Your thoughts on course based 3D Mario games versus the open field 3D Marios?

[entremet]

A year ago Nintendo of Japan released an image classifying the 3D games into two types. Course based and Open Field (I believe).

The course based Mario games have been the ones that have dominated the most recent 3D Marios--It started with Galaxy and continued until 3DWorld. These games have clear objectives and linear progression for their goals. This does not mean the games are not 3D. Mario is still moving in a 3D space. He's just constricted to a course. The seeds of this style were planted in Sunshine's excellent FLUD-less levels.

The open field games started with 64, then Sunshine, and recently revived with Odyssey. They're not open world in the GTA or BoTW sense, but the objectives are not linear. You can tackle multiple objectives within a world and the level design is more open ended.

Obviously, you see a mix of these two in each of the sub genres. Odyssey has some 3DWorld style worlds and levels and the Galaxy games have some open ended sections. But we're talking about the overarching design.

As a fan of the games for a while (only Sunshine was subpar IMO) I have a preference for the course based games, especially 3DLand and 3DWorld, which was what I thought 3D Mario would be in my imagination as a wee lad playing Mario 3 and Super Mario World. There is linear progression, a platforming focus, and carefully crafted levels. I prefer this than the more exploratory style of 64, Sunshine and Odyssey.

I'm glad Odyssey is a thing and it's an excellent Mario. Also, Nintendo had neglected fans of that design for over a decade. Odyssey is also a beast and may become the best selling 3D Mario game (a record currently owned by Galaxy 1), so we may get a direct sequel. I do think Nintendo will port 3DWorld to the Switch. So I'm not sure when we will get another original course based title, but I do hope it's soon.

What are your thoughts on the these two styles?

 

[Kouriozan]

Personally I always prefered exploration but I also really like the course based ones.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Galaxy/3D > 64/Sunshine/Odyssey

From course design to variety to longevity, the more linear design shows off Mario much better than sandbox design

 

[Rygar 8Bit]

Prefer the open Odyssey styled worlds, only thing I didn't really feel was some of the repeated uninspired moon objectives. Wish they got more creative with those, but for overall world and level design I think it was top notch.

 

[entremet]

Click to shrink...

Man, you guys are fast lol.

Thanks!

My kanji literacy is horrible. I can read the Course games. What is the translation for Mario 64 genre ones?

 

[Eszik]

I like both, but I can't help feeling like open field is what 3D platformers should be. I didn't get far into Sunshine, but 64 and Odyssey are my two favorite 3D platformers ever. But it mostly has to do with the limited movement options the more linear games offer, so maybe I'd like Gaalaxy game with the freestyle movement of Odyssey.

 

[Y2Kev]

I thought I preferred the open style given I love 64, but after Odyssey I'm sure I think galaxy is actually the pinnacle. The creativity and ingenuity of that game (and its sequel) and the pace at which it doles out that creativity is sort of unmatched by the "open" games. Good to have both though.

 

[Renna Hazel]

I love both but have a slight preference for the more open style. 3D World is my jam though, co-op 3D Mario is what dreams are made of.

 

[Dyle]

Galaxy track is better by far, the tight curated levels are reliably consistent while the exploratory games are much more hit or miss.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

I love Odyssey but I love me some challenge based obstacle course Mario as well. I hope we just get both in the future and I don't see why we won't.
If I had to decide between one of them I doubt I could do it lol.

 

[Nostremitus]

Galaxy Games are not remotely the same as 3D Land/World.
Galaxy1>Odyssey>64>Sunshine>Galaxy2>>>>3DLand/World

 

[Shelbyville Milhouse]

I love Galaxy, Odyssey and 64 so just give me both.

 

[DanteMenethil]

Love both, hope they alternate between the two designs.

 

[jahasaja]

I would not say that Odyssey and 64 is in the same category. 64 feels much more course based compared to the open fields in Odyssey.

 

[entremet]

I would not say that Odyssey and 64 is in the same category. 64 feels much more course based compared to the open fields in Odyssey.

Click to shrink...

I'd say that's more due to the technical limitations, but the philosophy is more in line with open fields.

