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How do you view the new Nintendo Switch model in terms of a hardware upgrade?

  • As a mid-gen refresh (e.g. Xbox One S → Xbox One X, etc.)

    Votes: 114 48.7%
  • As an iterative successor (e.g. iPhone 11 → iPhone 12, etc.)

    Votes: 120 51.3%

  • Total voters
    234
  • Poll closed .

Falcato

Member
Nov 2, 2017
239
Quick question, tensor cores can process any AI program, correct? Could you improve enemy AI with a proper AI algorithm and run it through the GPU, so you can get super "intelligent" enemies and NPCs?

Instead of running DLSS?
Tensor cores are simply ALUs to accelerate a specific type of low precision operations, and one of the main applications that can use these is Machine Learning inference.
Anything that can be expressed in terms of an ML problem can be accelerated (or anything that can still compute something useful with the limited precision of these ALUs really).
NPCs behaviour is one of them, albeit there are many reasons why this won't probably happen, and they are all related to design.
NPCs in games are dumb not because we can't do better, but because there are design reasons for them to be "dumb" and limited.

Sorry for the late reply, but GMT has a really nice video about good AI in games, and to sum it up it isn't just a technical problem but also a design problem. As Corralx said an AI accelerator won't give you better AI just by being there, but maybe it could give you more instances of good performing AI (= more enemies).


 

Alovon11

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,125
I don't think there's NO chance. I just don't think they will
Honestly, I say if they could update XBC:DE with DLSS.etc they should be able to at least update Torna along with it (As XBC:DE and Torna run the same rendering engine with very little differences between the two versions based on dev interviews.).

As for XBC2, that is more tricky as it is an older version of the renderer as they stated they did do notable changes to the rendering engine between XBC2 and XBC2: Torna.
 

Kahhhhyle

Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,175
Honestly, I say if they could update XBC:DE with DLSS.etc they should be able to at least update Torna along with it (As XBC:DE and Torna run the same rendering engine with very little differences between the two versions based on dev interviews.).

As for XBC2, that is more tricky as it is an older version of the renderer as they stated they did do notable changes to the rendering engine between XBC2 and XBC2: Torna.
That's interesting to me. I always think of Torna as DLC, but I guess since it's really like its own separate game it shouldn't be that shocking... I would have just assumed they were pretty much the same underlying tech.
 

Alovon11

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,125
That's interesting to me. I always think of Torna as DLC, but I guess since it's really like its own separate game it shouldn't be that shocking... I would have just assumed they were pretty much the same underlying tech.
They are technically the same rendering engine, it's just like if the XBC2 Renderer is 1.0, Torna's is 1.5, and XBC:DE is 1.55/1,6

Progression-wise, it would be easier to backport stuff from DE's version of the renderer to Torna rather than to XBC2

Although I say if they go through the effort to add DLSS to XBC2's version, the others should get it as well imho as it should only be easier for those ones.
 
OP
OP
Dakhil

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
Straddling both console and mobile gaming is Switch's strength, but it also needs to fend off challenges from both ends. The mobile space in particular is evolving at a breakneck speed. You must give your best shot every single time or risk becoming obsolete.







Note that L0vetodream is 88.8% accurate according to AppleTrack, MauriQHD is >60% accurate "by choice" according to themselves, and FrontTron is pretty good with Samsung and LG leaks (not sure about Apple).

My apologies for the late reply, but Apple is definitely a threat to Nintendo hardware wise, especially when CPU cores are concerned, considering Apple's custom Arm based CPU cores are more performant and more power efficient than any of Arm's Cortex-A CPU cores. It doesn't help that Apple can outspend any company in terms of securing enough capacity for TSMC's most advanced process nodes, which is one of the reasons why Apple's custom Arm based CPUs are more performant and more power efficient than any of Arm's Cortex-A CPU cores. However, I imagine that at the very least, Nvidia can design a mobile GPU that's very competitive against Apple's GPU in terms of performance.
 

