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Araujo

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,196
This is gona be a long one, if you have the attention spam of a Goldfish go somewhere else...



I really love Final Fantasy Tactics, it's honestly a game i can call "My favorite" out of the many i've played over the years. Its, i think, the only gave i have in which i can play over and over again, but if i don't play it "my way" something always feels wrong... that being said, "My way" involved going into Chapter 2 with at least a Bard or Dancer on your team... so... yeah....

As someone who loves Tactical and Strategy RPG's, over the last 20 or so years i've seen many try to get into the genre and the term "Inspired by" or "Influenced by" or "In the vein of" is usually followed by Final Fantasy Tactics whenever someone wants to turn some heads their way when talking about their Tactics RPG... but, really, very few ever do it.

One of the things that FFT got it right that MANY Tactics RPG's fail to grasp... is map design.

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Just a very few examples to paint a picture. But largely, Maps in FFT have a few things in common...

1) Vertical gameplay. Terrain changes constantly, being above or below matters a lot, jumping and movement are key to positioning, many maps will have "funnels" that can be overcome with high stats or abilities.

2) Small sizes. Maps in FFT are not tiny, some are quite large (most are tall instead though...) but they are all compact. This keeps the fighting fast paced and intense, but also, makes positioning critical. If you let the opposing force break your formation and surround you, or plan badly your position, this could lead to doom. And it works in synergy with item 1.

3) Naturally feeling. This gives a great sense of immersion to the fights. battles break in abandon houses, city streets, castle rooftops, and they all FEEL like those places and LOOK like those places. While in the era FFT was released most RPG's had that "Warp you to the battle dimension" feeling, the battles in FFT felt like they were happening in the place they were actually happening. So, there would be pillars in front of a temple, and those pillars would be a part of the strategy of that map. Not just by you, but by enemies too!


Those 3 elements combined to make each map in FFT a challenge. Even the very basic first maps in the game still have these elements, with cut off points, high and low terrain and a flow to them.


So... then what?

If you go looking for other Tactical RPG's of our time, you will see that they are not built like Strategy maps. They are built like puzzles. And those that do think in Strategy terms like Tactics did, fail in some aspects.

The maps are either too long, made like huge corridors that force you to think on how you spend your resources to travel through the map, which in their make them feel like a slog ( Gods War on PS4 does this )

Or they are just flat boring plains most of the time, with very little elevation, overly simplifieing the strategy ( Tactics Advance does this. As does Onimusha Tactics. And even Tactics Ogre );

Others abandon terrain almost completely, going for a more chess like approach where you have to consider how you kite enemies and position your troops ( Banner Saga does this )

Now, don't go thinking FFT is the only one to get it right... Front Mission 3 nails almost as hard these same aspects. And although not quite as good, Stella Glow on the 3DS does it too.

And you might be think "Well, Fire Emblem does not really uses these elements in the same way" but Fire Emble is another branch in that tree. It's not about Strategy in positioning as is managing your troops and breaking formation. For Fire Emblem's gameplay, you are more incentivise in thinking on how you gonna distribute your power on "Lanes" to strike almost in direct lines to your foes... it works in a similar lane of Though as the Super Robot Wars series and SD Gundam G Generation series.

A few other games tried to emulate the idea of how important your maps need to be in a good Strategy game, Children of the Zodiarcs did this... while directly emulating FFT

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It just wasn't as good or as interesting as the design ideas of FFT.



Maps in Final Fantasy Tactics are memorable, and that's because they guide the gameplay, they matter. Camera is a bit wonky because of it, but that is a problem time fixed with more modern tech.

From long straight maps that were challenging from being open Warfare

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To some really compact challenging battles

final_fantasy_tactics_3d_gameplay_potential.jpg
final_fantasy_tactics_3d_geometry_battle_map.jpg


One of the most amazing aspects that Final Fantasy Tactics brough to the genre, was the necessity and the importance of having cool looking, well thought out and challenging Maps to a Tactics game. A design concept that on modern tactics games go really under utilized and under appreciated to this day.

So i wanted to share some thoughts on it here...
 

Coinspinner

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,154
Oh hell yeah. Maps were one of the reasons I didn't like the FFTA games as much. The high ground was always the north side, and you couldn't rotate the camera, so maps tended to be really simple and the terrain not much of a consideration. Not all of them! But pretty much every map in FFT had chokepoints you could bypass if you had 4 or 5 jump, teleport, height you could exploit, etc. Quite a few had places where you could tackle an enemy off a wall too.