 

[The Unsent]

The course ones are easier to refine the challenge, but that feeling of jumping inside the magical paintings of Mario 64 or the epicness of climbing the towers of New Donk City, well that experience of exploring another world is really the best thing about games.

 

[The Almighty Tria]

I'd prefer an Odyssey game with much tighter course design please. A lot of the worlds were really boring to traverse because of fairly tame design.

 

[Majukun]

I like both styles as long as the exploration ones are actually about exploration (meaning the rewards are well hidden and located on interesting and/or difficult to reach parts of a level) and offer some good localized platform challenges on the side.

the obstacle course are good to, but in that case i'm more demaning in terms of difficulty..if a course is all you are gonna offer me, it better be fun and challenging.

 

[Deleted member 18161]

I thought I preferred the open style given I love 64, but after Odyssey I'm sure I think galaxy is actually the pinnacle. The creativity and ingenuity of that game (and its sequel) and the pace at which it doles out that creativity is sort of unmatched by the "open" games. Good to have both though.

Click to shrink...

I couldn't agree more with this. I would like the next 3D Mario to be much more like 3D World than Odyssey in terms of it being about 3D platforming challenges just without the timers, flag pole and multiplayer. I basically want Galaxy 3 :P

 

[fauxcalin]

Honestly watching Joseph Anderson's two hour critique of Odyssey really turned me off from the game. He went they every single moon and found that only around 1/8th of them came from platforming challenges or non-duplicated moon events and that to me soured the whole experience for me. Odyssey is a great game with tons of great Mario magic, however the moons are poorly implemented and lose their value incredibly fast.

 

[jotun?]

I rank the Galaxy games far above 3D Land/World. In my mind, Galaxy is an offshoot of the 64 branch (more focused levels) while 3D Land/World are offshoots of the NSMB branch (3d adaptation)

 

[AuthenticM]

I love them both. I hope the next Mario is a sequel to Odyssey. Then the next one after that can be a return to courses.

 

[Nocturnowl]

I still think that Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 should be on an arrow branching across from Sunshine to 3D Land, they're hybrid style.
Which is my favourite approach.

But if I had to choose between linear and open for 3D Mario, I'd go open because as good as 3D Land/World are, they feel like they're often treading on similar ground to 2D Mario which fills that niche fine (and arguably better), open Mario is pretty unique all things considered.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

yeah course clear for me. they actually feel like Mario games. Galaxy and 3D World are the pinnacle of the 3D Mario games. the exploration focused Mario games are my least favorite in the entire series safe for the first NES game

 

[RM8]

Course clear Mario games. I enjoyed 3D Land so, so much, it's honestly one of my favourite platformers ever.

Man, you guys are fast lol.

Thanks!

My kanji literacy is horrible. I can read the Course games. What is the translation for Mario 64 genre ones?

Click to shrink...

箱庭探索 - Boxed-garden exploration. It's the first time I read "boxed garden", lol.

 

[entremet]

I'm surprised people are calling the Galaxy games a hybrid style. The levels are very linear in those games. They do have some open field levels--like Honey Bee kindgom and the Water levels, but the majority of the levels are like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2Ed3Zy4mw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_A5CzwYBF4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqAjAdp-ybA

The design in the Galaxy games is more whimsical than grounded, though. The space theme helps there.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

I much prefer the course based games.

It's a testament to how great Odyssey is that I enjoyed it so much. I finished Mario 64 but never felt like going for all stars. Don't think I finished the DS version at all.
But there were high and low moments. Bits of boredom and just staring at the map and scrolling through lists. You don't have that in the course based games.

Honestly I've said it in previous threads but 3D World is my favourite Mario game.

 

[Sterok]

Well the Galaxies are my top games ever so...

Honestly, I kind of feel Odyssey is a better game than 3D Land/World with how free and varied the movement is. Odyssey knows what it wants to do and accomplishes it very well. But there weren't all that many good platforming challenges, and many of the ones that were good felt a bit too short. So I kind of prefer the 3D_ series even if I'd hesitate to call them better than Odyssey. Regardless, both styles deserve to exist and are good with their own merits.

 

[DeliciousSunnyD!]