Alovon11

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,125
So

My apologies for the late reply, but Apple is definitely a threat to Nintendo hardware wise, especially when CPU cores are concerned, considering Apple's custom Arm based CPU cores are more performant and more power efficient than any of Arm's Cortex-A CPU cores. It doesn't help that Apple can outspend any company in terms of securing enough capacity for TSMC's most advanced process nodes, which is one of the reasons why Apple's custom Arm based CPUs are more performant and more power efficient than any of Arm's Cortex-A CPU cores. However, I imagine that at the very least, Nvidia can design a mobile GPU that's very competitive against Apple's GPU in terms of performance.
And also Does help that Apple doesn't have DLSS or RT support (Although the threat of Apple could potentially influence Nintendo/NVIDIA to add RT cores into the SoC of the next Switch)
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
And also Does help that Apple doesn't have DLSS or RT support (Although the threat of Apple could potentially influence Nintendo/NVIDIA to add RT cores into the SoC of the next Switch)
RT has come up with apple if I remember correctly. And they probably are experimenting with upscaling tech. Anyone who's looking at gaming probably is at this point
 
OP
OP
Dakhil

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
And also Does help that Apple doesn't have DLSS or RT support (Although the threat of Apple could potentially influence Nintendo/NVIDIA to add RT cores into the SoC of the next Switch)
The GPU on the Apple A14 Bionic supports PowerVR Texture Compression (PVRTC) according to Apple's Metal Feature Sets Table (via Hacker News). And Imagination was theoretically the first company to bring ray tracing to a mobile GPU, although it wasn't adopted by any company. So technically speaking, if Apple really wanted to support ray tracing, Apple could simply pay Imagination a royalty to use Imagination's ray tracing technology.

So far, AMD is the first company to bring ray tracing support to a mobile GPU in a SoC of a mobile product that's actually going to be released. Of course, the GPU on the new Nintendo Switch model's SoC could feature RT cores, but there's no guarantee that's the case, considering there are no reputable rumours that mention ray tracing support.
 

Alovon11

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,125
The GPU on the Apple A14 Bionic supports PowerVR Texture Compression (PVRTC) according to Apple's Metal Feature Sets Table (via Imagination was theoretically the first company to bring ray tracing to a mobile GPU, although it wasn't adopted by any company. So technically speaking, if Apple really wanted to support ray tracing, Apple could simply pay Imagination a royalty to use Imagination's ray tracing technology.

So far, AMD is the first company to bring ray tracing support to a mobile GPU in a SoC of a mobile product that's actually going to be released. Of course, the GPU on the new Nintendo Switch model's SoC could feature RT cores, but there's no guarantee that's the case, considering there are no reputable rumours that mention ray tracing support.
Yeah, although the extent of the rumours are "Nintendo is using a customized SoC that is derived at least in some part from Orin" so the customization part is pretty much blank on what is stated.

The chances of having a 4+4 Core CPU with 4SMs and RT cores are as supported by rumors as 8 CPU cores+ 8 SMs with no RT cores.
 
OP
OP
Dakhil

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
Yeah, although the extent of the rumours are "Nintendo is using a customized SoC that is derived at least in some part from Orin" so the customization part is pretty much blank on what is stated.

The chances of having a 4+4 Core CPU with 4SMs and RT cores are as supported by rumors as 8 CPU cores+ 8 SMs with no RT cores.
To play devil's advocate, Orin S is technically a customised variant of Orin. And no one really knows anything about Orin S. So I think that my argument about RT cores not being guaranteed still stands.
 

Alovon11

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,125
To play devil's advocate, Orin S is technically a customised variant of Orin. And no one really knows anything about Orin S. So I think that my argument about RT cores not being guaranteed still stands.
The same thing can be said about Orin S however.

Like, if we are running off the rumors as said, the chances of it being Orin S, or something completely unique like an "Orin N".etc is equal in probability based on that rumor.

All we have is that it's based on Orin so that means

  • 2021 Series Cortex A-series CPUs for the CPU
  • Ampere+/Proto-Lovelace GPU
  • Improved Interconnect
  • Cache memory of some sort.
  • Samsung 8NM or better processing node.
The rest is up in the air.

