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MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
I think what Capcom missed out on with the release of SFV was the balance between catering to the "pros" and "casuals", however despite the poor launch it's still the most popular fighter in the genre nearly 2 years later. The only fighter having crossplay also helps immensely as the community is what keeps these games alive in the long run.

With the release of SFV: Arcade Edition things are starting to look up and will hopefully brings in more casuals with all the new features and modes added in. As for what Ono said, he's not wrong. Unless you're are backed by Warner Bros or other huge publishers fighters will remain a niche genre.
 

Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
I don't hate the devs, but I'm glad that pandering to the FGC is not working.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
I don't hate the devs, but I'm glad that pandering to the FGC is not working.

That depends. If you are talking about their e-sports as an initiative? That's definitely working as their Capcom Pro Tour circuit has been successful - moreso than their competition in fact. Casuals? Not so much.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
East Lansing, MI
The rise didn't happen solely because of Street Fighter 4, it happened because the introduction of online gaming to consoles made PvP much easier to accomplish.

I was on GGPO and DO3 too but honestly nothing really took off until SF4 hit. They're called 09ers for a reason.

You're making a different claim. I'm responding to the claim that there "wasn't much to look forward to" for FGs prior to SF4. This is demonstrably false.

I actually think the genre is in a very similar space, in general, to its "Dark Ages" with the very notable exception that tournament numbers are clearly much larger now (and all the opportunities that come with that).

Playing the same games for a decade vs getting a new game every six months for the last 8 years kinda proves that there wasn't a whole lot to look forward to then vs now.

And the river of "this view, it makes me feel good, so that's what would work on a macro scale" in the face of erratic and nuanced evidence flows on...



c2n1JV0.jpg


"To be worse than dead...forgotten."

I love that game and it's sad that Sega doesn't believe in Virtua Fighter.
 

TwoCoins

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,493
Houston Tx
Alpha 3 home edition was a home port of a massively iterated game (Alpha 1, 2 3 arcade releases, home ports etc) so when they were doing the port to console it's not like they had to work on the base content we're seeing them add now. The game was done so so they had time to add goofy shit.

This is the advantage alpha games have by having number iterations, without being considered an dlc expansion update. I'd be happy if they made Super Street Fighter VI using the existing graphics and engine, totally new stages. add in 20+ more characters and a new mechanic and call it a day. I wish they could do something along the lines of SF x T without the tag mechanic...(charged specials and dash canceling) maybe include a 2v2 mode as well.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Alpha 3 home edition was a home port of a massively iterated game (Alpha 1, 2 3 arcade releases, home ports etc) so when they were doing the port to console it's not like they had to work on the base content we're seeing them add now. The game was done so so they had time to add goofy shit.
Capcom were the ones that put themselves in their initial position with Street Fighter V though. Look at Tekken - in spite of its graphical revamp, it's still using old animations, which can be jarring sometimes but clearly didn't hurt them in the end. Capcom completely remaking the roster from scratch for SFV was just their own choice.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,647
South Central Los Angeles
Well, thats what Capcom wanted. So, how much money is Capcom making from the game? Anyone has ballpark numbers?

Nobody knows. But considering SFV is still getting new sponsorship deals (the Red Bull colors this month) and pumping out cosmetics faster than any game this side of Overwatch, I'm willing to bet SFV is very profitable. And it's still good to move a hundred thousand units every quarter.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,229
Definitely side with Ono-san on this. He's right about the closed nature of it but also Netherrealm has bucked that trend for the last 4 titles which really asks why are they and others, are having such an issue.

NRS has put in real effort and thought for the single and casual user. Other devs not so much to various degrees. NRS will continue to lap the competition when their games drop with everyone else scratching their head wondering "why, we have story mode too"
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
Nobody knows. But considering SFV is still getting new sponsorship deals (the Red Bull colors this month) and pumping out cosmetics faster than any game this side of Overwatch, I'm willing to bet SFV is very profitable. And it's still good to move a hundred thousand units every quarter.

For sure.

Capcom, of all companies, isn't continuing to run dozens of tournament streams all over the world and give out 500k in prize-pool money because Street Fighter isn't making money.

People shouldn't lump SFV and MVC:I together. SFV is at about 2 million copies sold with a stable player-base, good sponsorship deals, TV coverage and the most consistent Twitch numbers in the FGC (maybe alongside Smash).

Now, if it were FTP.....
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
What more can they do to make Marvel accessible after simplifying the inputs again? Would it being one on one make it more approachable?
 

Yurinka

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,457
The need more SP content to catch the causal market .
Look at MK and Injustice.
Capcom SP content has been half ass this whole gen when it comes to fighting games while everyone else has way more.
I mean for certain SFV could have been bigger than what is right now.
This.

