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Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Except people with that mindset like Trump, many who will vote for Biden don't care for him that much.

They realise voting for Biden is a lot more than just who sits in the oval office.
I think that is the key factor, for a lot the vote for Biden is not out of undying love of Biden like Trump has from his adoring fans. It is a vote for a competent working government and cabinet where non-alt right judges get appointed to the courts. I don't think Biden has any adoring fans, or at least I have never encountered one. They vote for him as a vessel for a competent government in my experience.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
There are like three other threads to rationalize voting for an alleged rapist who is on your team.

This one is about Tara Reade and her accusation of rape against Joe Biden

If some of you showed half of the devotion for defending voting Biden instead for victims of sexual assault, people like Reade would feel more comfortable to step forward.

Absolutely shameless.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,085
I mean... many of us had this concern ages ago, were ignored, and now this. This is the worst case scenario playing out in front of me.

Yeah, the sad reality is that many people on both sides just play politics as a team game. Its not about ideology or integrity or policy. Its about winning by any means necessary.

I guess Obama for 8 years and then being united against Trump for another 4 kind of blinded a lot of us to this reality.

For some of us, it's been a concern for a while because too many people view politics as a game. It's fascinating up and down, but viewing it as entertainment or a game is why we have useless hacks like Chuck Todd on TV.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
I think that is the key factor, for a lot the vote for Biden is not out of undying love of Biden like Trump has from his adoring fans. It is a vote for a competent working government and cabinet where non-alt right judges get appointed to the courts. I don't think Biden has any adoring fans, or at least I have never encountered one. They vote for him as a vessel for a competent government in my experience.
Yeah this is my experience too. Even the people I've talked to who like Biden admit he's not ideal but people just want a step back towards a functioning government not ran by a Neo Nazi accused serial rapist.

I don't like Biden at all and this allegation definitely makes me hate him a whole lot more. I'm just going to grit my teeth and vote for him anyway because the alternative is infinitely more damaging for this country and the world.
 

Sruckus

Banned
Jul 16, 2018
60
User banned (permanent): troll account
This is cute how you all are falling for the same Russian propaganda you accused the right of. They know they can continue to exploit your sour grapes that Bernie failed and keep going after Biden and building resentment. This woman has told her "story" 3 different times already and has changed key details each time it didn't land how she presumably wanted. and of course she wrote an off the rails letter praising Putin that conveniently got deleted.

youre all still to easy and it's sad that the far left can fall victim to the same misinformation as the (now just regular) right.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
This is cute how you all are falling for the same Russian propaganda you accused the right of. They know they can continue to exploit your sour grapes that Bernie failed and keep going after Biden and building resentment. This woman has told her "story" 3 different times already and has changed key details each time it didn't land how she presumably wanted. and of course she wrote an off the rails letter praising Putin that conveniently got deleted.

youre all still to easy and it's sad that the far left can fall victim to the same misinformation as the (now just regular) right.

This is disgusting.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,047
A fucking embarrassment is what the Democratic Party is.

How the fuck are you going to run on a Presidential platform that is supposed to beat Trump and be the antithesis for everything he stands for and you knowingly field the guy who has done more to try and uphold institutional racism in his past than Trump ever accomplished being a racist landlord?

Worst yet- as shown time and again this past week, when Trump voters say they voted for him for other reasons and don't support his sexual assaults and other bullshittery we did armchair morality preaching and said that a vote for Trump was approval of everything he did PERIOD.

Now here we are with Joe being an alleged rapist with many more instances of him violating the personal space of the women around him and suddenly...uh oh we aren't '''technically''' voting for Joe Biden, we are voting for an abstract. Suddenly not everyone who votes for Joe is showing approval for his sexual allegations. 'He's the better rapist so grit your teeth and vote for him (after yelling at users for days after first ST about how they being unenthusiastic hurts Joe.).

I think of this whole dibacle I've seen only THREE users who are still voting for Biden acknowledge that they are- whether they like it or not giving an endorsement for all the things he has done and I have a hell of a lot more respect for them than the excuses and bullshit I've seen all week.

