North-American Suburbia and the need for cars.

[Kyougar]

There are many problems with Suburbia: a big Ponzi scheme (it basically bankrupts cities), gentrification, Single-house zoning, no sidewalks, endless streets without even a dirt path between rows and rows of houses to get to another street, etc.
And all of this cements the need for a car.

And all of this could be improved by adding low-commercial units to the zoning. A small grocery store, Kiosk, bowling alley, a bakery, etc. would provide entertainment and shopping possibilities without needing a car. (no sidewalks or paths between streets are still an issue). It would also provide employment or businesses for local residents without the crushing presence of Walmart a few miles away. People mourn the death of small businesses and Target and Walmart crushing the competition, but when your only option is to drive a few kilometers to get your grocery shopping done, why go to a mom and pop store when you are driving anyway? Mom-and-pop stores survive by foot-traffic, but Suburbia, which could have massive foot-traffic for a mom-and-pop store, isn't allowed to have a mom-and-pop store.

Was watching this video recently about zoning in Japan (it is quasi the same in Europe/Germany but I don't have a handy video at hand) and this is so much better for living in a neighborhood.

Why Japan Looks the Way it Does: Zoning

If you've seen my videos about Japan, you may have wondered why it looks the way it does. Today I'm going to explain it through zoning.Special Thanks to Lisa...

www.youtube.com

 

[Deleted member 2379]

Foot traffic density to make walkable commercial zones only works in cities.

The only way you get massive foot traffic is if you have massive amounts of people living a 5 minute walk away which requires apartments. People aren't going to give up their houses and land and move into those small spaces.

Most suburbs have commercial zones. You just drive to them.

America has a lot of land. It's much cheaper to spread out. Why create the density if it isn't needed.

 

[Richiek]

Not Just Bikes is another good channel about how crap urban planning and transportation infrastructure is in North America.

 

[Slayven]

You ignoring the racism, the reason for why this is and why it isn't likely to change

 

[CharlesAznable]

Foot traffic density to make walkable commercial zones only works in cities.

Click to shrink...

100% false

America has a lot of land. It's much cheaper to spread out. Why create the density if it isn't needed.

Click to shrink...

Because it's completely unsustainable. Both environmentally and fiscally.

 

[Kyougar]

Foot traffic density to make walkable commercial zones only works in cities.

The only way you get massive foot traffic is if you have massive amounts of people living a 5 minute walk away which requires apartments.

Most suburbs have commercial zones. You just drive to them.

Click to shrink...

A mom-and-pop grocery store doesn't need massive foot traffic. I am talking about a store with max 500² feet with one employer nestled either in the house of the owner or separately between rows of residential houses.

 

[entremet]

Are people forgetting that modern North American surburban construction is a relatively new thing historically? It doesn't work without cars.

We can also make smarter suburbs.

Doesn't have to be end all suburbs. I get folks prefer that mode of living.

 

[Deleted member 2379]

100% false

Because it's completely unsustainable. Both environmentally and fiscally.

Click to shrink...

My town of 25k has a great downtown which is walkable with tons of shopping and public transit into NYC. In order to shop there you need to drive to it as the population that is within realistic walking distance to not need a car is incredibly small.

Most towns in America have a "Main Street". The problem is that getting enough population density to make them only served by foot traffic is not in the cards.

 

[Kyougar]

You ignoring the racism, the reason for why this is and why it isn't likely to change

Click to shrink...

I mentioned gentrification in my first post.
What is the reason for only residential suburbia not allowing small commercial plots in between? I don't know why that changes the gentrification prospect.

 

[sfedai0]

Unfortunately, the US through its bureaucracy, gentrification, and segregation will never adopt a model like those in Asia and even in Europe to an extent.
My family is from Hong Kong and there are blocks of high rises which form small mini cites. There are shops, markets, schools, hospitals, etc. which forms the nucleus of these high rises.

I live in Northern VA where the best we can do is a mixed use town center setups filled with overpriced chains. No originality and diversity. I would still have to drive long distances for farmers markets or boutique shops.

