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Yu Suzuki/ Sega AM2 -Appreciation Thread
- Thread starter seiki
- Start date
I'm finding as the years go on, Sega's immense contributuons to the gaming landscape are increasingly being forgotten. They were at the forefront of game development and innovation back then, and Suzuki was their equivalent of Miyamoto.
Because arcades are dead.
Most younger gamers have never seen one.
You kind of had to be there to understand.
That's part of it but Sega's console contributions are also being forgotten or dismissed. That's what happens when you have an entire generation grow up with Sega out of the console hardware business.
Every 3DS should have M2's Sega remasters on them but I wonder what the actual sales numbers were like.
Do most gamers care about old games or gaming history?
I am older so I experienced most of this stuff firsthand but I wonder would I give a shit about PacMan fever if I had not been playing it in the early 80s?
Nintendo is really good about their own history but most companies don't even have much of a history. EA owns seemingly most important dead IPs but they don't seem to give two shits.
so...a little drunk, but in my mind, as a fan of both companies, it's hard to not see how sega in the m id to late aughts did suzuki a little like marvel did jack kirby: both men all but built the house, but in their twilight years (while they still wanted to create) both were entirely sidelined. grateful that yu is still with us & kicking but it's gonna be a blemish on sega's overall record down the road.
..how is this even a question? yes, i mean even if we set super scaler tech aside, it broke a lot of new ground
..how is this even a question? yes, i mean even if we set super scaler tech aside, it broke a lot of new ground
I didn't know.
I remember liking the game a lot and thinking the 3D glasses for the Master System looked amazing (better than crappy ones for the NES but we eventually put it away). The gameplay did not feel revolutionary but now I see how it was as per the post below yours.
To this day to this about Yu Suzuki boggle my mind:
1. How this excellent developer didn't get picked up by Nintendo or Sony after Sega went down is beyond me.
2. How Sega managed to incredibly mess up their management of his team and made shitty ports of all of his games and only decided to give him more liberty and hands-on to create his own vision is when they were near bankruptcy.
Imagine how many more ideas for great games we never got to see because of the way Sega managed him and his team.
1. How this excellent developer didn't get picked up by Nintendo or Sony after Sega went down is beyond me.
2. How Sega managed to incredibly mess up their management of his team and made shitty ports of all of his games and only decided to give him more liberty and hands-on to create his own vision is when they were near bankruptcy.
Imagine how many more ideas for great games we never got to see because of the way Sega managed him and his team.
I don't think the big companies want to make the type of games he wants to make.
I also question if the majority of gamers are into those games. I can't see Suzuki making a narrative based game or a shooter (nor would I want to). And Nintendo has carved out their own niche but I am not sure his games fit in with what they do. If any company made sense it would have been Nintendo and its gamers but again I bet neither side was interested enough to make it happen.
Yu Suzuki is kind of an anti-gamer in a lot of ways. Just about any interview with him discussing games is completely fascinating to me because he sees the entire medium in a way different light than any of us ever could.
Like, the reason he wanted to make RPGs is because he thought it was stupid how in them you had to walk up to peoples faces to speak to them. That and how you could just freely walk around their homes uninvited. This is not something anyone here would ever consider strange because we are entrenched in what games have become.
Yu Suzuki's absolutely a genius and I feel his impact on gaming is more significant than even Miyamoto's. A shame people around here mention the likes of Yoko Taro before him in terms of importance nowadays. Hopefully after he finishes up his work on Shenmue III and IV (assuming that is the last one) he can get back to creating new experiences outside of mobile gaming.
Like, the reason he wanted to make RPGs is because he thought it was stupid how in them you had to walk up to peoples faces to speak to them. That and how you could just freely walk around their homes uninvited. This is not something anyone here would ever consider strange because we are entrenched in what games have become.
Yu Suzuki's absolutely a genius and I feel his impact on gaming is more significant than even Miyamoto's. A shame people around here mention the likes of Yoko Taro before him in terms of importance nowadays. Hopefully after he finishes up his work on Shenmue III and IV (assuming that is the last one) he can get back to creating new experiences outside of mobile gaming.
Sony's Playstation 1 and 2 success was built around games that Yu Suzuki excelled at. Arcade racers, Fighting Games, Flying Simulators and later on Playstation's brand also became synonymous with excellent story-driven AAA games and open world games and Yu Suzuki's team was also a pioneer in those types of games.
I feel like the issue is that when Suzuki's team would have benefited Playstation the most Sega was still investing into the Saturn and when Playstation started investing into more ambitious open world games Suzuki's team was already dispersed. I think the biggest reason he wasn't picked up was just the poor timing. He excelled at genres that only reached the peak of their popularity or became viable investments a few years later.