We can make constructive assumptions like CPU core count/SM Count ranges (4+4 CPU with 4SMs to 8 CPU cores with 8SMs is the reasonable range), but things like RT cores, or the proper identity of the SoC is undiscernible until we actually get more info on the SoC from those leakers like Kopite.
 

Lwill

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,627
The chip is called T239. Black Knight is that codename's codename. Like Mariko and Erista.

Probably
That was my idea as well.
It is interesting how kopite7kimi is gradually sharing tidbits, though I'm unsure on how helpful it actually his in terms of knowing what to expect from this modified Orin chipset.
 

Mr.Gamerson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
906
What do you guys think is a bigger selling point for the switch Pro?

1. Every switch game getting a performance and or resolution boost patch day one and Nintendo published games getting mandatory patches for 1440p/4k resolution boost in docked mode; native handheld resolutions and 60fps performance modes Day one. 1440p/4k 60fps Virtual console. HDR and VRR support for every game as well day one.

2. Switch Pro being capable enough to receive cross gen and current gen ports exclusively on the same day as the other systems (Eldin Ring, Witcher Next, Dragons Dogma 2, Saints Row 5,etc) Launches with at least 3 major AAA ports like RDR2 Battlefield 2042, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, GTA 5 current gen etc.

I pick number 2 because the more games the better and i think its easier to market the Switch Pro's performance improvements with exclusive games than resolution and frame rate increases.
 

DXB-KNIGHT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,189
Black Knight could be reference to something else related to the Black Knight, ie Dane.
latest
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,996
What do you guys think is a bigger selling point for the switch Pro?

1. Every switch game getting a performance and or resolution boost patch day one and Nintendo published games getting mandatory patches for 1440p/4k resolution boost in docked mode; native handheld resolutions and 60fps performance modes Day one. 1440p/4k 60fps Virtual console. HDR and VRR support for every game as well day one.

2. Switch Pro being capable enough to receive cross gen and current gen ports exclusively on the same day as the other systems (Eldin Ring, Witcher Next, Dragons Dogma 2, Saints Row 5,etc) Launches with at least 3 major AAA ports like RDR2 Battlefield 2042, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, GTA 5 current gen etc.

I pick number 2 because the more games the better and i think its easier to market the Switch Pro's performance improvements with exclusive games than resolution and frame rate increases.

I went with 1. Simply because era will just say. "WhY dO I WaNt To PlAy ThE wOrSt VeRsIoN oF tHe GaMe?"

For me both are equally appealing. For example I refuse to play Xenoblade Chronicles 2 or Definitive Edition without some kind of framerate and resolution boost. I'd probably only buy it if it got a DLSS patch to 4K/60, and I'd definitely replay BOTW, Witcher 3 and Doom Eternal of they all gained DLSS patches.

I think people are forgetting how many games and engines Nintendo would have experimented with DLSS on and I think they'll be pleasantly surprised by the volume of patches. However I'm a firm believer that these patches will be spread out over the next year or two.

However I'd definitely double dip on the RE Engine Capcom games and I always chose Switch ports over other versions of a game for portability, so this would equally be appealing.
 

Sknygy

Member
Feb 9, 2020
124
I would say 2... I enjoy playing games on the switch moreso than any other platform.

However I don't think there will be an increase in third party support. GTA V for example is not on OG Switch because of storage.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
Is it doomer to think Nintendo won't update their more niche games?
Yes.
XB2 is a core oriented product, the Pro is also a core oriented product.

You attract the desired market to the Pro by giving them big technical showcases. People know that XB2 runs poorly on the original hardware, so it'd be a big boost to PR if the new device came with a patch for it and you can now run this beautiful big open game in 4K.

There's also a massive overestimation on how many people are required for a patch, a small team of 5 or less would be enough.
 

oneroom

Member
Dec 26, 2020
288
What do you guys think is a bigger selling point for the switch Pro?