This shit was supposed to be a fucking shoe in. But leave it to this party to get the worst fucking guy because one old fuck told them they suck so they hate them and the others were even more uninspiring than Joe.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
This is cute how you all are falling for the same Russian propaganda you accused the right of. They know they can continue to exploit your sour grapes that Bernie failed and keep going after Biden and building resentment. This woman has told her "story" 3 different times already and has changed key details each time it didn't land how she presumably wanted. and of course she wrote an off the rails letter praising Putin that conveniently got deleted.

youre all still to easy and it's sad that the far left can fall victim to the same misinformation as the (now just regular) right.

You know what, I'll entertain you. If it turns out she's a deep russian plant who inexplicably posted public support of putin then you're right, I'm a complete sucker and putin played me like a fiddle. So what? So fucking what? Why should I be so afraid of being wrong or being duped that I wouldn't believe women?
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
This is cute how you all are falling for the same Russian propaganda you accused the right of. They know they can continue to exploit your sour grapes that Bernie failed and keep going after Biden and building resentment. This woman has told her "story" 3 different times already and has changed key details each time it didn't land how she presumably wanted. and of course she wrote an off the rails letter praising Putin that conveniently got deleted.

youre all still to easy and it's sad that the far left can fall victim to the same misinformation as the (now just regular) right.
Absolutely pathetic behaviour. The fact someone made an account just to spout more of this shit about her being a Russian plant is disgraceful
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,972
Night City
A fucking embarrassment is what the Democratic Party is.

...

This shit was supposed to be a fucking shoe in. But leave it to this party to get the worst fucking guy because one old fuck told them they suck so they hate them and the others were even more uninspiring than Joe.

Because the Democractic Party is seeing "Anyone but Trump" and "Vote Blue No Matter Who" as a means to return to the pre-Trump status quo instead of fielding a candidate that risks pushing the party further left, and they're willing to risk losing the GE to do it. In any real election Biden would be absolutely destroyed by the Republican candidate because of these allegations but Dems are hoping Trump is just bad enough that Biden can steal a win. The Democratic Party is actually willing to set up an Alleged Rapist (R) vs Alleged Rapist (D) match.

I can't even begin to estimate how many people would sit out voting for Biden in the General over this and the party being split so hard between moderates vs progressives. How do you even begin to unify the party with this sitting over everything?
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
You know what, I'll entertain you. If it turns out she's a deep russian plant who inexplicably posted public support of putin then you're right, I'm a complete sucker and putin played me like a fiddle. So what? So fucking what? Why should I be so afraid of being wrong or being duped that I wouldn't believe women?
Unless there is actual evidence that she made the rape up, I believe her fully.

So far we've had only had users blame the victim for the timing and completely irrelevant opinions about Putin.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
So I'm guessing because there hasn't been any traction over the last week there probably won't ever be any presentation on major media. In fact, even Trump cronies aren't loudmouthing this, though this all may be because we're occupied with Coronavirus unless I missed something.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
So I'm guessing because there hasn't been any traction over the last week there probably won't ever be any presentation on major media. In fact, even Trump cronies aren't loudmouthing this, though this all may be because we're occupied with Coronavirus unless I missed something.
Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey's accusation against Bill Clinton were all reported on by the media in 2016, and Bill Clinton was not actually running for president and those were sold stories that have generally been well known to the public.
This will 100% geting reported on in this cycle.
Conservatives know how to get the media to report on stuff that they want.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Worst yet- as shown time and again this past week, when Trump voters say they voted for him for other reasons and don't support his sexual assaults and other bullshittery we did armchair morality preaching and said that a vote for Trump was approval of everything he did PERIOD.

Now here we are with Joe being an alleged rapist with many more instances of him violating the personal space of the women around him and suddenly...uh oh we aren't '''technically''' voting for Joe Biden, we are voting for an abstract. Suddenly not everyone who votes for Joe is showing approval for his sexual allegations. 'He's the better rapist so grit your teeth and vote for him (after yelling at users for days after first ST about how they being unenthusiastic hurts Joe.).
100% truth!

People can justify it however they want but it's exactly the same situation.

As a Brit I have no horse in this race but if I did, I couldn't bring myself to vote for Biden.

If you can because you think he can do good compared to trump, that's one thing, but don't you dare criticise trump voters who did the same exact thing because they believed his bullshit about making America great again.

Either you stick with your moral code or you compromise, it's that simple.
 

Takuhi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,307
Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey's accusation against Bill Clinton were all reported on by the media in 2016, and Bill Clinton was not actually running for president and those were sold stories that have generally been well known to the public.
This will 100% geting reported on in this cycle.
Conservatives know how to get the media to report on stuff that they want.