 

[Violence Jack]

White flight is also a real thing. I grew up in the metro Atlanta area. When more black people started showing up in the city of Atlanta, white folks fled to the suburbs and largely voted down any efforts to expand light rail service to those areas in order to "keep the wrong element out". 35 years later, and that still hasn't changed. Those types of people are more than happy to spend hours on the road for work if it means building some kind of barrier between themselves and minorities.

 

[Deleted member 83599]

The only way you get massive foot traffic is if you have massive amounts of people living a 5 minute walk away which requires apartments. People aren't going to give up their houses and land and move into those small spaces.

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"People" don't have to "give up" anything. They just have to let apartments be built in their neighborhoods. Which in many suburbs, they steadfastly refuse to do. Because they don't like the type of people who live in apartments.

 

[Cerulean_skylark]

I've been looking for homes with my husband. One site had a "car friendliness" score. What garbage. It's like almost every house is a 6 or above because clearly it's just their way of avoiding saying "you need a car to access anything".

 

[entremet]

Unfortunately, the US through its bureaucracy, gentrification, and segregation will never adopt a model like those in Asia and even in Europe to an extent.
My family is from Hong Kong and there are blocks of high rises which form small mini cites. There are shops, markets, schools, hospitals, etc. which forms the nucleus of these high rises.

I live in Northern VA where the best we can do is a mixed use town center setups filled with overpriced chains. No originality and diversity. I would still have to drive long distances for farmers markets or boutique shops.

Click to shrink...

Yep.

There are interesting concepts being piloted though.

Cities For People Not Cars | Culdesac

Culdesac builds car-free neighborhoods from scratch. Come live at the first car-free neighborhood in the US - Culdesac Tempe (Phoenix) - 1000 people, 0 cars.

culdesac.com

It's not just the environmental issues with that style of living. It is so isolating. The US has a mental health crisis and is driven in part by excessive isolation and our structures don't help us connect more.

 

[Deleted member 8752]

My town of 25k has a great downtown which is walkable with tons of shopping and public transit into NYC. In order to shop there you need to drive to it as the population that is within realistic walking distance to not need a car is incredibly small.

Most towns in America have a "Main Street". The problem is that getting enough population density to make them only served by foot traffic is not in the cards.

Click to shrink...

What town? I'm looking for towns to live in near NYC with great downtowns right now. You could PM me if you'd prefer not to share it publicly.

I've never lived outside a city as an adult and am hoping to find something that still feels fun and walkable while also being more affordable and spacious.

 

[Deleted member 2379]

A mom-and-pop grocery store doesn't need massive foot traffic. I am talking about a store with max 500² feet with one employer nestled either in the house of the owner or separately between rows of residential houses.

Click to shrink...

What would that business serve? 500 square feet can handle a mini convenience store not a grocery store.

 

[Slayven]

I mentioned gentrification in my first post.
What is the reason for only residential suburbia not allowing small commercial plots in between? I don't know why that changes the gentrification prospect.

Click to shrink...

not gentrificiation, white flight and redlining. The beginning, gentrification is like act 7 of the play.

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.

www.npr.org

White Flight Lives on in American Cities

Things may seem more diverse, but people of different races still don’t live near each other.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Lakeside]

White flight is also a real thing. I grew up in the metro Atlanta area. When more black people started showing up in the city of Atlanta, white folks fled to the suburbs and largely voted down any efforts to expand light rail service to those areas in order to "keep the wrong element out". 35 years later, and that still hasn't changed. Those types of people are more than happy to spend hours on the road for work if it means building some kind of barrier between themselves and minorities.

Click to shrink...

This was the same sort of thing when the light rail was built in my city. We're way out from that area and yes, it was defeated so the wrong element couldn't visit as easily.