1. Every switch game getting a performance and or resolution boost patch day one and Nintendo published games getting mandatory patches for 1440p/4k resolution boost in docked mode; native handheld resolutions and 60fps performance modes Day one. 1440p/4k 60fps Virtual console. HDR and VRR support for every game as well day one.

2. Switch Pro being capable enough to receive cross gen and current gen ports exclusively on the same day as the other systems (Eldin Ring, Witcher Next, Dragons Dogma 2, Saints Row 5,etc) Launches with at least 3 major AAA ports like RDR2 Battlefield 2042, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, GTA 5 current gen etc.

I pick number 2 because the more games the better and i think its easier to market the Switch Pro's performance improvements with exclusive games than resolution and frame rate increases.
It would be unrealistic to think that all games will be upgraded.
Most publishers don't want to do additional work that isn't profitable, so few third party games should be distributing patches.
The best we can hope for with the new Switch is that many Switch games have dynamic resolution and frame rate settings, and those numbers will stabilize at the upper limit without patches.
Nintendo will probably run some upgrades for their games, but it's a safe bet not to expect all of that either.
Their resources are finite.

As for 2., it'll be up to third parties.
Most publishers probably won't be selling games exclusively on the new Switch right away, so it will take time.
 

b3llydrum

Member
Feb 21, 2018
4,147
What do you guys think is a bigger selling point for the switch Pro?

1. Every switch game getting a performance and or resolution boost patch day one and Nintendo published games getting mandatory patches for 1440p/4k resolution boost in docked mode; native handheld resolutions and 60fps performance modes Day one. 1440p/4k 60fps Virtual console. HDR and VRR support for every game as well day one.

2. Switch Pro being capable enough to receive cross gen and current gen ports exclusively on the same day as the other systems (Eldin Ring, Witcher Next, Dragons Dogma 2, Saints Row 5,etc) Launches with at least 3 major AAA ports like RDR2 Battlefield 2042, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, GTA 5 current gen etc.

I pick number 2 because the more games the better and i think its easier to market the Switch Pro's performance improvements with exclusive games than resolution and frame rate increases.
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
Maybe they'll do patches in waves. Not all games necessarily need to be patched mind you, but starting with the 2017 games in the first wave such as BOTW, SMO, XBC2, etc., then the 2018 games so on and so forth, which in a sense reinvigorates the player-base or new customers and can increase a sense of wanting and excitement.


The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Nintendo will introduce more powerful hardware in 2021 or 2022.

....what???
 

Trrzs

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,132
I don't understand why many people find it hard to believe that Nintendo will release patches to improve the performance of their games already released on the Switch. Iwata's statements in the Wii U era have already been debated about how he wanted Nintendo to focus on developing for one platform rather than for a specific piece of hardware. Well, at the expense of knowing about the plans for the Switch Pro and if Nintendo will keep following Iwata's plan to launch iterative successors like smartphones, I think it is already quite evident that "Nintendo Switch" (with the nvidia architectures, technology and tools) is the "platform" (their iOS/android) for which they are developing now and they will develop their future games.

I think that's why they are putting too much efforts and taking too much time into releasing their old games to the Switch. They already have ways to emulate games from NES, SNES, N64, NGC and Wii to the Nintendo Switch, they re-released likely all the big games from Wii U and I'm pretty sure they will do the same with portable devices, heck! I don't know if I'm too optimistic but I have a theory that Miitopia has been an experiment in how to port Nintendo 3DS games to Nintendo Switch, to keep re-releasing old games to fill the release calendar gaps and solve their game shortages but this time from the 3DS era.

If Nintendo is putting all this effort to make most of their games available on a single platform that will be running in all their future devices, what makes you think that Nintendo won't do the same with its current games? Most of their first party Switch catalogue will be updated, adding DLSS would be the obvious choose to be future proofing for the Switch 2, 3, 4 or whatever, so the game will "evolve" with the DLSS technology to be adapted and ready to run in future hardware in whatever crazy resolutions and framerate is the standard.