Those were old stories so there would be no risk of defamation in repeating them. Also the three accusers substantiated each other. But there were lots of plausible but single-sourced stories the mainstream media never ran with in 2016, like the pee tape, the 13-year old Jane Doe's rape accusations against Trump, and Trump's former doorman claiming Trump had an affair with a housekeeper and aborted the baby. The fact that major media is ignoring this the way they ignored those makes me think they weren't able to substantiate it to their satisfaction, and there would probably need to be another development--filing criminal charges, a lawsuit, a second accuser, etc.--to get it picked up.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,238
Those were old stories so there would be no risk of defamation in repeating them. Also the three accusers substantiated each other. But there were lots of plausible but single-sourced stories the mainstream media never ran with in 2016, like the pee tape, the 13-year old Jane Doe's rape accusations against Trump, and Trump's former doorman claiming Trump had an affair with a housekeeper and aborted the baby. The fact that major media is ignoring this the way they ignored those makes me think they weren't able to substantiate it to their satisfaction, and there would probably need to be another development--filing criminal charges, a lawsuit, a second accuser, etc.--to get it picked up.

This is also a recent story and with covid-19 I'm sure confirming the details is much harder work than normal.

Give it some time
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Those were old stories so there would be no risk of defamation in repeating them. Also the three accusers substantiated each other. But there were lots of plausible but single-sourced stories the mainstream media never ran with in 2016, like the pee tape, the 13-year old Jane Doe's rape accusations against Trump, and Trump's former doorman claiming Trump had an affair with a housekeeper and aborted the baby. The fact that major media is ignoring this the way they ignored those makes me think they weren't able to substantiate it to their satisfaction, and there would probably need to be another development--filing criminal charges, a lawsuit, a second accuser, etc.--to get it picked up.
That's not how defamation works.
The media will report that he's being accused and what he's being accused of, this is 100% protected speech and any attempt to sue a publication over it will be laughed out of court.
And it's not going to be about whether or not the media can verify her claim. I suspect at some point Trump or one of his PACs will cut and ad about it or he will mention it in a debate and than the media will report on it.
The media reported on the swift boat veterans for truth which had zero evidence and less than zero credibility behind it. Once it becomes a campaign issues the US media always report on it and it will almost always try to "present both sides".
 

Takuhi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,307
For the media, I believe it's more about editorial standards than the fear of lawsuits. People attempt to use the media to defame others all the time, especially in election years, so they have a fairly high bar for such accusations. As you say, the Trump campaign can force their hand at any point, but I'm sure they would rather it emerged naturally than be seen as coming from their campaign.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
For the media, I believe it's more about editorial standards than the fear of lawsuits. People attempt to use the media to defame others all the time, especially in election years, so they have a fairly high bar for such accusations. As you say, the Trump campaign can force their hand at any point, but I'm sure they would rather it emerged naturally than be seen as coming from their campaign.
Everything Trump and Republican talking heads will make an issue will be covered in the media. Everything.
Did everyone already forget how many Benghazi and emails bullshit stories they ran the last cycle?
And this is almost certainly not something that they can fact check and prove as false.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
100% truth!

People can justify it however they want but it's exactly the same situation.

As a Brit I have no horse in this race but if I did, I couldn't bring myself to vote for Biden.

If you can because you think he can do good compared to trump, that's one thing, but don't you dare criticise trump voters who did the same exact thing because they believed his bullshit about making America great again.

Either you stick with your moral code or you compromise, it's that simple.
It's even worse than just being hypocritical because it's also proof they were dragging victims of sexual assault into the crossfire just for picking up partisan points, not to fight sexual assault.

I think it's people's right to choose how important the sexual assault issue is to them on the scale of "pretty important" to "absolutely everything" because everyone has things they care most deeply about for reasons that are their own. And beyond that we can debate about if lesser of two evils logic or essentializing/moralizing your vote to a single issue makes sense in that context. But I'll never stand by using victims as tools to score partisan points with.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,501
Alyssa Milano took #MeToo out of her bio, and she is one of the earliest supporters of the movement. The Biden loyal are rallying behind him just like the Weinstein faithful and the Polanski supporters before that.
 