Fast forward, there's a ton of crime on the light rail so it's validated that stance for the people that took it. I don't know anyone that will even use it these days, where not long ago people would drive to a parking lot where they could jump on.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

I'm glad i don't live in the US

everytime i see these giants streets, these huge empty spaces between stores, no sidewalk, and all these cul-de-sac stuff, i feel for the people having to live there

seen a lot of these not just bikes videos

 

[Kyougar]

My town of 25k has a great downtown which is walkable with tons of shopping and public transit into NYC. In order to shop there you need to drive to it as the population that is within realistic walking distance to not need a car is incredibly small.

Most towns in America have a "Main Street". The problem is that getting enough population density to make them only served by foot traffic is not in the cards.

Click to shrink...

Why is that such a perceived problem? First of all, with a small store (~500² feet) in between a row of houses, you don't need that much foot traffic. Especially in a "young neighborhood" with many kids which that store would be the only store they could walk or bike to.
And how sprawled out is your 25k city that you can't go grocery shopping without a car. I have a dozen supermarkets/grocery stores, half a dozen bakeries and butchers and over a dozen of food stalls in a 15 minute walk radius in my city, the closest grocery store is 2 minutes from my apartment.

 

[TheMadTitan]

"People" don't have to "give up" anything. They just have to let apartments be built in their neighborhoods. Which in many suburbs, they steadfastly refuse to do. Because they don't like the type of people who live in apartments.

Click to shrink...

Or have apartments built in the commercial districts/strip malls/plazas.

 

[Kyougar]

What would that business serve? 500 square feet can handle a mini convenience store not a grocery store.

Click to shrink...

Why does it need more? Sure you wouldn't get everything or a wide variety, but for kids and elderly, it would be enough.

 

[sfedai0]

What would that business serve? 500 square feet can handle a mini convenience store not a grocery store.

Click to shrink...

I dont know where youre from but in other parts of the world, a grocery store isnt all encompassing. One shop will be produce, one can be just fruits, another a butcher shop, etc.

 

[GameOver]

This is why I love Chicago and New York so much.

Nothing like a neighborhood like Lincoln Park or Cobble Hill.

 

[inner-G]

I like the suburbs/outskirts though

I'd move somewhere more rural with more acreage before I'd move somewhere more dense and urban.

 

[Futureman]

I'm glad i don't live in the US

everytime i see these giants streets, these huge empty spaces between stores, no sidewalk, and all these cul-de-sac stuff, i feel for the people having to live there

seen a lot of these not just bikes videos

Click to shrink...

America has every kind of neighborhood. They aren't all like that. If you moved here I'm sure you could find somewhere you like.

I live in a single family home on a quiet street but I'm a 5 minute walk from dozens of restaurants, my bank, gas station, multiple conveinence stores, breweries, wineries, gyms, churches, etc. I love it. Also the busway which takes me to my job 9 miles away is right out my back door.

 

[TheMadTitan]

What would that business serve? 500 square feet can handle a mini convenience store not a grocery store.

Click to shrink...

You realize NYC has corner stores tucked into neighborhoods and full on grocery stores right?

You realize the 7-Eleven down the street has more than enough content to fill a corner store tucked into a typical suburban neighborhood instead of being a 5-10 minute drive away, right?

 

[Laephis]

My town of 25k has a great downtown which is walkable with tons of shopping and public transit into NYC. In order to shop there you need to drive to it as the population that is within realistic walking distance to not need a car is incredibly small.

Most towns in America have a "Main Street". The problem is that getting enough population density to make them only served by foot traffic is not in the cards.

Click to shrink...

The business model for most nice suburbs is horribly broken. As someone already said, it's environmentally and fiscally unsustainable.

 

[nsilvias]

the few times ive stayed in any suburb like these ive felt myself slowly dying with how inaccessible anything is without a car.

 

[Spinluck]

This is why I love Chicago and New York so much.

Nothing like a neighborhood like Lincoln Park or Cobble Hill.

Click to shrink...

this.

 

[Kyougar]

not gentrificiation, white flight and redlining. The beginning, gentrification is like act 7 of the play.

