teams that don't have to succumb to the pressures of content and character bloat brought on by the AAA standards. Release digitally. DLC accordingly. Maybe something will penetrate the critical mass and you'll get lucky.
I've always expected to see something like a Tekken Force mode in more modern games. Done well, it would be a great way to entertain casual players and help them learn the games. But implementing something like that in the modern era proper would be expensive. If they can't go that route, I'd rather FG pubs accept the shrinking market and just focus on the core audience. Just make more FGs with tighter budgets and smaller teams that don't have to succumb to the pressures of content and character bloat brought on by the AAA standards. Release digitally. DLC accordingly. Maybe something will penetrate the critical mass and you'll get lucky.
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Clearly their strategy for opening up both Street Fighter and Marvel did not work. Back to the drawing board for Capcom. Again.
Yeah, I feel like "art execution" would be a better term. Even if Marvel did indeed tell Capcom "go more realistic", you can still have realistic look good (as shown by Injustice 2).
You say Smash Bros, but I can simply respond by showing how Smash is constantly berated. Literally nothing else needs to be said to get my point across.
Don't even get me started on ARMS
The issue is definitely with Capcom specifically. Neatherrealm has seen amazing success with MK and Injustice this gen, and last. Same with Namco and Tekken 7, Nintendo with Smash, Pokken Tournament and ARMS. DBZ Fighterz has crazy buzz.
Fighting games are big right now. Capcom is the only company struggling. Smart people are obviously just rejecting their bullshit.
Fighting games are big right now. Capcom is the only company struggling. Smart people are obviously just rejecting their bullshit.
This. Just this. Make the game fun as you advance. KI has forgotten a good SP mode, SFV did too, MvCI has implemented it in a bad way. Listen to your fans!
Casual consumers are rejecting them.
"Smart" has nothing to do with it. They can make games targeting casual audiences like NRS does (at the expense of the games competitive side) or they can make games on the proper-model for their core audience.
Until now, they've tried for the best of both worlds and pleased nobody.
Just give the casual audience their story modes and SP content.. for the love of god do not dumb down the gameplay (I'm looking at you sfv)
I'm pretty sure they spend way more money on presentation and visual quality on top of having a full suite of complimentary gameplay modes than anyone else does. They can literally have it all. Most everyone else seems to have to pick and or choose something to focus on while giving up something else.
Smash is constantly berated for various reasons. Mostly for historically changing rules for every tournament and constantly pushing for Melee in the most toxic ways possible. Just about every person in the community is fine with Smash, and no kappa does not represent the community as a whole.
Hell, just about everyone has spoken up in favor of the Smashbox to keep older players' hands from crippling due to the rigors of the Gamecube controller. The only ones against it are Smashers themselves.
Well, it seems that they'll continue the support for Infinite. Now that the ban is being less harsh, we need some X-Men and highly requested Capcom characters.
ASW doesn't with BB/GG. Tutorials, story modes, other single player modes, in-game currency to buy stuff like colors and art with.
Can't imagine those games have anywhere near the budget Capcom fighters do. I could be totally wrong, though.
And almost everyone outside the community is berating the game and it's fans for not being an actual fighting game.
And that's the problem. Casuals see this posted on the internet and assume it's the community when in reality it's mostly online warriors and stream monsters who never go to any events.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Street Fighter does not, by any means, have the most intricate 2d fighting systems, but it's the most popular by far. I think it has to do with branding and ease of accessibility more than anything to get the hardcore FGC interested.
Understand that SFV gets shit on by some places in the community TO THIS DAY for it's input buffer to remove difficult execution barriers for new players.
SF certainly does not have the most complex systems, but compared to other genres? The learning curve on fighting games is ridiculous. There is definitely a push-pull between simplifying the game for new players and maintaining the core of the game for it's base.
"The best" is, er... well... I'm not sure I'm with you on that.