Vestal

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,297
Tampa FL
So I'm guessing because there hasn't been any traction over the last week there probably won't ever be any presentation on major media. In fact, even Trump cronies aren't loudmouthing this, though this all may be because we're occupied with Coronavirus unless I missed something.

it's two fold.
1. Corona Virus is the story of our life times and rightfully so it takes precedent over anything else.
2. Mainstream outlets won't pull the trigger on this until they do their own investigations and can corroborate themselves. It's taking longer because there is a much bigger and important story out there right now.

Don't mean to down play but currently it's just a fact. COVID-19 and all that is related to it is the story of a generation and anything else will get drowned out until we get to the other side.

edit:
Hopefully when the dust settles on COVID mainstream outlets will be able to dig into it and maybe then we can get a clearer picture on this and let it play out.
 
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FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
I
it's two fold.
1. Corona Virus is the story of our life times and rightfully so it takes precedent over anything else.
2. Mainstream outlets won't pull the trigger on this until they do their own investigations and can corroborate themselves. It's taking longer because there is a much bigger and important story out there right now.

Don't mean to down play but currently it's just a fact. COVID-19 and all that is related to it is the story of a generation and anything else will get drowned out until we get to the other side.

edit:
Hopefully when the dust settles on COVID mainstream outlets will be able to dig into it and maybe then we can get a clearer picture on this and let it play out.
It will also be weaponized by the right when they think they can cause the most damage with it. Shortly before the election... When there really is only a choice between Trump and Biden. Right now there would still be a chance to get rid of Biden if we collectively pursued that...
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
People hate Trump (in 2016 it was Clinton) so much they will ignore sexually abused victims, never has this been more clear on both sides

Which shows one of the problems in acting like Trump is the cause of the US's ills instead of a - admittedly obnoxious and baffling - symptom. The worst shit will be ignored even when it shouldn't, and principles will be thrown out the window because 'if only we could get rid of tHe OrAnGe ChEeTo''.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
I wasnt going to vote for biden but with the way Trump has been acting during this pandemic I've been reconsidering.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,667
I
It will also be weaponized by the right when they think they can cause the most damage with it. Shortly before the election... When there really is only a choice between Trump and Biden. Right now there would still be a chance to get rid of Biden if we collectively pursued that...

It's clear that people are becoming more drawn to Biden as this goes on. I really don't see how Biden isn't the nominee at this point outside of him dying.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
Which shows one of the problems in acting like Trump is the cause of the US's ills instead of a - admittedly obnoxious and baffling - symptom. The worst shit will be ignored even when it shouldn't, and principles will be thrown out the window because 'if only we could get rid of tHe OrAnGe ChEeTo''.

the worst thing liberals are doing is making Trump the reason for every issue in the world, like it was heaven on earth before he was elected
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Which shows one of the problems in acting like Trump is the cause of the US's ills instead of a - admittedly obnoxious and baffling - symptom. The worst shit will be ignored even when it shouldn't, and principles will be thrown out the window because 'if only we could get rid of tHe OrAnGe ChEeTo''.

Welcome to life, where your morals and principles will always be tested and cause you to do what most humans have to do... prioritise. What do you prioritise? Well, it's up to anyone as an individual to argue for why they are ignoring or categorising something as less serious/important as something else.

That being said, at no point should it ever be acceptable for anyone in a position of power, such as a politician/leader, to be a rapist. No matter what colours they wear. The argument can probably be made it's even more damaging when the side that is supposed to be something resembling left-wing has a rapist, instead of whatever trash-fire the right is backing without thinking.

The path of "less evil" is never sustainable. It's a carrot and stick kind of poison and America should know that better than anyone given the lack of progress on two of your main issues, healthcare and gun control.

Remember that before Trump was elected other terrors came before him. Bush blew up half the middle east and helped usher in non-stop waves of terrorism into America/Europe, let alone the loss of life of people in those regions. Other people have blocked progress or even reversed it. More will come after him. It's sobering to remember this, but you all must. Because Trump will be out of the White House at some point and that in of itself doesn't instantly mean everything will now be better.

Biden was always a trash candidate/leader for American's futures who want tangible change, but with the way the wind is blowing the electorate have prioritised simply trying to get rid of Trump no matter what.

