YouTube supercut of ALL 3D gameplay in Sonic Forces (minus bosses) - it's 15 minutes long

[A Syrian Communist]

The footage here is my second play-through of the game with all moments where you can't control the character in 3D edited out. Specifically:
- menus/cut-scenes, of course
- classic sonic and 2D sections of the 3D characters
- long automated sequences (the train in that one avatar stage)
- the boss fights, while most are 3D, they are essentially padding and come out as tedious wait-fests.
- the slide, because fuck the slide

All that's left is about 15 minutes of 3D sonic(and avatar). And even then a-lot of this game-play is grinding on solo rails or just boosting straight with little challenge or player input required. And I didn't even take the fastest routes.

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At this point Sonic Forces being a terrible video game is old news. The game came out a few weeks ago, sales seem tepid at best, and it's currently sitting at a 58 on both Opencritic and Metacritic. The reason I'm making this thread is that I feel this video combats the unfortunately popular notion that Sonic "only works in 2D", shifting blame on the franchise's lack of success in 3D on the core tenants of the series' gameplay itself, rather than SEGA's development management and Sonic Team's seeming inability to make a genuinely great video game.

Due to the 2D/3D mixture that Modern Sonic's gameplay has utilized since Unleashed, not a single game in the main series since 2008 has been composed of actual controllable 3D game play for more than 50% of its runtime since 2008. The very short time frame between the critically acclaimed and generally well-liked Sonic Mania, and Sonic Forces, has called into question once again whether or not Sonic "works" in 3D for many, and as someone who believes it can and has been vocally critical of Forces since its initial gameplay reveal, it's still surprising to me that such a small fraction of this already short game is comprised of gameplay segments in which the player can actually utilize the z-axis. I hope this isn't seen as just another thread to shit on Sonic Forces (but by all means, help yourself because it really is awful) but rather a reminder that Sonic's game design difficulties are a little more complex than "it just doesn't work in 3D".

Spoiler

also the physics WACK the story WACK Classic Sonic's gameplay WACK the level design WACK the build-a-bear WACK resistance leader knuckles WACK the music WACK the graphics WACK

Sonic Mania? TIGHT AS FUCK

 

[Indigo Rush]

Yikes.

I think it's telling that Sonic Mania's UFO Special Stages have more meaningful 3D space than anything in Forces, and it's an auto-run bonus game of all things.

Sonic Forces takes the premise of Modern Sonic's boost excursions to their logical extreme, and I'm glad that critics are calling it out now instead of likening it to Generations or Colors like most die-hard Sonic fanboys have been doing leading up to release.

My only hope at this point is that they finish piling the dirt over this gameplay style and rethink their approach to 3D Sonic seriously. Not sure what that'd look like and I'm above quipping the tired "make it like Adventure", but regardless, they should stay far away from this and whatever Lost World was.

 

[Dooble]

The most factually incorrect statements from Sega's PR regarding this game being a '3D game for 3D Sonic fans'. Someone really should just show Iizuka this video. I mean really. However Colors had the same problem

 

[HypedBeast]

Yeah and it's the worse part of every 3D Sonic game.

It's not tight and controlled , it's not challenging, and it's not visually interesting like the rest of the game.

I thought it was terrible in Colors, and in Forces it is just unacceptable how little 3D gameplay there is.

Like imagine if Mario Odyssey had you play New Super Mario Bros for 80% of the game, you'd be fucking pissed.

 

[Betty]

I remember a dev talking about how difficult it was to make these 3D Sonic games because the amount of track you have to create takes ages but can be beaten really quickly thanks to Sonic's speed.

There has to be a solution.

 

[Nocturnowl]

They missed the part where I glitched through the floor of that Classic Sonic Casino Forest stage and could ever so briefly move classic Sonic in sorta 3D, 5 seconds later it life lost me but that was a thing that happened to me.

In the case of Forces though, the 3D movement is so utterly pants that it's for the best.

 

[FSLink]

Just out of curiosity and comparison's sake are there times for Unleashed and Generations 3D Sonic sections?

 

[Stuart]

I still feel no-one has figured out how to make 3D Sonic fun (Lost World came close) so I don't blame them. 2D levels are better.

 

[RockmanBN]

Sure is some mighty fine 3D. 3D is just hallways to boost through.

 

[A Syrian Communist]

I remember a dev talking about how difficult it was to make these 3D Sonic games because the amount of track you have to create takes ages but can be beaten really quickly thanks to Sonic's speed.

There has to be a solution.

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Slow him down, make the level design more vertical, and add other playable characters with similar gameplay but different movesets that allow for a different kind of traversal.

Sonic Adventure was rushed and jagged on the edges but it was the only game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Advance and Mania notwithstanding) to even attempt this, it boggles my mind. SA1 should be a game we look back on and chuckle a bit at how far we've come, not one we wish to go back to.