This is the truth. These are some of the few games I always keep on my 3ds home screen.
I meant more so now than during those gens.
No one makes those Sega type games anymore and it's a reason a lot of of us miss that old presence they had.
And since no one makes those type of games (or less often than previously) I wonder if gamers tastes have changed.
How many gamers under 25 have played a Sega console or arcade game?
Sega's arcade productions were amazing. They absolutely blew away Nintendo's home console efforts. I don't think we'll ever have a company produce so many great hits like After Burner, Galaxy Force, Daytona USA, Virtual ON, Virtua Fighter, etc. All of Sega's arcade developers deserve far more credit than what they get.
I do think it's insane we've gone nearly two decades without a Yu Suzuki game and I wish one of the big developers had given him free reign to continue to create, but I can see why it might've been a risky proposition. He creates what he wants, without boundaries, and doesn't seem to have much interest in appealing to the market or commercial success. This is a man that made a hardcore Ferrari simulator for arcades, an action adventure series that included your character stacking boxes in a forklift and airing out books, among other things.
In a just world he would've made twice as many games as he has, but I guess he's just too ambitious for this world.
In a just world he would've made twice as many games as he has, but I guess he's just too ambitious for this world.
It's not as if there was no one after him at Sega to continue to make games. There was a generation of developers before Yu Suzuki at Sega that created arcade games. At least that is Sega's reasoning.
I'm playin outrun right now. Well I'm playing the outrun machines inside Yakuza 0. I can hardly tear myself away I've been playing for almost an hour.
I was playing road redemption on Friday, and I noted there wasn't much to the driving. Outrun might seem simple but it has incredible driving. It puts road redemption and many others to shame in this regard.
Anyone looking to make an arcade driving game should play outrun. It's genius. The way you turn in fast, and you have to keep the wheel turned and feather the throttle to keep the car stable and squeeze beside trucks. The way you have to slow down to go fast sometimes, or check your speed and sacrifice some time in situations where you don't think you can make it. Even the feeling of pulling a long gear vs a short gear.
Outrun, baby.
I was playing road redemption on Friday, and I noted there wasn't much to the driving. Outrun might seem simple but it has incredible driving. It puts road redemption and many others to shame in this regard.
Anyone looking to make an arcade driving game should play outrun. It's genius. The way you turn in fast, and you have to keep the wheel turned and feather the throttle to keep the car stable and squeeze beside trucks. The way you have to slow down to go fast sometimes, or check your speed and sacrifice some time in situations where you don't think you can make it. Even the feeling of pulling a long gear vs a short gear.
Outrun, baby.
Yu Suzuki to me is possibly the greatest game creator in the industry. His creations span multiple genres, and often top those genres. Look at OutRun for arcade racers, look at Virtua Fighter, still considered the pinnacle of fighting games by many (even Street Fighter's Ono said VF is the 'Gold Standard' by which other fighters are measured).
Not only are his software creations genuinely some of the best ever, but even his hardware innovations were incredible. Arcade machine experiences, arcade boards, he truly is an amazing creator. Arcades, and Sega, would not be the same without Hang-On and it's incredible control system.
As for AM2, well even their non Yu Suzuki titles, like Daytona, were all incredibly high quality. I could wax on about it all day and night, but there is really is no way I can see it other than they created some of the best video games of all time.
As Virtua Sanus said, his insight into gaming is so wonderful. I absolutely adore that when he creates a game he doesn't look to other games to see what they are doing, but takes inspiration from everything else instead. When everyone is trying to be the same, he's trying to do something completely different.
I still have a lot of his games to re-visit. While I grew up on a healthy diet of VF, Shenmue and Daytona as AM2 games, I really want to go back and play more original OutRun (most of my game time for that series is from the XBLA release and a bit of 2) and Hang-On. Power Drift would be great as well!
Not only are his software creations genuinely some of the best ever, but even his hardware innovations were incredible. Arcade machine experiences, arcade boards, he truly is an amazing creator. Arcades, and Sega, would not be the same without Hang-On and it's incredible control system.
As for AM2, well even their non Yu Suzuki titles, like Daytona, were all incredibly high quality. I could wax on about it all day and night, but there is really is no way I can see it other than they created some of the best video games of all time.
As Virtua Sanus said, his insight into gaming is so wonderful. I absolutely adore that when he creates a game he doesn't look to other games to see what they are doing, but takes inspiration from everything else instead. When everyone is trying to be the same, he's trying to do something completely different.
I still have a lot of his games to re-visit. While I grew up on a healthy diet of VF, Shenmue and Daytona as AM2 games, I really want to go back and play more original OutRun (most of my game time for that series is from the XBLA release and a bit of 2) and Hang-On. Power Drift would be great as well!