I think SFV should have been released with the content and features that is going to have at SFVAE release. It would have been received way better by gaming press and many players. Not sure if it's going to be too late for them or not to get a good push on sales, but I'm 100% sure it's a great step in the right direction.

As seen in PS trophies, most SF players (the mainstream) focus on single player content. They decided to start SFV betting on multiplayer almost exclusively I assume trying to appeal the pro/top/eSports players, but they are a tiny portion of their market. If they want healthy sales they need to focus on bringing a lot of single player content as MK, Injustice or even Tekken or Smash do.

I did work on important casual online multiplayer games during years, and there the matchmaking was key. For casual/entry level/low skill players it's super important to make sure you match them with people of their same level (or even match them with bots/fake players if there aren't players of their level), and Capcom never did a good job with them. Which results on frustration for some players and boring matches for another players.

Now, if it were FTP.....
In order to make a game F2P it needs to have plenty of paid DLC and a huge userbase. I think it's too soon for SFV, first they need to try to sell more copies with SFVAE (both at "full" and discounted price), and to continue releasing more features, content and paid DLC stuff. In almost a couple of years they would be ready to make SFVAE F2P.

Around 2019 PS4 will have a huge userbase and the game will run in low-end PCs, and after making it F2P if needed (I think it won't be the case because I think PS5 is going to be full BC) to port it to PS5 in order to have it as F2P launch game.
 
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Gunslinger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,401
Ono is delusional. NRS and Nintendo sell their fgs like hot cakes. Capcom stay losing customers due to bad business practices built over the years.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
The FGC is Street Fighter's greatest asset by far. The FGC ain't merely customers. They're the entertainers and chief marketers of the game.
An arcade mode and more characters would have gotten a day one purchase out of me.

The FGC had no impact on my decision, and I suspect a lot of others were the same.
 

Peace

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
978
France
I don't hate the devs, but I'm glad that pandering to the FGC is not working.

I don't think pandering to the FGC was the problem with SFV.

SFV is easy for beginner, it's the easiest Street Fighter game ever released. No 1 frame link, combo are brain dead easy, characters have almost no variation on normal moves, CA on reaction are more cruel than SFIV ultra sometimes etc. I'm what you can call a veteran Street Fighter player and I never had the feeling that the game was made for me, it's clearly made to be easier than SFIV, which was already easier than SF3.3. A lot of people are just upset about the lack of single player content and are happy to link SFV failure with it, but I don't think it's the case.

As a long time Street Fighter fan, here's my quick input :

- The art-style is repulsive to me, more than SFIV that already made my eyes bleed a lot in 3000h of playing it.
- The feeling is wrong and the pacing of match is atrocious, it revolve too much on the most boring mechanic ever made in fighting game : counter hits.
- Characters moveset is more limited than before (characters doesn't even have a different animations/properties from close-hit and the air-options are very limited).
- Normal move are slow and have huge recover, especially on guard, making the footsie game boring. Most of them lack range, which limit your options to 2 or 3 moves in footsies.
- Footsie game is slow, but once a hit connect, even randomly, it's often a 40% damage combo, making you even more careful.
And I could go on and on about what make this boring to play and boring to watch for long time Street Fighter fan.

I would have forgive SFV many things if it was fun to play, but after many hours playing it, I came to the conclusion that it was not. That's the main problem of SFV to me, it's a bad tuned fighting game at its core. SFIV was a bad fighting game, no doubt, but it had something that made you play again and again, despite knowing it wasn't good.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
In order to make a game F2P it needs to have plenty of paid DLC and a huge userbase. I think it's too soon for SFV, first they need to try to sell more copies with SFVAE (both at "full" and discounted price), and to continue releasing more features, content and paid DLC stuff. In almost a couple of years they would be ready to make SFVAE F2P.

Around 2019 PS4 will have a huge userbase and the game will run in low-end PCs, and after making it F2P if needed (I think it won't be the case because I think PS5 is going to be full BC) to port it to PS5 in order to have it as F2P launch game.

You go Free To Play from full price to CREATE a huge playerbase, not because you have one. There is more paid DLC for SFV than just about any other fighting game and more coming.

The KI model is correct for Street Fighter. They don't need to be wasting time on story-mode crap when they can attract new players simply by being free. The whole arc of early criticism on SFV came from the negative value proposition: Not because of the gameplay engine itself.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
Its kinda ironic.

What made SF2 iconic was the ability to play against a real person. It was the first real MP experience and thats what caused it to blow up.