I far, far prefer the course/linear style 3D Mario games to the open/adventure style 3D Marios. The Galaxies, and especially the 3D games, take classic Super Mario and move that design into 3D space. These games are all about running, jumping and interacting with/avoiding the classic enemy ensemble.

The adventure style games are far more limited in these things. There's very little jumping over pits, very little stomping on Goombas/Koopas, very little avoiding Bullet Bills and very little to no power-ups. These things are Mario to me. For me, Mario is all about running, jumping, stomping and avoiding, and the adventure games do very little of these core design tenets.

I think a person's preference for which style of 3D Mario they prefer is mostly based on what that person's first Mario game was. If their first game was one of the classic 2D SMB platformers, I think they'll be more likely to prefer the more focused, linear, course-based Marios. If their first Mario game was Super Mario 64, I think they'll be more likely to prefer the open, adventure, world-based Marios.

Personally, I think Odyssey is the weakest 3D Mario game besides Sunshine, but it's good that people who like that kind of Mario finally got another of that style. I thought the best SMO levels were the ones that were smaller and more focused, like Lakeside and Lost Kingdoms.

 

[Nosgotham]

I much prefer Mario 64/Odyssey style.

But the galaxy games dud it right when it comes to "course" Mario. 3d world, I didn't get much enjoyment out of at all. Very disappointing

 

[azeke]

Honestly watching Joseph Anderson's two hour critique of Odyssey really turned me off from the game.

Click to shrink...

You just let another person diminish your enjoyment of the game. Congrats.

He went they every single moon and found that only around 1/8th of them came from platforming challenges or non-duplicated moon events and that to me soured the whole experience for me. Odyssey is a great game with tons of great Mario magic, however the moons are poorly implemented and lose their value incredibly fast.

Click to shrink...

Odyssey is a clear reaction to reception of 3D Land and 3D World which were laser guided on platforming. But people hated it so much and wanted "more EXPLORATION!!" an demanded to remove "bottomless pits and timer because they are too gamey!!!"

That's exactly what people got -- less jumping and more running around collecting carrots/moons/collectables a-la Banjo Kazooie.

People LOVE it and they don't even have to jump. It's perfect.

 

[Villa]

I rank the Galaxy games far above 3D Land/World. In my mind, Galaxy is an offshoot of the 64 branch (more focused levels) while 3D Land/World are offshoots of the NSMB branch (3d adaptation)

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Yeah, that's how they feel to me as well.

I definitely prefer the open field Mario games. 64 and Odyssey are probably my favourite Mario platformers and, while the execution was definitely lacking in areas, Sunshine had my favourite vision/intentions of the series.

Of the Course Based games, 3D Land was ok, it was perfect for the 3DS, but 3D World I was really disappointed in. Galaxy 1 though, I loved and hold in similar regard to the open field games.

 

[o Tesseract]

I much prefer course-based and 3D World solidified that. What a fantastic game, through and through. I hope we get a Switch port of it so that I don't need to break out the Wii U to play it.

 

[entremet]

You just let another person diminish your enjoyment of the game. Congrats.


Odyssey is a clear reaction to reception of 3D Land and 3D World which were laser guided on platforming. But people hated it so much and wanted "more EXPLORATION!!" an demanded to remove "bottomless pits and timer because they are too gamey!!!"

That's exactly what people got -- less jumping and more running around collecting carrots/moons/collectables a-la Banjo Kazooie.

People LOVE it and they don't even have to jump. It's perfect.

Click to shrink...

I don't think people hated those games. They sold very well and reviewed very well, especially 3DLand. 3DWorld had a rather high attach rate given the Wii U disaster.

Even Koiziumi mentioned that he's not done with Course Clear games. The issue is that adventure style games have been neglected for over decade. I prefer the course based games, but I'm happy they did something different with Odyssey. Way too many superfluous Moons, tho.