I understand, but I don't think Sega or many other companies would want to spend millions on another semi truck arcade game or a Ferrari simulator. I don't think he's the sort of creator who is willing to make games on commission so he'd be a bit of a loose cannon in this day and age. That's why I love him. I wish someone with a lot of money believed in him... believe me.
Then again, the story is that whatever money Sega might've lost on Shenmue they made up with Virtua Fighter so they they kind of fucked him.
Those big simulators weren't a Suzuki thing necesarily. They were a Sega wide thing for a while (Airline Pilots, Sega Bass Fishing). Coincidentally, the executives at Sega that approved many of Yu's ideas weren't around either. That might be a reason.
Yu Suzuki rocked the mid-80s to late-90s. My jaw is still on the floor everytime I see the sprite-scaling Space Harrier and Power Drift Deluxe cabinets. Outruns soundtrack is timeless, whilst Virtua Fighter 2's movement is still as majestic today. An earlier post is spot-on, saying he was always thinking in 3D.
I'd love to see a VR project from the legend.
I'd love to see a VR project from the legend.
I don't know if AM2 was God, what I know for sure is that Outrun is godly.
Seriously everybody with true love for the medium should buy and play the 3D remake on 3DS done by M2.
Not many.
Sega stopped producing consoles 17 years ago which was roughly the same time arcades began to die outside Japan.
Another sad thing is that even on Sega-centric forums Sega's arcade legacy is often an after thought compared to their console games which is baffling to say the least.
Nintendo cannot maintain every IPs they have only through internal developers, they are aided by a bunch of smaller japanese studios (and sometime non japanese too like Next Level Games and Mercury Steam).
The studios founded by key figure behind Gambare Goemon manages the Yoshi IP (and previously were handed the Warioland and Kirby IPs), the studios founded by key figure behind the Mana series handles the Zelda renakes, the studios founded by key figure behind Super Mario RPG manages the Mario & Luigi RPG series, the studios formed by ex-Hudson staff manages the Mario Party IPs and so on (Itagaki's Valallha developing the Nintendo funded Momotaro Dentetsu is probably the funniest match).
AM2 were the Kings of the Cabinet and it's a crime that their contribution to gaming isn't better appreciated. Yu Suzuki absolutely deserves the title of "visionary", he's a true master.
Honestly I think the reason he never moved onto other publishers is because he wanted to keep the strong bond with SEGA so he could one day return to Shenmue. That series means everything to him.
I recall hearing that him and Yuji Naka got into quite a nasty fight about it. Naka blamed that him leaving arcades is what really sunk SEGA. The sad thing is I think he is not completely wrong there. Could you imagine if he was making AfterBurner and OutRun tier hits in the arcades in the late 90s and early 2000s? It would have been a way different world.
I recall hearing that him and Yuji Naka got into quite a nasty fight about it. Naka blamed that him leaving arcades is what really sunk SEGA. The sad thing is I think he is not completely wrong there. Could you imagine if he was making AfterBurner and OutRun tier hits in the arcades in the late 90s and early 2000s? It would have been a way different world.
god, i'm still salty we only got volume 1 - wish the import for the triple pack was cheaper, but then i'd have to look into hacking my 3DS as well.
well, the consoles were a lot more approachable though...to this day, i'm still trying to play more of their arcade classics. i really should just give up & MAME them, but the local arcade here just added Sonic Arcade & Moonwalker, and that's where i finally played Plant Harriers!
Hmm, I don't know. Sega was still producing some great arcade titles in the late nineties and early 2000s. Don't forget that's the era that VF3 came out, then VF4, OutRun 2 etc.
It's not like his legacy wasn't still in the arcades and releasing amazing titles.
None of those were anywhere close to the phenomenons that AfterBurner and OutRun were though. He did not have as much of a hand in Vitua Fighter 4 or OutRun 2 either.
I imagine arcades were sorta past the point of return either way, but I can see where Yuji Naka was coming from. Especially as the time, effort and cash that went into Shenmue could have theoretically made at least a dozen or more arcade titles.
They are rather minor devs imo..Sega also recruited alot of devs in that vein.
Still sad Power Drift 3D was never released separately (and that M2 didn't do 3DS versions of Virtua Fighter and Racer like they'd thought about/teased)
As Director:
Champion Boxing (1984)
Champion Pro Wrestling (1985)
Hang-On (1985)
Space Harrier (1985)
Out Run (1986)
Enduro Racer (1986)
After Burner (1987)
Power Drift (1988)
G-LOC: Air Battle (1990)
Virtua Racing (1992)
Virtua Fighter (1993)
Virtua Cop (1994)
Virtua Fighter 2 (1994)
Virtua Fighter 3 (1996)
Ferrari F355 Challenge (1999)
Shenmue (1999)
Shenmue II (2001)
SEGA Race TV (2008)
Shenmue III (2019)
(I've read conflicting things about his involvement in Virtua Cop so not 100% sure if he actually designed/directed that one...)