And yet here we are talking about how to get more players in by getting them to watch Cinematics and fighting CPU with different modifiers. While these things do bring in more players than the average fighting game (MKX and Smash vs other fighters). Its just nowhere near their prime.

They need to figure out a new model to work for fighting games. kinda like how MOBAs work so well as an F2P.
Fighting games were perfect for the Arcade. 1v1 head to head is what that experience was about.

I don't hate the devs, but I'm glad that pandering to the FGC is not working.

Except they didnt. The game is the most casual friendly its ever been. So much so that it has gotten so much flak from the FGC for how noob friendly the game is. But the focus was to get casuals to play the MP rather than SP.

The problem was selling it as a $60 game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,141
I do wonder if a bigger playerbase with more new people to smash against would help.

Games like Dota 2, CS:GO and PUBG have no singleplayer to speak of and are gigantic successes. Do people actually want single player?
 

Yurinka

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,457
The FGC is Street Fighter's greatest asset by far. The FGC ain't merely customers. They're the entertainers and chief marketers of the game.
For a small niche like us maybe, but SFV didn't have very good launch sales so I doubt FGC had a very positive impact on SFV sales. I'd say all the hate it received from the FGC at launch negatively impacted its sales.

The game sales seems to prove it has legs, something that it seems to be more tied to the important post-launch content they add (they are doing a good work here to keep players engaged and provide the game visibility in gaming news pages or forums) and discounts Steam/PSN sales.

Games like Dota 2, CS:GO and PUBG have no singleplayer to speak of and are gigantic successes. Do people actually want single player?
The games you mention aren't related to SF at all, they are a different market. It's like to say GTAV, CoD, Candy Crush, Clash Royale or Clash of Clans have a huge success.

If we look at the best selling fighting games (Tekken, MK, Smash, Injustice...) compared to SF or MvCi they have a huge amount of single player content and features. If we look the PSN trophies of the Street Fighter games, most players play single player content and don't even play/win 10 online matches.

So yes, most fighting games players want single player.
 
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JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,647
South Central Los Angeles
For a small niche like us maybe, but SFV didn't have very good launch sales so I doubt FGC had a very positive impact on SFV sales. I'd say all the hate it received from the FGC at launch negatively impacted its sales.

The game sales seems to prove it has legs, something that it seems to be more tied to the important post-launch content they add (they are doing a good work here to keep players engaged and provide the game visibility in gaming news pages or forums) and discounts Steam/PSN sales.

I'm not talking about just sales. SFV is a burgeoning spectator sport. The FGC are the talent base for that spectator sport. People don't go to Twitch, YouTube, and ESPN2 to watch the CPU fight the CPU. It's the FGC that's pulling in those eyeballs, which pulls in that ad revenue.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224
That depends. If you are talking about their e-sports as an initiative? That's definitely working as their Capcom Pro Tour circuit has been successful - moreso than their competition in fact. Casuals? Not so much.

Not even for the competitors. A lot of the pros express their thoughts in BornFree and most are not positive with some expressing that this game focus too much on Esport.
 

Yurinka

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,457
You go Free To Play from full price to CREATE a huge playerbase, not because you have one.
Yes, but in F2P only a very small portion of players pay, so you need to have a lot of DLC ready to be bought (even more than the available right now in SFV) and then to be ready to throw there a huge amount of players because only some of them will pay. We know DOA5 Ultimate: Core Fighters (unknown results in PS3, under 500K users on Steam), Soul Calibur: Lost Swords (F2P, 2M users) only lasted 1 year, and KI (unknown results, at least they had 3 seasons but had to change the dev so maybe didn't perform very well).

There is more paid DLC for SFV than just about any other fighting game and more coming.
Yes, but we don't have any known important success of a F2P fighting game. I think SFV is the first proper GaaS fighting game in terms of new content and features being released constantly during several years, with potential to end having enough unlockable + purchasable content to end being a successful F2P (by just giving the base game for free, without any changes needed to be done in the in-game economy, post-launch content strategy, etc).

The KI model is correct for Street Fighter. They don't need to be wasting time on story-mode crap when they can attract new players simply by being free. The whole arc of early criticism on SFV came from the negative value proposition: Not because of the gameplay engine itself.
As I mentioned before, the most successful games (like MK, Injustice, Smash or Tekken, as I know we don't have anything to prove KI may be one of them) have a lot of single player content, and if you go to see in the PSN trophies of the SFV games, you'll see most players almost don't play online and focus on single player instead.
 