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.

www.npr.org

White Flight Lives on in American Cities

Things may seem more diverse, but people of different races still don’t live near each other.

www.theatlantic.com

Click to shrink...

I have read the articles now and am aware about the specific zoning restrictions to hold people of color away, like low-income housing, apartments, or public transport access. But why are they still restricting it to only single-house zoning. Adding small commercial businesses like a mom and pop store, bakery, or a bowling alley? Fear of people working there or owning the shop, that are not from the suburbs? surely, if they can restrict suburbs to only white people, surely they could also restrict the small commercial use.

 

[coldzone24]

After moving to the Netherlands and living without a car, there is no way I can go back.

Being able to walk, bike, or just take public transportation where ever I want to go is so freeing. And because of mixed-use development, literally almost everything I need is in a 10 minute biking radius. It's absolutely amazing.

 

[Cat Party]

I was just in Fresno (where I grew up) this past summer, and the sprawl is unstoppable. They build new elementary schools and strip malls alongside the new housing developments. It's all planned out a decade in advance. Absolutely no one walks anywhere. Why would you? As long as there is land (and water), they can keep doing this. It's an addiction for Americans.

 

[Serule]

Had no idea "lack of sidewalks" was a common suburban thing (it is, I looked it up). FWIW I've lived in suburbs all my life and always had sidewalks.

 

[CHUNKYBOWSER]

I like the suburbs/outskirts though

I'd move somewhere more rural with more acreage before I'd move somewhere more dense and urban.

Click to shrink...

Thank you.

Some people actually prefer quiet suburban life.

 

[Kyougar]

Thank you.

Some people actually prefer quiet suburban life.

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What would a 500² feet grocery store change in that quiet life?
Apart from the fact that kids and people without a driver's license can better access daily needs.

 

[inner-G]

What would a 500² feet grocery store change in that quiet life?
Apart from the fact that kids and people without a driver's license can better access daily needs.

Click to shrink...

We have small mom and pop stores around here even though it's not a dense city? More like corner stores than grocery stores but they have the basics.

 

[Kyougar]

We have small mom and pop stores around here even though it's not a dense city? More like corner stores than grocery stores but they have the basics.

Click to shrink...

And the thread talks about the suburbs that only have single-house zoning.

 

[hurlex]

I have found suburbs to be so awful. It has just as bad traffic as a city, it is soulless, and a lot of times, they don't look particularly nice after a couple of years anyway.

 

[HockeyBird]

I'm glad i don't live in the US

everytime i see these giants streets, these huge empty spaces between stores, no sidewalk, and all these cul-de-sac stuff, i feel for the people having to live there

seen a lot of these not just bikes videos

Click to shrink...

Why is that? There are lots of things you can do in suburban living that is no possible living in the middle of the city. It's different for sure but kids seem to enjoy being able to play out in the street or in the woods. For a family or an older person, the suburbs are less hectic. Most suburbs are usually not far from a commercial area where someone can get most of what they want or need. But it does require having a car. But if you live out in suburbs and have a car, you can probably get to stores faster than someone tacking public transportation in the middle of the city. Depends on the suburb and city of course. Now if you want more urban living, well America has cities too.

 

[DevilMayGuy]

I must be lucky to live in a suburb with tons of shops and stores all over (Katy, outside of Houston, Texas). I personally love the suburbs because I was able to buy a 2500 sq ft 3 bedroom house with a 2 car garage and a large yard for my dog for $1,700 a month as opposed to renting a 1200 sq ft apartment with no yard downtown for the same. There are restaurants within walking distance and sidewalks all the way there, although I mostly still find myself driving to shopping centers, of which there are many within 10 minutes of me, as I live near the intersection of two major highways.

 

[BossAttack]

What would that business serve? 500 square feet can handle a mini convenience store not a grocery store.

Click to shrink...

Tell me you've never visited a proper city without telling me you've never visited a proper city.

 

[RPGam3r]

Why would I pile on top of others when I can enjoy a wooded lot that is within 7min away from walkable main streets?