Of course those won't release day one for al their games but maybe releasing in waves to keep the interest in the Switch Pro biggest strengths and give old games their time to shine. Surely Nintendo has had enough time to plan these patches and in ways to adapt, with Nvidia, the technology in their graphics engines, I even think they could find a way to add a DLSS plug-in to the NERD emulators, I don't know, the possibilities are vast with Nvidia as a Nintendo partner.

I don't know if I'm expecting too much but I'm pretty exciting for the future. Don't let me down, Nintendo (as you always do, lmao).
 
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antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
That was my idea as well.
It is interesting how kopite7kimi is gradually sharing tidbits, though I'm unsure on how helpful it actually his in terms of knowing what to expect from this modified Orin chipset.
His Nvidia knowledge has been very in-depth in the past. His source is absolutely within Nvidia. He may very well have every aspect of the chip and will drip feed things of interest while never revealing everything
 

Lwill

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,627
His Nvidia knowledge has been very in-depth in the past. His source is absolutely within Nvidia. He may very well have every aspect of the chip and will drip feed things of interest while never revealing everything
Yeah, that's what I suspect is happening. His info so far is cool to know, though. I would have never excepted a chipset for a Nintendo system to have a codename like "black knight."
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
Being able to predict codenames would mean the idea behind codenames is flawed
Not really, codenames often follows a pattern.

Tegra: comic book character.

PlayStation: the matrix

Wii U: coffee

I would rather say that being able to deduce anything from knowing the code name, means the idea behind codenames is flawed.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,524
If Nintendo intends to keep releasing games in a franchise after the Switch Pro comes out, then I see no reason they won't patch previous games available on Switch. At the very least it's a way to market the new game and sell a few more units of the older games. So I absolutely see them patching the Xenoblade games, even if it's just to improve resolution and performance. "And before you play XC3, revisit these classic stories now with improved visuals."

Nintendo knows it's a fairly easy PR move to boost their catalog by making fairly simply improvements to framerate and resolution. And you can bet they will do it in waves, or randomly.
 

Mr Swine

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,045
Sweden
Since Doom Eternal will support DLSS in 2 days, think it will come to Switch later this year?

Also it's pretty much a forest fire by now with all the smoke there is about the SoC. Even if we don't know exactly what CPU, amount of cores and GPU it is using.

Also for Xenoblade 2 Chronicles I think the devs will just let the game run at native resolution in undocked/docked mode
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
Do you believe Nintendo is aware of this thread?

I like to think they are reading this thread and having a good laugh, but also taking a few notes.
I think they are aware of many things, even highly confidential things that can happen in a yakuza, but an internet forum is at the bottom of my list as they have their own market research 😹

They were already ahead of the speculation here and guided us to out conclusions and assumptions not the other way around lol

There was that Orin SOC job listing but that happened before this kind of speculation really kicked off.

People were expecting much worse for a Switch Pro in 2021.

and GPU it is using.
Lovelace, we have come to the conclusion that it is likely using Lovelace or whatever Ampere-Next is.

or Hopper?

Either way, it seems to be newer than new in all but the node, which we are assuming it is 8nm.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Switch - Goku when fighting Raditz

Switch Revision - Goku when fighting Vegeta

Switch Revision using DLSS - Goku fighting Vegeta using Kaioken x10
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Switch - Goku when fighting Raditz

Switch Revision - Goku when fighting Vegeta

Switch Revision using DLSS - Goku fighting Vegeta using Kaioken x10
You should adapt your references to modern times Oregano.

Now it is more like :

Switch - Goku Super Sayajin Red
Switch revision - Goku Super Sayajin Blue
Switch revision using DLSS - Goku Super Sayajin Blue using Kaioken ×20

:p
 

Last_colossi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,257
Australia

many gamecubes duck taped together and not 2 gamecubes duck-taped together ;-)

Ducktape some AI processors unto an Xbox one.

Some kind of Super Sayajin

More seriously, the expectation is around PS4/XB1 level of power with better CPU + DLSS on the top that will over a very significant boost for games that support it

tenor.gif


Ok cool thanks, that sounds awesome! :D