The UK, more so England, isn't currently doing much better at leading on the forefront of progressive people politics. Grim times all around the world, but it goes without saying potentially being a rapist is far more troublesome than being an ineffectual leader or some of the other issues people can have with politicians. Many politicians aren't good fits to run a sustainable and progressive country, but not all of those who attempt are potentially rapists as well.

There is no perfect person, let alone perfect leader, but the bar should be higher than "hasn't raped someone". Gotta feel shitty for this woman and any others who aren't taken seriously enough. That itself is what suppresses soo many from speaking due to how difficult it can be talking against wealth and power.
 
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spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
People hate Trump (in 2016 it was Clinton) so much they will ignore sexually abused victims, never has this been more clear on both sides

Biden supporters on social media have been absolutely toxic, shouting down victims and saying him taking is ok because he raped less and calling everyone a russian bot. This has really shown whose base is the actually ugly people, tbh (spoilers: it's the ones defending rape)
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
Which shows one of the problems in acting like Trump is the cause of the US's ills instead of a - admittedly obnoxious and baffling - symptom. The worst shit will be ignored even when it shouldn't, and principles will be thrown out the window because 'if only we could get rid of tHe OrAnGe ChEeTo''.

Here's a blast-from-the-past article from 5 years ago that literally warned us about this very thing:
talkingpointsmemo.com

Why Does Creepy Uncle Joe Biden Get A Pass From Liberals?

A swearing-in featuring Joe Biden is gaffe-porn, when both the Vice President’s best and worst are on full display. It’s when Biden is in his truest form— “unleashed,” as they say—and the chamber is…

...
Now I'm wondering whether I'm a "bad liberal" to call him out. That means aligning myself with conservatives who love crying "double standard" on issues like this, not because they actually care about feminism, but to push their liberal media bias agenda.

But not wanting to cede a point to the right doesn't justify ignoring questionable behavior, which we have done since Biden came on the national scene. As early as 2007, when he called Obama "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," or said "you cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent," we have forgiven him. We offer arguments like: That's just good ol' Joe. He doesn't get it. He's of a different generation.
Being an ally to women is about more than just positions or legislation. The kind of sexism that Biden exhibits is perhaps the most pernicious kind, because it's so easily waved away. It's the classic definition of sexual harassment, the kind that most women tolerate on a daily basis from coworkers or friends. The kind they have hard time fighting against because of arguments like this one from Matt Lewis, who wrote a defense of Biden today in The Week, and pulled the political-correctness, old-man-shtick card:
...

Firstly, it's wrong for a man to decide what makes women uncomfortable. But besides that, being a public figure who supports women means more than just supporting political causes. It also means treating them with respect, especially in public. If progressives are really committed to combating sexism, they have to be indiscriminate about calling it out—even if it means indicting one of their own.

There were warning signs ages ago. We all knew it because it was talked about a lot back then. Still we excused it or ignored it because like the author said - we liked his politics (compared at least to the other). We didn't want to be seen as being in the same sphere of conservatives who would hop on it as ammo. And other excuses repeated in this thread and related threads.

But there exists this massive cognitive dissonance, not too dissimilar from repubs, when it comes to politicians on our side and the evil that they do, sadly. Everything is now just a political game and instead of real human beings we have chess pieces on a board. And that very much includes victimized women. Merely pieces on a board. If you're not helping our side because it makes us look bad, then to hell with you. Maybe some will say it with a smile and give false support ("I hear you" and "I understand" and blah blah blah), but in the end it's all the same bullshit and lies conservatives have been throwing at us.
 

Vestal

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,297
Tampa FL
Biden supporters on social media have been absolutely toxic, shouting down victims and saying him taking is ok because he raped less and calling everyone a russian bot. This has really shown whose base is the actually ugly people, tbh (spoilers: it's the ones defending rape)
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. People are afraid. I mean look at what has happened over the past 3 years, shit look where we are now. Fear is in many ways the driving force for change right now, fear that 4 more years of this will cause so much irreparable harm that will last a generation.

Combine that fear with a lack of mainstream reporting from sources people trust and you get that sort of vile shit on social media. People reacting to this story that currently lives only online and hardly on right wing talk shows, they react from that place of fear, of questioning its validity, and of not wanting to tarnish what they see as the only hope to get out of 4 more years of insanity.

It should be just about the what happened. But sadly there is so much more going on and at stake that it will get drowned out unless there is wide spread reporting and investigations by those outlets.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
I'm frustrated by the lack of investigations.