 

[FSLink]

I still feel no-one has figured out how to make 3D Sonic fun (Lost World came close) so I don't blame them. 2D levels are better.

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I personally felt the Generations 3D gameplay was a step in the right direction, just needed tuning on level design and to have more of it.

 

[Indigo Rush]

There has to be a solution.

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The only thing I could think to do is to slow Sonic down and make the levels themselves more replayable; beyond collectables, but just adding a myriad of extra routes and things to discover. The Genesis games are incredibly short, but the intrinsic value of replaying them to improve completion time or to just explore the levels in different ways has done wonders.

I would play Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles for years and still find secret areas and shortcuts I'd never even knew existed... 20 years later!

This would take a lot of thoughtful design and R&D to pull off effectively, but Sonic Team are a AAA developer, and frankly I don't think they have an excuse.

 

[Normal]

I still feel no-one has figured out how to make 3D Sonic fun (Lost World came close) so I don't blame them. 2D levels are better.

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Nah, Sonic/Shadow stages in Adventure. They're better than the 2D games too.

 

[Dooble]

Just out of curiosity and comparison's sake are there times for Unleashed and Generations 3D Sonic sections?

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Just out of memory, due to playing the games so often, it probably is down to 50/50 in Unleashed because the perspective changes so frequently (I would say it changes every 50 seconds) and there being really no 2d platforming in Unleashed. In Generations, there was a tendency that the 2d section were longer because they made you do some platforming.

 

[Betty]

Slow him down, make the level design more vertical, and add other playable characters with similar gameplay but different movesets that allow for a different kind of traversal.

Sonic Adventure was rushed and jagged on the edges but it was the only game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Advance and Mania notwithstanding) to even attempt this, it boggles my mind. SA1 should be a game we look back on and chuckle a bit at how far we've come, not one we wish to go back to.

Click to shrink...

The only thing I could think to do is to slow Sonic down and make the levels themselves more replayable; beyond collectables, but just adding a myriad of extra routes and things to discover. The Genesis games are incredibly short, but the intrinsic value of replaying them to improve completion time or to just explore the levels in different ways has done wonders.

I would play Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles for years and still find secret areas and shortcuts I'd never even knew existed... 20 years later!

This would take a lot of thoughtful design and R&D to pull off effectively, but Sonic Team are a AAA developer, and frankly I don't think they have a excuse.

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Ha, I just thought of that too. And it is weird how Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 I suppose still feel superior to most other 3D Sonic efforts, except maybe Generations.

 

[FSLink]

Just out of memory, due to playing the games so often, it probably is down to 50/50 in Unleashed because the perspective changes so frequently (I would say it changes every 50 seconds) and there being really no 2d platforming in Unleashed. In Generations, there was a tendency that the 2d section were longer because they made you do some platforming.

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Right, just wanted to know exact numbers though

 

[AfropunkNyc]

you dont truly realize how similar 3d sonic levels seem to be until you sit and watch a video of different levels of the game.

 

[RockmanBN]

Ha, I just thought of that too. And it is weird how Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 I suppose still feel superior to most other 3D Sonic efforts, except maybe Generations.

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Sonic doesn't need to be this fast. He just needs to feel fast. Enemies are boost fodder and are no threat whatsoever. Even comparing enemies from Generations to Forces, the enemies in Forces do nothing but stand there. No animation of attacks compared to Generations.

 

[Arkeband]

2D has always been superior - it is known.

 

[Playco Armboy]

Slow him down, make the level design more vertical, and add other playable characters with similar gameplay but different movesets that allow for a different kind of traversal.
.

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Isn't that what they kinda tried to do with Lost World?

 

[Indigo Rush]

Nah, Sonic/Shadow stages in Adventure. They're better the 2D games too.

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They're definitely fun to speedrun, but SA2's speed levels are left wanting in a few areas, mostly in player agency when traveling at high speeds. The 2D games (and by those, I mean Genesis Sonic specifically) take better advantage of the curvature of the terrain to create an ebb and flow that still depends on the slightest fraction of player input to properly master.

The way platforming blends with speed in, say, Sonic 2, is far more effective since it depends on the player's skill to make strategic jumps to reach shortcuts or find secrets. Aquatic Ruin is a good example of timing jumps with the appropriate momentum to reach different tiers of the level in succession, lest you falter your rhythm and fall into the water. I don't think Adventure 2 has very many instances like this, Final Rush being the star exception with plentiful opportunities to use momentum on rails to find shortcuts or just show off.