And, again, what is their "core audience"? Am I not part of the "core audience" because I prefer to play solo... and HAVE played Street Fighter solo since the Arcade days of the original game in the 80s? I've been a Street Fighter player longer than most current tournament players have been alive and have bought and played most Street Fighter games. I bought the animes and movies. I have figures of Ryu and Chun-li on my desk. I own comics, and artbooks, and posters.
But I prefer to play single player Arcade modes. So, what, am I somehow not a true Street Fighter player? Not a "core" player because I don't play or enjoy a particular mode?
I don't see how you can't make a competitive, competent fighting game with great single-player content. Why does a game with casual appeal HAVE to be "at the expense of the game's competitive side"? That honestly makes zero sense to me.
Many games are out there proving you can have your cake and eat it too. Capcom is not the king of fighters any longer; they stopped being competitive with their competition a long time ago.
Lets be honest here, those story modes are mostly Visual Novels. GG having at least some action scenes interspersed in between. But they probably did pay out the ass for all those what seems to be hours of voice acting both from the story modes and the fact that the VA's even double as optional announcer DLC. DBFZ on the other hand, looks like it might actually let you play through its story mode while not just be a bunch of static models standing around for most of it.
I understand that, but the hardcore still plays the game regardless of any of their "lol casual" criticisms. Marvel vs Capcom 3 was similarily easier with execution than its predecessor, but the FGC accepted it and continued to play it.
I think fighting games as a whole needs to modernize and streamline the entire process in a post-MOBA, post-streamlined FPS world.
But you'd also run into the issue of betraying what the franchise in question was built upon. And if you want something that's more streamlined in execution, that's what ARMS is & what Rising Thunder was supposed to be before Riot bought the developers.
I agree. But the developers themselves clearly want the genre to expand, given Capcom's sales expectations. In my opinion, there's no other way to do that than to streamline the gameplay itself. Street Fighter is in a bit of an identity crisis because it has no idea if it wants to appeal to the hardcore or the casual crowd. They want the title to expand, but in order to do so, they need to do more for that to happen.
Games like MKX & Injustice 2 proved that you can have both traditional fighting game gameplay & casual appeal as long as you have both decent single player content & proper unlockables to act as a means of progression. I'm not saying to bring back unlockable characters, but the Gear system was a nice solution (even just for the cosmetics). SFV seems to be doing something similar with Extra Battle (as a means to spend some Fight Money to potentially earn Capcom-themed costumes).
I didn't say they succeeded, I said they tried. Marketed it to casual fans and sell it for full price, but rush it out the door with little-to-no SP content to make the competitive season.
They wanted both and they need to prioritize one. I think they should prioritize competitive and let new players in via a Free To Play model. I don't think there's a need for Capcom to move towards NRS here.
I can't imagine there are many like you and when I say "core", I mean the people whose primary interest in Street Fighter is watching and playing other human beings.
Which is the vast majority of core SF fans.
Because you only have so much money and there are design priorities.
NRS has always done well at filling their games with content, but as a competitive facing product they've always done a poor job at balancing the game and keeping the community engaged. They probably should include things like "Arcade mode", but full fledged cinematic storylines? I don't think they should bother with that.
I always seem mildly confused when everyone says the fighting game community is small.
Mortal Kombat and Injustice games sell millions. Tekken series sells millions with the latest installment already hitting 2 million in sales in the first 4 months.
Now SFV and MVC:I both seemed to flop but those games had a slew of issues around their release and are not respective of the whole genre. SF4 and MvC3 were both successful if I'm not mistaken.
I'm not doubting Ono or the numerous individuals who say the community are small and need to grow. But realistically, what are the expectations of these games or the genre as a whole.
Mortal Kombat and Injustice games sell millions. Tekken series sells millions with the latest installment already hitting 2 million in sales in the first 4 months.
Now SFV and MVC:I both seemed to flop but those games had a slew of issues around their release and are not respective of the whole genre. SF4 and MvC3 were both successful if I'm not mistaken.
I'm not doubting Ono or the numerous individuals who say the community are small and need to grow. But realistically, what are the expectations of these games or the genre as a whole.
