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OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
After playing Primer Mover for several hours, I have found it to be a very nice addition to the genre, but also one of the harder examples. As Tim indicates, the puzzles in this game are a lot like Human Resource Machine (manipulation of numbers in physical space), but unlike Human Resource Machine it is also a game where physical space is extremely important. Not only do you have less workspace than SpaceChem, but also have to deal with connections that take up physical space like Shenzhen I/O.

The choice of components themselves also feel somewhat unusual, which makes for some interesting challenges. For example, there is a 3-way component for sorting positive, negative, and zero values, but since it is a 3-way component (and not a component with 1 input and 3 outputs), you have to combine it with other components if you need to sort all 3 types of values, since at least one type of value will be sent back where it came from. The game also has a generic "switch" component, which toggles a neighboring component in some way, allowing you to (un)lock, unlock, flip, or rotate affected components depending on their function. You can also create your own components, but unfortunately that functionality is rather painful to use in practice.

That pain is also one of the reasons why I have to disagree that the UI is necessarily much better than Human Resource Machine. Like that game, the UI in Prime Mover suffers once you have to work on more complicated problems.

For one thing, the cursor in Primer Mover functions as a paintbrush that places the same component over and over again as long as you keep "painting" in empty cells. However, it is rare that I wish to place multiple of the same type of component (excepting basic paths), so I end up having to swap back and forth anyway. But because cursor functions as a brush means that there is simple drag and drop, and cutting/pasting requires you to first select the entry for that functionality on the component bar. I mostly found it easier to simply re-draw small sections I was working on as opposed to cutting and pasting them. And since there is only cut-and-paste, a common work-flow is 1) select cut/paste, 2) cut region, 3) CTRL+Z to undo cut, 4) paste region wherever else I need it. All of this honestly feels archaic, and not in a good way.

As far as I can tell the game also lacks any ability to place breakpoints of any sort, which makes solving issues that arise late in a task difficult to dissect. The game does have the ability to single-step through solutions, but that is a very slow process. There is also just two run speeds, normal and accelerating, the second of which starts out somewhat faster and slowly accelerates. While the solution speeding up does look cool, it just ends up wasting your time as you iterate on long-running solutions.

The game also give you the ability to create custom components, which would in theory remove the space constraints. But a number of flaws makes it rather painful to actually use custom components: 1) Every custom components is visually indistinguishable until you start editing them, and there is no indication of which edges are connected on components. Needless to say, this makes keeping track of what a given components does difficult. 2) There is no way to save and reuse designs outside of cut/paste. 3) No drag and drop combined with indistinguishable components makes moving custom components around an error prone process. 4) Each custom component has the same surface area as a full puzzle (8x8), meaning that they typically come with a significant cost due to all the empty space values have to traverse within the component.

This has resulted in me using custom chips only as a last resort when working on an initial solution and running out of space. I suspect that custom components will be a necessity in later puzzles, and I am frankly not looking forward to that.

But despite these complaints it is still a game that I am greatly enjoying banging my head against, and one that I would recommend to fans of the genre.
 
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hoffgame

Member
May 6, 2018
5
After playing Primer Mover for several hours, I have found it to be a very nice addition to the genre, but also one of the harder examples. As Tim indicates, the puzzles in this game are a lot like Human Resource Machine (manipulation of numbers in physical space), but unlike Human Resource Machine it is also a game where physical space is extremely important. Not only do you have less workspace than SpaceChem, but also have to deal with connections that take up physical space like Shenzhen I/O.

The choice of components themselves also feel somewhat unusual, which makes for some interesting challenges. For example, there is a 3-way component for sorting positive, negative, and zero values, but since it is a 3-way component (and not a component with 1 input and 3 outputs), you have to combine it with other components if you need to sort all 3 types of values, since at least one type of value will be sent back where it came from. The game also has a generic "switch" component, which toggles a neighboring component in some way, allowing you to (un)lock, unlock, flip, or rotate affected components depending on their function. You can also create your own components, but unfortunately that functionality is rather painful to use in practice.

That pain is also one of the reasons why I have to disagree that the UI is necessarily much better than Human Resource Machine. Like that game, the UI in Prime Mover suffers once you have to work on more complicated problems.

For one thing, the cursor in Primer Mover functions as a paintbrush that places the same component over and over again as long as you keep "painting" in empty cells. However, it is rare that I wish to place multiple of the same type of component (excepting basic paths), so I end up having to swap back and forth anyway. But because cursor functions as a brush means that there is simple drag and drop, and cutting/pasting requires you to first select the entry for that functionality on the component bar. I mostly found it easier to simply re-draw small sections I was working on as opposed to cutting and pasting them. And since there is only cut-and-paste, a common work-flow is 1) select cut/paste, 2) cut region, 3) CTRL+Z to undo cut, 4) paste region wherever else I need it. All of this honestly feels archaic, and not in a good way.