I just feel there's less at stake in a 2D environment, initially you're only moving left or right, but the potential for verticality is often underappreciated, and you hardly ever have to worry about falling off the level map like you would in either Adventure game. Later 2D games on the handhelds betray this design philosophy, mind, but I think it's generally agreeable that it's easier to judge your jump arc (especially in relation to speed) on two axes as opposed to three.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Sonic doesn't need to be this fast. He just needs to feel fast. Enemies are boost fodder and are no threat whatsoever. Even comparing enemies from Generations to Forces, the enemies in Forces do nothing but stand there. No animation of attacks compared to Generations.

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I watched the first 5 minutes of this video: I'm not even sure the enemies can respond to sonic based on this footage.

 

[Man God]

Live and learn.

 

[RockmanBN]

I watched the first 5 minutes of this video: I'm not even sure the enemies can respond to sonic based on this footage.

Click to shrink...

 

[Y2Kev]

Why in the world is the ring count so high? In what Sonic game do you end up with 450+ rings?

 

[RagnarokX]

You probably should have edited out the rail grinds, too, since those give even less control than the slide and barely more control than a QTE or cutscene.

The most factually incorrect statements from Sega's PR regarding this game being a '3D game for 3D Sonic fans'. Someone really should just show Iizuka this video. I mean really. However Colors had the same problem

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Nah, this is:

 

[Deleted member 4609]

Why in the world is the ring count so high? In what Sonic game do you end up with 450+ rings?

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There is a trophy/achievement for getting 100k rings. Gotta stretch that playtime in any way possible!

 

[Sou Da]

Why in the world is the ring count so high? In what Sonic game do you end up with 450+ rings?

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Because you can't recover them in this game.

 

[TheCongressman]

I remember a dev talking about how difficult it was to make these 3D Sonic games because the amount of track you have to create takes ages but can be beaten really quickly thanks to Sonic's speed.

There has to be a solution.

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There is. They should stop letting the player gain speed instantly. Make it a reward for using the terrain to gain it. Like how Sonic used to work.

 

[Joltik]

All this is doing is making me want to revisit the first Sonic Adventure after nearly two decades. I just want to confirm that I couldn't have possibly imagined that SA1 had better level design than most of what came after it.

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Forces is more "budget" than I thought.

 

[Deleted member 9971]

Will have the game tommorow, will probably enjoy it in a guilty pleasure like way since i also enjoyed Sonic and the Black Knight, Lost World and Sonic Unleashed Wii version.

I dunno why but i always enjoyed bad games in a guilty pleasure like way, i love Castlevania Lords of Shadow 2 too.

But however i admit that it's sad to see modern sonic sink so low, he was once a rival to Mario now he is laughing stock and a meme. I do really hope Sega tries to find a new dev team or have a serious talk with team sonic.

Honestly it still surprises me they never had a talk with Nintendo and have them develop either a Sonic game in house or do a true cross over game with Mario and Sonic also in house.

Whatever happens next, i hope Forces is the final boost game.

 

[memoryman3]

I remember when Sonic Heroes mixed speed, platforming, combat and level gimmicks onto long 3D stages. Those were the good times.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Click to shrink...

If that not proof to how far the series has regressed then I don't know what to say.

Sonic Force is a lazy, unfocused and soulless mess of a game. It should have never been released in that state.

Nah, this is:

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That still pisses me off as Sega pretty much blatantly lied to the fan base causing me to pretty much write off the series.

I am done with buying future Sonic game, unless they can assure me that its the same level of quality that Unleashed, Generation and Colours got.

 

[KarmaCow]

Maybe I need to replay watch a playthrough of Adventure 2 because it even that "gameplay" is barely more than pressing boost every so often. What a regression.

 

[Currygan]

I remember a dev talking about how difficult it was to make these 3D Sonic games because the amount of track you have to create takes ages but can be beaten really quickly thanks to Sonic's speed.

There has to be a solution.

Click to shrink...

There's no solution, since speed is the essence of Sonic. Either you make trillion km long tracks, or cripple Sonic so he has to limp to the next checkpoint like Yoda

 

[MetalLord]

2d stages in 3d games are disgusting, it never feels right, even in the galaxy games

 

[Xtortion]

Nah, this is:

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This is heinous.

 

[RagnarokX]

There's no solution, since speed is the essence of Sonic. Either you make trillion km long tracks, or cripple Sonic so he has to limp to the next checkpoint like Yoda

Click to shrink...

 

[Xtortion]

RIP Generations level design team. You only needed one more shot to make something truly amazing.

 

[Yoshi]

This is kind of bullshit, to record cut down footage of an arcade style game and saying "hey look, how short it is". Sonic Forces' levels are too easy, sure, but the overall amount of content is fine for an arcade style game, because you are supposed to play the levels several times. I am around half way done with the game and despite the low difficulty, I am greatly enjoying it. For me, it is 36€ very well spent. Also, I definitely do not want future Sonic games to be slower. If anything, make them faster, more intense and less forgiving.