On a pure political lizard brain take: If Biden did this, keeping it under wraps until its too late to change things feels absurdly stupid.

If he didn't the air needs to be cleared. This is not the sort of thing to try and ride out when your platform has words dedicated to protecting the marginalized.

EDIT: And I do recognize there is a lot going on right now that makes investigations like this more difficult.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
Before Trump

Healthcare system - garbage
Worker rights - terrible
Foreign policy - trash
Public infrastructure - embarrassing
Inequality - among the highest in highly developed world
Judicial system - elaborating on this will anger me

Reminder that in the '16 election to counter "MAGA", the Democrats thought "Keep America Great" would be a great counter.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
Welcome to life, where your morals and principles will always be tested and cause you to do what most humans have to do... prioritise. What do you prioritise? Well, it's up to anyone as an individual to argue for why they are ignoring or categorising something as less serious/important as something else.

That being said, at no point should it ever be acceptable for anyone in a position of power, such as a politician/leader, to be a rapist. No matter what colours they wear. The argument can probably be made it's even more damaging when the side that is supposed to be something resembling left-wing has a rapist, instead of whatever trash-fire the right is backing without thinking.

The path of "less evil" is never sustainable. It's a carrot and stick kind of poison and America should know that better than anyone given the lack of progress on two of your main issues, healthcare and gun control.

Remember that before Trump was elected other terrors came before him. Bush blew up half the middle east and helped usher in non-stop waves of terrorism into America/Europe, let alone the loss of life of people in those regions. Other people have blocked progress or even reversed it. More will come after him. It's sobering to remember this, but you all must. Because Trump will be out of the White House at some point and that in of itself doesn't instantly mean everything will now be better.

Biden was always a trash candidate/leader for American's futures who want tangible change, but with the way the wind is blowing the electorate have prioritised simply trying to get rid of Trump no matter what.

The UK, more so England, isn't currently doing much better at leading on the forefront of progressive people politics. Grim times all around the world, but it goes without saying potentially being a rapist is far more troublesome than being an ineffectual leader or some of the other issues people can have with politicians. Many politicians aren't good fits to run a sustainable and progressive country, but not all of those who attempt are potentially rapists as well.

There is no perfect person, let alone perfect leader, but the bar should be higher than "hasn't raped someone".

When I first started reading your message, I had the strong impression you were lecturing me, but with the rest of your message, I'm... not sure what your point is? Do we agree or disagree?

Regardless, there is indeed such a thing as standards, and so people will prioritize according to those standards. It's just a disgrace that, for seemingly so many people on the democrat/liberal side, rape allegations - knowing what we know now thanks to #MeToo - don't even clear the bar for dropping a candidate. Even with the coronavirus-induced chaos going on, I find it really hard to justify the so-called 'pragmatic' angle. This should be the point for anyone who actually believes in the "believe women" mantra to seriously question Biden, and not simply go "oh but see, she might be a Russian agent" or "let due process determine his guilt". Like, if the guy wasn't a powerful politician, didn't have a history of creepy behavior and multiple women backing up that notion, then I might understand some caution. But his record doesn't add up. He hasn't earned the goodwill or caution. It's way too believable in his case. Honestly, is anyone surprised by the allegations in any way?

The more cautious/safer assumption here is not "innocent until proven guilty", it's "guilty until proven innocent". Yeah, I know, the US legal system doesn't work like that yadda yadda yadda, and in an ideal world the justice system would have no bias, the process would be perfect and always judge cases accurately and swiftly, and money and power would be of no help if you're guilty... But, the legal system is anything but that. Again, #MeToo provides us with plenty of evidence of the system's sorry state when it comes to rape victims.

dabig2 : thanks for the link. Gotta say I'm not surprised. The more I think about it, the more this denying/downplaying of the allegations sounds like just another manifestation of the Democrats and liberals being so afraid to lose to Republicans (as opposed to having strong principles and being on the right side of history) that they'll defend their fave to the death. Much like when they immediately try and compromise with Republicans because they think that's the way to win. It's spineless at best.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
When I first started reading your message, I had the strong impression you were lecturing me, but with the rest of your message, I'm... not sure what your point is? Do we agree or disagree?