As far as I can tell the game also lacks any ability to place breakpoints of any sort, which makes solving issues that arise late in a task difficult to dissect. The game does have the ability to single-step through solutions, but that is a very slow process. There is also just two run speeds, normal and accelerating, the second of which starts out somewhat faster and slowly accelerates. While the solution speeding up does look cool, it just ends up wasting your time as you iterate on long-running solutions.

The game also give you the ability to create custom components, which would in theory remove the space constraints. But a number of flaws makes it rather painful to actually use custom components: 1) Every custom components is visually indistinguishable until you start editing them, and there is no indication of which edges are connected on components. Needless to say, this makes keeping track of what a given components does difficult. 2) There is no way to save and reuse designs outside of cut/paste. 3) No drag and drop combined with indistinguishable components makes moving custom components around an error prone process. 4) Each custom component has the same surface area as a full puzzle (8x8), meaning that they typically come with a significant cost due to all the empty space values have to traverse within the component.

This has resulted in me using custom chips only as a last resort when working on an initial solution and running out of space. I suspect that custom components will be a necessity in later puzzles, and I am frankly not looking forward to that.

But despite these complaints it is still a game that I am greatly enjoying banging my head against, and one that I would recommend to fans of the genre.

Wow! Thank you for maybe the most useful feedback we have gotten so far, it's all really good! We are currently pretty close to our first patch that addresses some of the problems you have mentioned : ) Thank you very much for helping us improve Prime Mover!
 

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
I've been enjoying Prime Mover a lot. Just finished up the reverse, maximization, and inversion problems last night. The limitations this game puts on you are really weird and interesting to try to work around.

Two questions for anyone else who has been playing it:

1. What's up with the reorder problem? I'm looking at the first batch of inputs and I don't get how the input is actually supposed to match with the output. Like, if I go by 1-2-3 or 3-2-1 the output will still be wrong. I feel like I'm missing something incredibly obvious here.
2. What kind of solution did you come up with for the reverse problem? My solution was super awkward and slow, and judging by the histogram, I was way off from an ideal approach.
I created a loop that served as a buffer, then delayed inputs so that new entries into the buffer would come in just before the existing elements finished a loop, then when a zero came along I would empty out the buffer. It was really slow, since I had to space things out based on the size of the buffer, which ended up needing to be really large.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
Wow! Thank you for maybe the most useful feedback we have gotten so far, it's all really good! We are currently pretty close to our first patch that addresses some of the problems you have mentioned : ) Thank you very much for helping us improve Prime Mover!
I've been busy with other things, but I saw that you released a patch on May 31st, that among other things addressed a bunch of my complaints. Thank you, I'm looking forward to diving back in!


I've been enjoying Prime Mover a lot. Just finished up the reverse, maximization, and inversion problems last night. The limitations this game puts on you are really weird and interesting to try to work around.

Two questions for anyone else who has been playing it:

1. What's up with the reorder problem? I'm looking at the first batch of inputs and I don't get how the input is actually supposed to match with the output. Like, if I go by 1-2-3 or 3-2-1 the output will still be wrong. I feel like I'm missing something incredibly obvious here.
2. What kind of solution did you come up with for the reverse problem? My solution was super awkward and slow, and judging by the histogram, I was way off from an ideal approach.
I created a loop that served as a buffer, then delayed inputs so that new entries into the buffer would come in just before the existing elements finished a loop, then when a zero came along I would empty out the buffer. It was really slow, since I had to space things out based on the size of the buffer, which ended up needing to be really large.
I haven't gotten around to the Reorder problem, but I did eventually manage to solve Reverse in a reasonable time (207 ticks):
I used a stretch of arrows to create a buffer and then rotated the arrows to release the input in the correct order. Another 3 rotations was performed to reset the buffer:



EDIT:
Looked at the Reorder problem, and it seems reasonable to me.
The first A inputs 6, 2, 3 and the B inputs are 3, 1, 2. The expected outputs are 3, 6, 2.
That matches the value from B, where the first B value specifies the 3rd A value (3), the second B value specifies the first A value (6), and the third B value specifies the second A value (2).

However, this puzzle was apparently updated in the last patch to avoid confusion, so make sure that you have the latest version of PM.
 
Last edited:

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
Wow, yeah, that's a much more elegant solution than the nightmare I built. I hadn't thought of deliberately dead-ending the inputs to make a buffer.
fb6e4c0bdd.jpg

Slightly less efficient.