Type-Zero

Member
Oct 31, 2017
118
I'm just gonna say this. I plenty to say why fighting games are in this current situation but this is all from over time. Fighting games over time have too many mechanics. Happy mistakes like combos stayed... Nice. Then you have juggles, then add various cancels. Cancel let you return to neutral state to do something else. This is taking advantage of animation frames. Now balance this you need defensive options. Push block, burst, we have more than one meter to watch.

I love and play gg all the time and attend tournaments but fighting have come to a point where unless you were along for the ride at the beginning or are motivated enough to get good the first impression is daunting. My solution is make new fighting series that do away with that or do be very simple inputs and requirements. Not all fighters need to be at Evo. And if people wish to take it seriously a scene will just happen on its own like smash.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
East Lansing, MI
Is that what you were doing?

Weird, considering how many options there were if you weren't a Capcom conventionalist.

You're viewing history way differently than I am. Then again I played competitively which limited me to 3S, ST, MvC2, A3, UMK3, GGAC, Tekken 5 DR, Soul Calibur 4 (because lol 3,) and maybe Melty Blood or another poverty game if I was lucky.

The choices were limited back then competitively, unless you just played casually then perhaps I can concede that. Otherwise you had a lot of older games that lasted a decade, poverty, GGAC, Tekken, or HIlde mirrors in Soul Calibur 4 as options. The releases for quality fighters were a bit sparse back then. Again, that's why it was called the dark ages.

For example, EVO 2007 only had 8 games with a few small side tournaments at the BYOC area. Meanwhile EVO 2017 had 9 official games plus 13 side games by AnimEVO alone. On top of other smaller side tournaments.

To say that the variety and number of options the mid 2000s had somehow matched today is a stretch at best.
 
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Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Can anyone draw a timeline charting the brand rivalry between the Streetfighter series and Mortal Kombat? Which brand is stronger today, and what milestone factors have played into the prosperity and failure of each of the brands? IMO, I felt that Streetfighter was the stronger property, but MK was later able to finally catch up with SF with the 2011 reboot.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
Not even for the competitors. A lot of the pros express their thoughts in BornFree and most are not positive with some expressing that this game focus too much on Esport.

"Most" bring a handful I think. It's the usual vocal minority. I've seen differing views on both sides that are positive and negative and don't think I've seen many actually complain about it being e-sport - as that is some major income for some. Besides, CPT started with SFIV not SFV.
 

Spuck-

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
996
I think what Capcom missed out on with the release of SFV was the balance between catering to the "pros" and "casuals", however despite the poor launch it's still the most popular fighter in the genre nearly 2 years later. The only fighter having crossplay also helps immensely as the community is what keeps these games alive in the long run.

With the release of SFV: Arcade Edition things are starting to look up and will hopefully brings in more casuals with all the new features and modes added in. As for what Ono said, he's not wrong. Unless you're are backed by Warner Bros or other huge publishers fighters will remain a niche genre.

the thing that Capcom got wrong with SFV is that it was incomplete at launch, and feels absolutely terrible to play, and I'm saying this as someone who's been playing streetfighter games since 92.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
the thing that Capcom got wrong with SFV is that it was incomplete at launch, and feels absolutely terrible to play, and I'm saying this as someone who's been playing streetfighter games since 92.

Absolutely not denying it was incomplete at launch however in terms of gameplay, of course, it's subjective. I've played since the 3rd Strike days and, for me, it's up there as one of the most solid SF games. CC's need toning down though.
 

Spuck-

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
996
Absolutely not denying it was incomplete at launch however in terms of gameplay, of course, it's subjective. I've played since the 3rd Strike days and, for me, it's up there as one of the most solid SF games. CC's need toning down though.

Slow movement, piss poor normals, unresponsive, jab anti-airs. I could go on with all the things I dislike about it tbh. To say something positive though, the balance is better than almost any other streetfighter game.
 

Gemeanie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
443
SEA
Maybe it's just me but it's really crazy how there are actually buyers who have no interest in taking their skills online. I really don't get the point of playing if you're not interested in trying to fight other people. How much fun is battling against the AI even if the story mode is well done?
I play fighting games for story and lore for the past 20 years and intend to do so in future. I guess it's just happen FTG isn't a genre I feel motivated to git gud in compared to say, ACT or rhythm games.

I'm 100% sure I'm not alone and many other FTG games had a place for me. Heck I played the hell out of Darkstalkers and Rival Schools back then, and the World Tour mode in Alpha 3 was my favourite SP content in fighting games, only beaten a decade later by MK:D story mode
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224
"Most" bring a handful I think. It's the usual vocal minority. I've seen differing views on both sides that are positive and negative and don't think I've seen many actually complain about it being e-sport - as that is some major income for some. Besides, CPT started with SFIV not SFV.