 

[Duffking]

I really liked 3D Land and World. They felt exactly like a 3D version of classic Mario, which I assume was the intention. Like a more literal translation into 3D. I don't think they're any better or worse than the other style.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

Course based but Galaxy 2 and 3D World are a few notches above Galaxy 1 and 3D Land which generally have safer design. Basically it goes

Galaxy 2 > 3D World > Odyssey > Galaxy 1 > 64 > 3D Land > Sunshine

 

[LuigiMario]

Course-based, any day if the week. I think Galaxy 1 was the closest they got to satisfying both camps, as there were open areas but the objectives were relatively clear from the get go and the focus was usually reaching the end point and overcoming obstacles, though in a less linear fashion than say, 3D Land/World.

I really don't like how little of Odyssey involved platforming, a lot of it was just running around and finding things. Sequence breaking and advanced movement is neat but as someone who just wants to play and enjoy a game vs master every mechanic to break it.

 

[ClickyCal']

You really can't put galaxy in the same category as the 3d games. Galaxy has full camera control and styled like the open games, has the same controls but less options, no run button or big/small mario, no time limits except for challenge missions, etc. Plus there are some outright completely open galaxies.

 

[SmittyWerbenManJensen]

The style of the game does not correlate with the quality. I'd much much much rather play 3D World than 64 or Sunshine (since it Is much much better), but I think the Galaxy games and Odyssey are probably the best games.

 

[AppleKid]

While I do prefer the sandbox style, I think my ideal 3D Mario would be a style like 3D Land with levels that were slightly more open (which 3D Land did have some of) but with a sense of progression from level to level within each world.

For example, in World 1 of Mario+Rabbids I ADORE how you start in the jungle with the block tower in the distance and then move closer and closer with minor story elements pushing you along in between each Act until you eventually climb the thing. If each collection of levels making up a world had felt more organized in this way, 3D Land may just have turned out to be my #1

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I prefer course-based

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Galaxy > 3D World > Galaxy 2 > 3D Land > Odyssey > 64 > Sunshine

 

[entremet]

You really can't put galaxy in the same category as the 3d games. Galaxy has full camera control and styled like the open games, has the same controls but less options, no run button or big/small mario, no time limits except for challenge missions, etc. Plus there are some outright completely open galaxies.

Click to shrink...

There are some linear sections on 64, Sunshine (Fluddless levels), and Odyssey as well, but there is a clear thematic preference toward one style. Also, full camera controls and run buttons has nothing to do with the level design philosophy itself.

 

[RPGam3r]

I prefer pseudo open entries like Odyssey, Sunshine and 64 over the linear 3D entries. If it has to be linear just make it 2D.

Open 3D > 2D > linear 3D

 

[Kinsei]

I vastly prefer course based Mario games. The open ones are fine but they are far surpassed by games like Banjo and Spyro.

 

[Captain N. Tenneal]

Course-based is definitely my favorite after finishing Odyssey. I enjoyed my time with it, but it felt lacking in platforming and overall challenge that I have come to find I prefer.

I do feel like Galaxy bridged the gap well, some more open levels, lots of incredibly inventive courses and challenges. It never became dull for me.

 

[Pancracio17]

I love exploration more, but I also like Course Based Mario better than modern 2D Mario, so lets kill the New series and make both, 3D World and Odyssey sequels.

 

[Radishhead]

Honestly, I think the course-based 3D games are just a worse version of the 2D Mario games. Platforming in 3D space will never be as satisfying as 2D platforming to me. Exploration 3D is the only one worth my time (and I like Exploration 3D games more than any 2D Mario).

 

[ClickyCal']

There are some linear sections on 64, Sunshine (Fluddless levels), and Odyssey as well, but there is a clear thematic preference toward one style. Also, full camera controls and run buttons has nothing to do with the level design philosophy itself.

Click to shrink...

Yea, but even 64 has some linear stars/worlds. Galaxy games are very structured 64/sunshine/ The 3d games feel like nsmb, but in 3d. Plus even in a lot of linear galaxies, you can offshoot to side planets/rocks/etc. I know a lot of people that have liked the galaxy games way more than the 3d games, and there's a reason.

 

[entremet]

I love exploration more, but I also like Course Based Mario better than modern 2D Mario, so lets kill the New series and make both, 3D World and Odyssey sequels.

Click to shrink...

I think the New Series is now the Mario Maker series. Seems like the nature evolution of it.