And thanks for the explanation of reorder. I kept trying to parse 6-2-3 and 3-1-2 as 6 going in the third spot, 2 going in the first spot, and 3 going in the second spot. It makes perfect sense now, and I'm not sure why I couldn't grasp it last night.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
7 Billion Humans, the sequel to Human Resource Machine, is available for pre-order for $15 at the developer's website, though there is still no release date that I can see:
https://tomorrowcorporation.com/7billionhumans

You can also sign up for a chance at getting to beta-test the game if you pre-order:
ATTENTION HUMANS.
Our upcoming game 7 Billion Humans has just been made available for pre-order over here!

And as we've done with previous games, we will select a few lucky beta testers from among the group of pre-orders. Want to be a beta tester? To help Betty the Beta Bot select the first few rounds of beta testers, PLEASE CHOOSE WISELY:

CHOICE 1: I pre-ordered 7 Billion Humans and would like to help beta test it! I understand that not everyone who fills out this survey can be selected, and that beta testing involves playing something that is not 100% ready, but I want to do it anyway!

CHOICE 2: Please tell me how to pre-order so I can click the first option!

CHOICE 3: I feel emotionally distressed, since neither of the above links apply to my specific situation, but I want to feel like I'm part of something anyway.

Love,
Betty the Beta Management Bot
https://tomorrowcorporation.com/posts/pre-order-and-beta-volunteers-for-7-billion-humans
 

1upsuper

Member
Jan 30, 2018
5,489
I only discovered Zachtronic games last year but I've played a bunch now and love them. Opus Magnum is probably favorite so far but I have yet to play Infinifactory or Shenzhen I/O.

Also Prime Mover is great too. Definitely worth a play if you like these games.
 

Dreenk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
490


I still haven't gone back to finish Shenzhen, or Opus... what an embarrassment of riches Zachtronics doth bestow upon us.
 

Mugen

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,440
Stockholm, Sweden
Crap. Why August, I have already ordered some big ones for then and have no money left. :( And I have yet to finish TIS-100 and even play Shenzhen I/O. Have the LE of the latter and it is pretty cool. The new Exapunks LE looks well worth its price though.
 

Dreenk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
490
Crap. Why August, I have already ordered some big ones for then and have no money left. :( And I have yet to finish TIS-100 and even play Shenzhen I/O. Have the LE of the latter and it is pretty cool. The new Exapunks LE looks well worth its price though.
I feel dumb and bad for getting the Shenzhen LE and not yet having gotten far enough in to even unseal the envelope...

On the other hand, the Zachtronics LEs are probably the only ones that are gameplay relevant on top of being cool to have!
 

kami_sama

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,004
Dammit, I need it now!
Btw, here is the physical thingies, the Zine is awesome and of pretty high quality.
PsAjEcu.png
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Exapunks feels like a more-accessible story-driven successor to TIS and Shenzhen in the same way that Infinifactory and Opus felt like more accessible successors to SpaceChem
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,629
I forgot that was coming out soon. Human Resource Machine (and their previous games) was pretty good.
 

CvxFous

Member
Feb 17, 2019
5
Hey you beautiful people !
I've been following this thread for a while now, both because I love zachlikes and because I'm actually developing one !

May I present you to Monster Logic, a zachlike game based the 2D and 3D languages Befunge and Trefunge:



I really hope you'll all like it as much as I do.
 

CvxFous

Member
Feb 17, 2019
5
The game is still ongoing, 8 more level to be fully done with the content, will be able to deliver an actual release date soon :)
 

Zaubrer

Member
Oct 16, 2018
1,394
Got TIS-100 on sale on Steam, because it was so cheap. I played a tiny little bit of Opus Magnum before. Is TIS-100 a good start to delve into those kind of games or is it too hard?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
The game is still ongoing, 8 more level to be fully done with the content, will be able to deliver an actual release date soon :)
That's great to hear!


Got TIS-100 on sale on Steam, because it was so cheap. I played a tiny little bit of Opus Magnum before. Is TIS-100 a good start to delve into those kind of games or is it too hard?
TIS-100 is pretty hardcore, since you are just writing code with no abstractions on top, but it is also a fantastic game.
If you have any previous programming experience then it should be pretty easy to get started, but if you have no such prior experience then you can expect a steep learning curve.

If you are interested in getting into the more code-heavy games in this genre (TIS-100, Shenzhen I/O, Exapunks, etc.), then you might find Human Resource Machine to be a smoother introduction. It also purely about coding, but it is designed to be much more approachable and spends more time easing you into the concepts. It is also currently on sale on GOG. But if you'd rather have something like Opus Magnum, then Space Chem is a great alternative. Opus Magnum itself is of course also a great introduction into side of the genre that doesn't involve writing actual code.
 