By the way, my playtime according to Xbox One so far is 4 hours and I have not even gone after all the time attack missions for the levels I have played so far - which besides the extra missions are probably the hardest thing in the game.

 

[angel]

The concept has been flawed for 25 years.

edit - this wasnt a drive by, the 2 concepts of sonic (gotta go fast + 3d platforming) are diamatrically opposed. Lost world was probably the best example of a good version.

 

[Aaron]

The 3D levels in Sonic Unleashed were a ton of fun, well-designed with plenty of little secrets and massively replayable. They also had a much more even balance of 2D and 3D segments.

I don't think even Colors or Generations ever met those highs, they're just better received because they're overall more solid games and the level design is competent enough. Forces just continued deteriorating and simplifying.

The concept has been flawed for 25 years.

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What valuable insight. Any other scorching hot takes you want to share? Maybe that Mario games are flawed because the game doesn't always encourage jumping?

 

[qq more]

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God. It's such a shame how much of a step back Forces was. Like.. a real step back in every conceivable way. I miss Generations' level design :(

The concept has been flawed for 25 years.

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Christ, do you people always make such obnoxious driveby posts like this at every opportunity?

 

[TyraZaurus]

That video is kind of disingenous, given Lost Valley is basically a glorified tutorial stage and the Egg Pawns start readily shooting at you in short order.

That being said, the enemies in boost stages generally serve the same purpose as standard soldiers in a musou; they're not there to be a real obstacle, they're there to help full up a gauge.

 

[Machine Law]

Yeah and it's the worse part of every 3D Sonic game.

It's not tight and controlled , it's not challenging, and it's not visually interesting like the rest of the game.

I thought it was terrible in Colors, and in Forces it is just unacceptable how little 3D gameplay there is.

Like imagine if Mario Odyssey had you play New Super Mario Bros for 80% of the game, you'd be fucking pissed.

Click to shrink...

Well the difference is that Sonic is all about going fast, so they have to make these huge levels that are both short and not even fun to play. The whole concept of Sonic's gameplay is just flawed in my opinion.

 

[ThatMeanScene]

I'm not surprised. I'm glad I skipped it.

 

[A Syrian Communist]

Isn't that what they kinda tried to do with Lost World?

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Kind of. Lost World had no secondary playable characters to speak of, and its biggest problem was its boring level design that Sonic couldn't interact with in any meaningful way. His speed is completely static (and too slow, ironically enough) and every almost level feels kind of the same. I find Sonic Adventure 1 and (to a much lesser extent) 2's Sonic gameplay to be more intuitive and replayable than Lost World's for that reason.

 

[VinylCassette64]

Especially hilarious given this is a game that has 30 stages (including boss levels), with most of them being 1-2 minutes long. The estimated time of beating the game without going for 100% completion (not going for the Red Rings/Numbered Rings/Moon Medals/Daily Missions/etc.) is 2-4 hours. So the 3D stages comprise of, what, 1/8th to 1/16th of gameplay for the entire average playthrough. :v

I remember a dev talking about how difficult it was to make these 3D Sonic games because the amount of track you have to create takes ages but can be beaten really quickly thanks to Sonic's speed.

There has to be a solution.

Click to shrink...

Stop pushing the Boost gameplay as a 3D platformer, for starters. For the sake of the fans who enjoy the high-speed thrills that gameplay provides, spin it off into a racing series; but aside from making for really lousy 3D platforming (if it's not an automated / linear sequence, the best it does is stale platform hopping around bottomless pits), that playstyle literally cannot be used to carry an entire 3D Sonic game in the nine years of its existence. Unleashed had the Werehog brawler, Colors had far more 2D gameplay in it as well as the Wisps powerups, Generations had the 2D Classic Sonic, and Forces has both 2D Classic Sonic and the 2D/3D Avatar.

Meanwhile, go back to the drawing board and make a 3D Sonic game that remembers Sonic is actually a platformer first and foremost; and follows the original games philosophy of speed being a trademark, and not the only thing that mattered. When "gots2ta go fdast!!11" was prioritized over everything else in Sonic game design, that ended up not only being largely responsible for the uneven quality for the 3D games, that design mentality overtook the 2D games too and resulted in them gradually sliding down the toilet as well (until Mania put things back on track).

Sega should stop trusting Sonic Team to get it though. Sonic Team needs to go work on almost anything else and get another team of designers to take the reins. Forces feels like a project made by a team who are either apathetic to or are absolutely sick of Sonic by this point, damningly so for a game claimed to have been made over four years.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

At least Roger Craig Smith gets steady work.

 

[~Fake]

Dark1x not joking about this game. Still a big Sonic fan, but man... Sega keep making mistakes. Sonic deserves better love.