Regardless, there is indeed such a thing as standards, and so people will prioritize according to those standards. It's just a disgrace that, for seemingly so many people on the democrat/liberal side, rape allegations - knowing what we know now thanks to #MeToo - don't even clear the bar for dropping a candidate. Even with the coronavirus-induced chaos going on, I find it really hard to justify the so-called 'pragmatic' angle. This should be the point for anyone who actually believes in the "believe women" mantra to seriously question Biden, and not simply go "oh but see, she might be a Russian agent" or "let due process determine his guilt". Like, if the guy wasn't a powerful politician, didn't have a history of creepy behavior and multiple women backing up that notion, then I might understand some caution. But his record doesn't add up. He hasn't earned the goodwill or caution. It's way too believable in his case. Honestly, is anyone surprised by the allegations in any way?

The more cautious/safer assumption here is not "innocent until proven guilty", it's "guilty until proven innocent". Yeah, I know, the US legal system doesn't work like that yadda yadda yadda, and in an ideal world the justice system would have no bias, the process would be perfect and always judge cases accurately and swiftly, and money and power would be of no help if you're guilty... But, the legal system is anything but that. Again, #MeToo provides us with plenty of evidence of the system's sorry state when it comes to rape victims.

dabig2 : thanks for the link. Gotta say I'm not surprised. The more I think about it, the more this denying/downplaying of the allegations sounds like just another manifestation of the Democrats and liberals being so afraid to lose to Republicans (as opposed to having strong principles and being on the right side of history) that they'll defend their fave to the death. Much like when they immediately try and compromise with Republicans because they think that's the way to win. It's spineless at best.

I agree with you, I was just trying to expand with my own thoughts even although I replied to your post. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer.

With allegations of such a time frame those who immediately go into "innocent until proven guilty" always get a bit of side-eye. Not because people don't deserve to have the capability to defend themselves, but because its often said in bad faith. It's up to Biden to defend himself, other people shouldn't be the defenders of Biden.

Plus whenever we talk about people in positions of power, that always has to be taken into account. Given humanities track record of letting off powerful or rich people due to invested interests. Or letting them carry on for so long people hurt years ago stand next to no chance of beating that "innocent until proven guilty" hard-line. Evidence in rape cases is always difficult, let alone incidents from years ago.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Gotcha, no worries then. It's just the "welcome to life" thing that made your post come off as condescending. Glad we're on the same page.

That was more aimed at the depressing reality of how many other people treat things like this. It's a story as old as time for us now. The prioritise the lesser of evils mantra. We should be able to do better.

It's made even more depressing when you see how many bad faith actors, often right-wing political commentators, who did the "innocent until proven guilty" dance with Trump, yet now go on about how we should always believe women when it's with Biden.

The consistency principle I guess... Are you actually truthful to your words or did you only say whatever you wanted to say at the time to further some sort of goal? Some people can at least be honest about that and will now say unfortunately they're going to back Biden no matter what because of Trump. Others try to have their cake and eat it. That's more what I was getting at.

Difficult to vote shame because there is arguments in favour of voting Blue no matter what (that don't necessarily mean you condone rape), but as I said we should be capable of not having those in positions of power being accused of rape. Not getting over that hurdle is shocking, no matter what way it is approached.

Alex Salmond is the ex-leader of a party I vote for (SNP) who was accused of multiple cases of rape/sexual assault post standing down (he left the party when he failed to win independence for Scotland in 2014). He has just won his trial against all the accusations

Alex Salmond has been acquitted of all charges of sexual assault, a decision that prompted his allies to suggest he had been the victim of a witch-hunt within the Scottish National party.

A jury of eight women and five men at the high court in Edinburgh on Monday found Salmond not guilty of 12 charges of attempted rape, sexual assault and indecent assault after about six hours of deliberations.

They came to the uniquely Scottish verdict of not proven on one charge of sexual assault with intent to rape, after hearing nearly nine days of evidence.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...uitted-of-all-charges-in-sexual-assault-trial

It's quite clear though he's clearly a womanising piece of shit. Just because someone beats all the charges in court doesn't always equal "did nothing". There was signs with Salmond bubbling behind the scenes before the smoke/public accusations, just like there's been a long-lingering issue with Biden and creepiness, that wasn't just right-wing propaganda.