Champion Boxing (1984)
Champion Pro Wrestling (1985)
Hang-On (1985)
Space Harrier (1985)
Out Run (1986)
Enduro Racer (1986)
After Burner (1987)
Power Drift (1988)
G-LOC: Air Battle (1990)
Virtua Racing (1992)
Virtua Fighter (1993)
Virtua Cop (1994)
Virtua Fighter 2 (1994)
Virtua Fighter 3 (1996)
Ferrari F355 Challenge (1999)
Shenmue (1999)
Shenmue II (2001)
SEGA Race TV (2008)
Shenmue III (2019)
(I've read conflicting things about his involvement in Virtua Cop so not 100% sure if he actually designed/directed that one...)
That would be a ridiculous statement if true.
The Consumer Business (consoles) is what brought down Sega.
Arcades division could not offset the losses caused by console segment floundering.
They are all small developers but it's not like Ys Net is big.
What I meant to highlight is that Nintendo uses a bunch of external japanese developers for their franchises with minor priority and usually they are chosen for the past console works they did (and if there are similarities with the Nintendo IP that need to be externally managed).
For example it made perfectly sense for Nintendo to let Nagoshi/Amusement Vision develop F-Zero GX (too bad it was the last F-Zero on home console).
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The thing is, if they were big arcade hits like Daytona USA they would have been ported and done well on Dreamcast or Saturn.
Naka seemed a bit clueless/delirious of the situation though.
https://www.technobuffalo.com/2017/04/12/peter-more-sega-fading-yuji-naka/
True, the money for Shenmue could have gone to a lot of other projects. I think Sega was banking on making it a 'Final Fantasy' system seller, that they could then make a dozen sequels to over the course of the next several years. If it had paid off, then it would have worked for them.
Maybe they really wanted to focus on winning back console market rather than arcades where they felt they had a stable output and income?
Would have been cool to see what else he could have made in the arcades too, of course!
Some of those weren't his ideas but he produced them.
As for you himself I really think he's over praised.
Games like outrun are praised when it was still stuck in the pole position racing style of restricted track movement while everyone else was trying to move forward by having actual open driving on the road as well as 3D polygons. Mean time, it took till 1992 for Virtua Racing to come out and most Sega racers in between played the same way.
I could say the same for space harrier partially as well.
As for Shenmue it was outclassesd massively the same year it came out by a PC game, game quality opinions aside. Nothing about Shenmue needed all that money. Horrible management on that.
But one thing I always didn't get is why people act like Shenmue was the first open game when it was nothing but linear roads and corners.
I think the above games are fun though (except Shenmue though it's fun to laugh at with friends) so don't think I don't like the games, I do.
As for you himself I really think he's over praised.
Games like outrun are praised when it was still stuck in the pole position racing style of restricted track movement while everyone else was trying to move forward by having actual open driving on the road as well as 3D polygons. Mean time, it took till 1992 for Virtua Racing to come out and most Sega racers in between played the same way.
I could say the same for space harrier partially as well.
As for Shenmue it was outclassesd massively the same year it came out by a PC game, game quality opinions aside. Nothing about Shenmue needed all that money. Horrible management on that.
But one thing I always didn't get is why people act like Shenmue was the first open game when it was nothing but linear roads and corners.
I think the above games are fun though (except Shenmue though it's fun to laugh at with friends) so don't think I don't like the games, I do.
The reason why Outrun is praised to heaven is because it uses the drive forward formula with the usual raster trick for the road and combine it with the scaling effects to get a fluid and fast driving experience.
On top of the technical merits there is a very good package of graphics, sounds and playability.
It's the flawless execution that garner the game all the praise (and the fact it was a widespread and popular arcade machine).
On top of the technical merits there is a very good package of graphics, sounds and playability.
It's the flawless execution that garner the game all the praise (and the fact it was a widespread and popular arcade machine).
I haven't played much that the man is responsible for admittedly, but I'll always have undying adoration for him based purely on Shenmue 1 and 2 alone. Those two games have left an indelible impression on me that can never be erased.
I'd rather have companies waste money on him than on Kojima
Not really.
It's more that Sega stopped making consoles so the winners and the winners fans can reshape the narrative.
Same thing happened to Atari.
You are right but it's both. Sega was just as big in arcades if not bigger than they were in the console market.
If you started gaming after the Dreamcast (probably the majority of gamers) you never got to see their best stuff.