Zaubrer

Member
Oct 16, 2018
1,394
If you are interested in getting into the more code-heavy games in this genre (TIS-100, Shenzhen I/O, Exapunks, etc.), then you might find Human Resource Machine to be a smoother introduction. It also purely about coding, but it is designed to be much more approachable and spends more time easing you into the concepts. It is also currently on sale on GOG. But if you'd rather have something like Opus Magnum, then Space Chem is a great alternative. Opus Magnum itself is of course also a great introduction into side of the genre that doesn't involve writing actual code.
Already played quite some Human Resource Machine on mobile. Guess I should finally try to finish it. Then I'll see if I can get my hands on Opus Magnum soon, because Space Chem is already in my Steam library (I think from a super old Humble Bundle). Thanks for the guidance!
 

tinbonk

Member
Jul 13, 2019
6
Me and a few guys from the Zachtronics discord are trying to make Zach-like a legit tag on Steam. Since tags are user defined, if enough people do it then it will become a real tag.

I think these games are unique enough that a tag is justified, and it would be a big help for newcomers to the genre to find similar titles if they can just click a tag on Steam and have them all pop up.

If you guys would like to help it would be greatly appreciated. We're tagging with "Zach-like", rather than zachlike, to keep it consistent with Steam's Rogue-like and Souls-like tags (and also because that's how Zach spelled it in his book).
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
Me and a few guys from the Zachtronics discord are trying to make Zach-like a legit tag on Steam. Since tags are user defined, if enough people do it then it will become a real tag.

I think these games are unique enough that a tag is justified, and it would be a big help for newcomers to the genre to find similar titles if they can just click a tag on Steam and have them all pop up.

If you guys would like to help it would be greatly appreciated. We're tagging with "Zach-like", rather than zachlike, to keep it consistent with Steam's Rogue-like and Souls-like tags (and also because that's how Zach spelled it in his book).
Great initiative.
I've gone ahead and tagged all the Zach-likes that I am aware of.
 

Zaubrer

Member
Oct 16, 2018
1,394
Me and a few guys from the Zachtronics discord are trying to make Zach-like a legit tag on Steam. Since tags are user defined, if enough people do it then it will become a real tag.

I think these games are unique enough that a tag is justified, and it would be a big help for newcomers to the genre to find similar titles if they can just click a tag on Steam and have them all pop up.

If you guys would like to help it would be greatly appreciated. We're tagging with "Zach-like", rather than zachlike, to keep it consistent with Steam's Rogue-like and Souls-like tags (and also because that's how Zach spelled it in his book).
great idea, tagged a few of them as well.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
Would Automachef count as a Zach-like?

I've played a bit of the demo and while it certainly has aspects of a Zachlike it also seems to be missing what I consider important parts of a Zachlike, namely the part where you iterate on your solution and try to improve on performance metrics. You can do it, but there is no easy way to compare your current solution's performance with past performance (other than meeting or not meeting the level requirements), and there is seemingly no comparison with the solutions of other players. It also does some really annoying things, such as placing everything behind drop-down menus, having weird defaults (e.g. doing an action upon receiving input defaults to doing it 3 times), and having a needlessly long delay between your simulation starting and orders (input) arriving, because the game wants to show sims ordering food. The control logic that you have access to is also a lot simpler, but that may simply reflect how early I am in the game.

Based on what I've played, I think this game is more heavily inspired by games such as Big Pharma and Factorio, than Zachlikes, and while this seems to be a pretty interesting game, it does not scratch that specific itch for me.


EDIT: It apparently also doesn't automatically save your solutions when you've completed a stage, which is a huge WTF.
 
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CvxFous

Member
Feb 17, 2019
5
Hey y'all. I'm close to finish on my game Monster Logic that's listed here, but I may need more outside tester (outside of my inner circles of friends and collegues) to test it.Is anyone here willing to do it? Game is available on Windows and Linux, Mac port soon-ish.

Also if anyone is speaking a language other than English, French, Portuguese and Chinese and want to help translate the game, it can be of help too :)

If you're interested, send me a PM here.

Thanks a lot !
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
Zachtronics just released MOLEK-SYNTEZ into early access, seemingly out of nowhere:


I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet, but so far it seems like a really interesting combination of elements of TIS-100, SpaceChem, and Opus Magnum.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
There's also this zach-like (self-proclaimed) Neon Noodles. Early Access release in late Nov, but has an open beta on Steam

 

Matttimeo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
762
Trust my computer being out the house as the same week that a new Zack game come out. Have to enjoy it next week at the earliest. If Molek is anything like Opus Magnum then I will be a happy boy, that was a great game.
 

slothrop

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,877
USA
Been out of the game too long, but I finally picked up Shenzhen again. I had bought the special edition, what, 4 years ago when it launched. I have this unopened secret envelope in that big red binder taunting me... Relearned enough to finish 4 more puzzles this weekend and it looks like I have 3 or 4 left to compete the campaign. I don't have a clue how I'm going to do this cocktail one šŸ˜¬
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770