Still those minority are big names. And CPT grew from the success of SF4, not the other way around. SFxT didn't even last a year and Infinite is not doing any better.

And this goes for every game that is advertised as a esports title before is released.
 

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,562
México
What more can they do to make Marvel accessible after simplifying the inputs again? Would it being one on one make it more approachable?
Except simplified inputs barely affected the game because that doesn't attract casuals. A good presentation and suite of modes does. Of which it had neither.

Besides most things about appealing to casuals was just lip service. Infinite far more less casual friendly than its predecessors.
 

FSLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,261
I play fighting games for story and lore for the past 20 years and intend to do so in future. I guess it's just happen FTG isn't a genre I feel motivated to git gud in compared to say, ACT or rhythm games.

I'm 100% sure I'm not alone and many other FTG games had a place for me. Heck I played the hell out of Darkstalkers and Rival Schools back then, and the World Tour mode in Alpha 3 was my favourite SP content in fighting games, only beaten a decade later by MK:D story mode
Yeah, and us competitive players also like single player modes. It's nice being able to relax and even practice some combos on some moving CPUs with an end goal in mind outside of being able to nail this setup/combo on the left side and right side of the screen. In SF4 I liked taking breaks between practicing in training to just do a dumb arcade mode run and get salty at Seth. And World Tour is the best, I hope someday Capcom goes back and looks at that and surpasses it....but considering the Capcom now....eh.
 
Nov 2, 2017
3,723
The old guard of developers will never learn the lesson that simplifying a 1v1 competitive game will never make it accessible.

First FG dev to come up with a 2v2 or 3v3 FG IP from the ground up will make bank.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
Its kinda ironic.

What made SF2 iconic was the ability to play against a real person. It was the first real MP experience and thats what caused it to blow up.

And yet here we are talking about how to get more players in by getting them to watch Cinematics and fighting CPU with different modifiers. While these things do bring in more players than the average fighting game (MKX and Smash vs other fighters). Its just nowhere near their prime.

They need to figure out a new model to work for fighting games. kinda like how MOBAs work so well as an F2P.
Fighting games were perfect for the Arcade. 1v1 head to head is what that experience was about.

Fighting games need to figure out something other than P2P matchmaking in my opinion. I might be a bit biased because I don't enjoy P2P random matchmaking in general, but I think it makes fighting games in particular even more intimidating for mainstream audiences as well as less personal.

Back in the day when most people played local MP, everybody could just get together and mash buttons with their friends without being too worried about really being competitive or being ranked globally. I'm talking more about the home console experience than the arcade experience though. The reason casuals may be gravitating more towards the SP experience in fighters today is so they don't have to deal with that hyper-competitive side. That and interest in the characters.

And it's not even about making the gameplay itself more accessible or easing people into being good at SF. The issue is most of the casuals don't actually care about ever being competitive. They just want to mash buttons and have fun. Right now when they go online, everybody gets put into roughly the same pool regardless of whether they're actually serious about the game. It's like lumping NBA players in with people who just get together at the gym every Saturday. There needs to be something separate for people in the latter camp.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,294
Houston, TX
The old guard of developers will never learn the lesson that simplifying a 1v1 competitive game will never make it accessible.

First FG dev to come up with a 2v2 or 3v3 FG IP from the ground up will make bank.
We already have 2v2 & 3v3 IPs, unless you mean having 4 players or 6 players respectively. And even then, SFxT already had a similar mode & MvCI is rumored to be getting one via a firmware update.
 

gflo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
373
jersey
I hope the game gets supported for years. They really should of released it in Nov/Dec with all 6 dlc characters as part of the main roster. The mechanics and the first wave of dlc character are great.
 
Nov 2, 2017
3,723
We already have 2v2 & 3v3 IPs, unless you mean having 4 players or 6 players respectively. And even then, SFxT already had a similar mode & MvCI is rumored to be getting one via a firmware update.

Yes, I mean 4-6 player simultaneous/tag team fighting game. We have IPs with Team Modes but not IPs with a primarily Team-Oriented focus. SFxT 2v2 was good, but the problem is, if you don't promote it from the ground floor, day 1, the white bread traditionalists of the FGC won't take it seriously. So modes like that always go ignored, despite their potential to draw casuals. They get dismissed as mere "Party Game" material, which is freaking-stupid. MVCI should have had 2v2 4 player since launch, just like MvC3 should have had 3v3 multiplayer since launch. I went off on Reddit over it being ignored (again). Implementing it now is a waste of time, money and resources unless they plan on relaunching the game.

So yeah, if someone builds a Team-Oriented FG and markets it as such from the day one, and it's solid, it's going to make bank. Bet it.