 

[PanSexual_Peacock]

Tell me you've never visited a proper city without telling me you've never visited a proper city.

Click to shrink...

Most Americans haven't tbh.

 

[Ryuelli]

I grew up and live in the Houston metro area. I taught in Korea for 4 years. I can't overstate how much I despise not having access to accessible and affordable public transportation anymore. I despise driving, I always have. It's a complete waste of time, it sucks, and it's one of the few things in life that genuinely stresses me out.

I must be lucky to live in a suburb with tons of shops and stores all over (Katy, outside of Houston, Texas). I personally love the suburbs because I was able to buy a 2500 sq ft 3 bedroom house with a 2 car garage and a large yard for my dog for $1,700 a month as opposed to renting a 1200 sq ft apartment with no yard downtown for the same. There are restaurants within walking distance and sidewalks all the way there, although I mostly still find myself driving to shopping centers, of which there are many within 10 minutes of me, as I live near the intersection of two major highways.

Click to shrink...

Lol, we're almost in the same area (I'm on the Katy/Cypress border) and there isn't anything remotely interesting within walking distance here. It's soulless. I have 0 desire to ever be a homeowner, so the suburbs offer nothing for me. I loved living in a place that built up instead of out.

 

[Sidebuster]

I usually like living where other people aren't, but alternatively I like the idea of a tiny but still condensed together town where the houses are walking distance to the commercial areas (but still sleepy and quiet). I lived in one for a week and it was pretty cool being able to straight up walk to the grocery store and get back in like 80F weather without anything melting. Though if you wanted to do real shopping, you'd have to drive 15 minutes to the next town over.

 

[DevilMayGuy]

I grew up and live in the Houston metro area. I taught in Korea for 4 years. I can't overstate how much I despise not having access to accessible and affordable public transportation anymore. I despise driving, I always have. It's a complete waste of time, it sucks, and it's one of the few things in life that genuinely stresses me out.



Lol, we're almost in the same area (I'm on the Katy/Cypress border) and there isn't anything remotely interesting within walking distance here. It's soulless. I have 0 desire to ever be a homeowner, so the suburbs offer nothing for me. I loved living in a place that built up instead of out.

Click to shrink...

Helps that I live a boring life. I love going to the movies, occasionally the bar, and hanging out with friends at someone's house or hosting barbecues in my yard. The burbs has everything I need because I live the life of a mid 50s lame old person

 

[MotherFan]

Why is that? There are lots of things you can do in suburban living that is no possible living in the middle of the city. It's different for sure but kids seem to enjoy being able to play out in the street or in the woods. For a family or an older person, the suburbs are less hectic. Most suburbs are usually not far from a commercial area where someone can get most of what they want or need. But it does require having a car. But if you live out in suburbs and have a car, you can probably get to stores faster than someone tacking public transportation in the middle of the city. Depends on the suburb and city of course. Now if you want more urban living, well America has cities too.

Click to shrink...

This. I like that it is quiet, it is alot less busy outside than when I lived in an apartment. We have alot of unique houses in our development, so its not the same model over and over again and we have alot if trees and forested area around. If I need to go to the city, it is like 20 to 30 min to get downtown which is not too bad, and it takes me like 5 min to get to a drugstore.

 

[molnizzle]

You ignoring the racism, the reason for why this is and why it isn't likely to change

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Yep.

This is why the DART lines into Dallas have been expanding further and further north in recent years... but not to my area. Oh no. Can't give those inner city people easy access to our suburban utopia.

 

[mikeamizzle]

What town? I'm looking for towns to live in near NYC with great downtowns right now. You could PM me if you'd prefer not to share it publicly.

I've never lived outside a city as an adult and am hoping to find something that still feels fun and walkable while also being more affordable and spacious.

Click to shrink...

If you can afford it, places like Greenwich, or Darien, CT. Or Fairfield or Milford. Basically anywhere on the metro north new haven line.