I didn't pick it up because
A: I didn't like the art direction(it needs to look like a cartoon, not bad cgi. If its not going to be 2d hand drawn animation, then they should have used the anime shader tech from GuiltyGear and DBZ.
B. No x-men.
C. It didn't take me for a ride.
A: I didn't like the art direction(it needs to look like a cartoon, not bad cgi. If its not going to be 2d hand drawn animation, then they should have used the anime shader tech from GuiltyGear and DBZ.
B. No x-men.
C. It didn't take me for a ride.
Fighting games as a whole don't need one thing. Tekken 7 is successful in spite of being insanely obtuse and difficult to understand. MVC:I is a hard game to play, but easier to get, and is a bomb.
I believe Street Fighter should move towards a KI model, become FTP and mine it's core consumers and superior eSports base. I think that's best for SF, I think that's best for SF fans and I think that's best for the FGC. At the same time, there's plenty of room for other fighters to become more casually accessible.
Casual crowd just want their story mode, some unlocks to feel a sense of "progression" and modes to dive in. In order to hook them in you can't cheap out the presentation, one of the reason why DBFZ is up there it's because well it's pretty (longevity on the gameplay remains to be seen but it will sell well regardless)
Streamlining the gameplay isn't the way to go, it makes for a boring product to see and play which is why sfv is having an identity crisis like you stated. Ultimately, Capcom doesn't have the budget to properly do something like injustice. At best, they should do it like Alpha3 have each character have rivals some anime cutscenes mixed in with character models scenes and you good to go.
Ono is the executive producer for all fighting game titles. The problem is that there is nobody else left at Capcom capable of handling the fighting games. The only one qualified that is still left at Capcom is Itsuno and he hasn't worked on a fighting game in over a decade.
Remember when Soul Calibur games had the Weapon Master modes where you went on quests with dungeons and such? This is such a simple way of opening a fighting game up to more possibilities than just climbing a ladder online.
MKX single player stuff is pretty shallow though. It'a a huge downgrade from mk9 and it sold great
I just don't think the higher ups at Capcom think fighting games are a priority. That's why the budgets have been small and in turn made SFV & MVC:I what they are. Look no further than Monster Hunter World & Resident Evil 7. They treated those games right and look at them, the former is one of the most anticipated games of 2018 and the latter is one of the better games of the year in a year where incredible games came out.
This is still a tricky balancing act to consider when it comes to the kind of game you are trying to sell. Do you go for a game that is for all? or the one for some? Of course you would say all, but then you run the risk of angering the pros who enjoy the game while if you say for some, you make the game feel unwelcoming to newcomers.
In this case, the presentation itself definitely did take several hits as it did seem as though the primary focus was just on the gameplay and little else. Hell, there are tutorials on how to mod the game online so that it can look better than it does. Capcom could definitely take some feedback from the community and try and tweak up the game's look and performance to hopefully try and fix a few of the issues with the game that isn't related to characters (even though that would be on Top 3 reasons why MvC:I didn't perform well).
In this case, the presentation itself definitely did take several hits as it did seem as though the primary focus was just on the gameplay and little else. Hell, there are tutorials on how to mod the game online so that it can look better than it does. Capcom could definitely take some feedback from the community and try and tweak up the game's look and performance to hopefully try and fix a few of the issues with the game that isn't related to characters (even though that would be on Top 3 reasons why MvC:I didn't perform well).
Their main problem is trying to be as cheap as possible while their competitors aren't. That's why casuals are rejecting their games, because they are perceived as "lesser value" compared to other games (not necessarily fighters). The games being too complex is a false problem, if people want to play it, they'll learn. But right now they don't even want to try. You have to lure in people with something (characters, graphics, story, boobs...), and then some of them will remain for the actual fighting gameplay.
Casuals play the arcade mode and then a few fights with friend maybe then that's it. But they tend to buy one or two fighting games just for fun.
Need compelling single player content for the casuals, but the game must be deep enough for the game to live on in
tournaments. Fighters are a unique genre indeed.