Powerful men who are womanisers/rapists often tend to have things concealed or victims scared to speak out for periods of time. Hence the whole metoo movement rocking the world.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
16,591
the worst thing liberals are doing is making Trump the reason for every issue in the world, like it was heaven on earth before he was elected
This. Fake asses wanna go back to "normalcy" which ain't happening. We need to deal with the disease not the symptoms.

giphy.gif
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
The liberals who make every issue about Trump are most likely privileged white people. For them, the issue isn't that there's inequality but that our President is an international embarrassment and makes all Americans look bad. It's merely the optics rather than say the fact he's building an actual wall or putting people in concentration camps. For me, and I say this as a privileged white person, they need to really reexamine what America is and was to many of its people. One of the best ways to judge a civilization is how it treats its lowest class people, and on that front America has failed since its inception.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
The liberals who make every issue about Trump are most likely privileged white people. For them, the issue isn't that there's inequality but that our President is an international embarrassment and makes all Americans look bad. It's merely the optics rather than say the fact he's building an actual wall or putting people in concentration camps. For me, and I say this as a privileged white person, they need to really reexamine what America is and was to many of its people. One of the best ways to judge a civilization is how it treats its lowest class people, and on that front America has failed since its inception.
While I agree that we don't analyze the issues, the left too falls victim to it.

Too many leftists don't want to admit that racism is a very large factor in our lives. They see the rich and capitalism as the issue; which those both cause issues. Racism is a hellscape all on it's own that is not only institutional but endemic to our species through our hate, tribalism and fear of change/others/difference.

Hell sexism itself is a dividing issue for many. All we can do is try to push to be better and demand better.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
While I agree that we don't analyze the issues, the left too falls victim to it.

Too many leftists don't want to admit that racism is a very large factor in our lives. They see the rich and capitalism as the issue; which those both cause issues. Racism is a hellscape all on it's own that is not only institutional but endemic to our species through our hate, tribalism and fear of change/others/difference.

Hell sexism itself is a dividing issue for many. All we can do is try to push to be better and demand better.
Who are these leftists? Please don't waste my time with random twitter people.

Also I find it pretty odd that in a thread about Biden's rape allegation you come out of nowhere talking about the left and racism, like it has anything to do with it.
I'm gonna clarify that I edited the second part of the post in because when I originally posted I didn't realize we weren't in the primary thrad. It want to reiterate how weird it is to go on this rant here of all places.
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
While I agree that we don't analyze the issues, the left too falls victim to it.

Too many leftists don't want to admit that racism is a very large factor in our lives. They see the rich and capitalism as the issue; which those both cause issues. Racism is a hellscape all on it's own that is not only institutional but endemic to our species through our hate, tribalism and fear of change/others/difference.

Hell sexism itself is a dividing issue for many. All we can do is try to push to be better and demand better.
There are racists everywhere, but if you look at any sort of serious movement or theory that can be described as "leftist", they all not only take racism very seriously, they generally consider it an issue that must be addressed urgently, as it is a huge obstacle to working class solidarity.
The fight for racial equality in the US and most everywhere was always led by people on the left, often by pretty damn radical leftists.
The march on Washington was organized by a bunch of socialists and straight up commies.

People on the left often tend to have different opinions about the causes of racism and about how it should be addressed than liberals, but I don't think it's fair to say that the left ignore or downplay racism.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Who are these leftists? Please don't waste my time with random twitter people.

Also I find it pretty odd that in a thread about Biden's rape allegation you come out of nowhere talking about the left and racism, like it has anything to do with it.
I'm gonna clarify that I edited the second part of the post in because when I originally posted I didn't realize we weren't in the primary thrad. It want to reiterate how weird it is to go on this rant here of all places.
I was responding to that post because it was brought up.

I'll drop it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,242
Seattle
it's two fold.
1. Corona Virus is the story of our life times and rightfully so it takes precedent over anything else.
2. Mainstream outlets won't pull the trigger on this until they do their own investigations and can corroborate themselves. It's taking longer because there is a much bigger and important story out there right now.

Don't mean to down play but currently it's just a fact. COVID-19 and all that is related to it is the story of a generation and anything else will get drowned out until we get to the other side.

edit:
Hopefully when the dust settles on COVID mainstream outlets will be able to dig into it and maybe then we can get a clearer picture on this and let it play out.

I'm curious if the MSM dug into this the first time the allegations came out back in April of 2019, if not, why not.
 
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