Guest characters like TMNT and Noctis will pull in casuals who might never play a fighter as well. My friend is considering getting Tekken 7 just because of Noctis. A lot of people want TMNT.
Capcom needn't jump on the bandwagon with guest characters (but it would be cool), but they should look at what makes other fighters sales successes and add that to their series (which have the esports/tournament side down pat).
Need compelling single player content for the casuals, but the game must be deep enough for the game to live on in
tournaments. Fighters are a unique genre indeed.
Guest characters like TMNT and Noctis will pull in casuals who might never play a fighter as well. My friend is considering getting Tekken 7 just because of Noctis. A lot of people want TMNT.
Capcom needn't jump on the bandwagon with guest characters (but it would be cool), but they should look at what makes other fighters sales successes and add that to their series (which have the esports/tournament side down pat).
Later iterations of Dead or Alive 5 do this pretty well on consoles, and I think by now that applies to PC as well.
That game gets too easily dismissed over its reputation though.
In any case, Capcom probably surrounded itself too much with people too steeped in the competitive side of things and lost some perspective. It should have been relatively simple to have a gallery in SF4 to view the endings as you reached them, but not even that, let alone interesting, right single-player mode that would encourage new players to practice their skills against a moving target without the stigma of losing against another person...
What do you mean? T7 has been quite successful, but the series is going down in sales and popularity. It has some hooks: good graphics, popular characters and the end of the infamous Mishima saga. These hooks translated into good sales, but not as good as they used to be because all said hooks are getting less and less relevant. Tekken used to be a graphic monster, but not anymore. Kazuya and Heiachi are well known to old farts like me, but not for younger generations, and so on.
He is right , even the biggest selling fighting games are limited by their difficulty compared to other genres. And even if they do sell a lot like Smash or MK. You get like maybe 1 or 2 games in an entire generation. Meanwhile other genres can pull multiple yearly 10m sellers. Or if the game is f2p , they get 50-100m userbase.
The main issue is that it is 1v1. Unlike other competitive games , where a team can carry you and help you learn. In a fighting game you need to train and get bodied to learn the hard way.
But at the same time the 1v1 aspect of fighting game is also the appeal , 1v1 mind games give you an experience no other team based game can do.
Making the game tooo casual friendly is also a double edged sword , sure you can bump up your initial sales numbers but your user retention is gonna drop like crazy and so does your potential to make money off DLC/eSports. If the millions of core users drop your game for another.
The main issue is that it is 1v1. Unlike other competitive games , where a team can carry you and help you learn. In a fighting game you need to train and get bodied to learn the hard way.
But at the same time the 1v1 aspect of fighting game is also the appeal , 1v1 mind games give you an experience no other team based game can do.
Making the game tooo casual friendly is also a double edged sword , sure you can bump up your initial sales numbers but your user retention is gonna drop like crazy and so does your potential to make money off DLC/eSports. If the millions of core users drop your game for another.
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Some of the characters that were in reddit's leak are really great choices but part of me says that I shouldn't believe all the info...
Sigh
It sold more than ttt2. So it's popularity and sales aren't going down.
The series is way down compared to how it used to sell in the old days. Tekken 3 on PS1 sold like 8.5 million copies iirc.
There is good reason that the T7 console port was so late, Namco makes most of its money on the series in the arcades these days.
It helps that they have WB to give them carte blanche. Capcom is in dire straits so they gave MvCI a shoestring budget.
A pond can have a shallow shoreline but will drive away swimmers if even being waist deep will get them swallowed by a shark.
Weren't they trying to appeal to the casual fighting gamers with MvCI? Isn't that the reason why it's 2v2, even more basic abc strings and the game looking jarringly realistic. I don't think that worked out for them.
Now they seem to be backpedaling and saying the game was intended for the core fighting gamers all along.
Now they seem to be backpedaling and saying the game was intended for the core fighting gamers all along.
that is true. It's also true that the game sold more than the previous one. So my point still stands.