The main downside was that archers line of fire could be really hard to predict. That contributed a lot to players not favoring that Job very much. And it could be hard to see things if characters were positioned in nooks or inside walls. Today these things have solutions of course, but it may have been too much to ask for in FFT's day.
 

Anustart

9 Million Scovilles
Avenger
Nov 12, 2017
9,053
FFT is the only turn based strategy I've liked.

The maps we're definitely a great part that helped facilitate the battles.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Excellent OP and I completely agree. Thanks for posting this.

I know the OP touches on this a bit. But does Tactics Ogre LUCT really pale that much in comparison to FFT? Map-wise, anyway.
 

AquaRegia

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,683
I feel like a bunch of those pics are not from the finished game.

Regardless, my top three FFT maps:

1) Grog Hill. Whether the story battle or the eleven monk challenge fight, having to march up the hill and meet the enemy quickly led to many memorable fights.

2) Lost Sacred Precincts. The fight against Balk is trash, but ther map with its various crossings is a lot of fun to explore. Must constantly be on your toes to avoid a guaranteed 3x hit from a Tiamat.

3) Outside Riovanes. You get to storm a castle! What more do you need? Sadly there is a knight you sometimes can't target when using a touchscreen version, as he hides between two tall walls.
 

IwazaruK7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Oh yeah, the only other tactics game i also like as much as FFT is Silent Storm which, of course, is different school (western approach; anyway its more about how destruction of level influences play)



 

ChronoKnight

Member
Jan 4, 2018
11
UK
Really enjoyed reading the OP. The maps are often overlooked and I like how you emphasized how you always felt like you are fighting in the actual environment your characters are in.

Also, they did a great job embracing the blocky grid base design into the art style of the game. It looks great!
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,970
South Carolina
It's that diarama motif (a callback to Matsuno's childhood projects). It works on both the battles AND the cutscenes, giving them a TV show/theater feel (while also allowing the battle transition to happen like *snap* that).

Zodiarchs...tried. But the elevation didn't effect much, and line of sight was incredibly muted (watch this arrow go thru this eave, in other words).

This one is trying too, and hopefully for the better:

 

TeenageFBI

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,254
Even beyond the tactical benefits of FFT's maps, goddamn do they look good. Nice, low resolution pixel art on low poly objects is such a great style.
 
OP
OP
Araujo

Araujo

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,196
Excellent OP and I completely agree. Thanks for posting this.

I know the OP touches on this a bit. But does Tactics Ogre LUCT really pale that much in comparison to FFT? Map-wise, anyway.

Most were like this

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But a few were like this

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But overall you can see how they are more... "even" i guess it's fair wording for it. Tactics Ogre tended to have wider maps so the smaller Skirmishes were more apart from one another. Just for comparison, look at the map above and see this one from Final fantasy Tactics

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look how they are, essentially, the same type of map. But the one fro FFT is more "Uneven" . On the tactics ogre one you are never more than 2 Blocks away from the level above or below, on the FFT map, it varies, and you can get stuck in areas where you just can't jump to the level above or below and have to run around, or you can try to kite the battle down to the water, or flank with high mobility characters around to get to the rooftops and get an advantage... also being overall smaller, mean critical decisions happened faster even though both games you usually have the same amount of characters on the field.



It's that diarama motif (a callback to Matsuno's childhood projects). It works on both the battles AND the cutscenes, giving them a TV show/theater feel (while also allowing the battle transition to happen like *snap* that).

Zodiarchs...tried. But the elevation didn't effect much, and line of sight was incredibly muted (watch this arrow go thru this eave, in other words).

This one is trying too, and hopefully for the better:



Now THAT game just entered my Radar. Thanks!
 

Deleted member 20603

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
946
Knocking someone off a ledge with the Throw Stone or Dash ability *Chef kiss*

It was nice that the abilities had different height tolerances, sometimes working against you if you weren't careful. If your healers were monks, you always made sure your less tanky party members had an adjacent square with the same height.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
Great post, OP. There are a few other games, like the newer XCOMs, that get the verticality and variation right, but they have big, sprawling maps rather than the super-condensed FFT style, and that really does mean a different tempo to combat.
 

Miles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
639
San Diego, CA
is originally a 1995 game, while FFT is 1997.

And how was Ogre Battle 64?

OB64 had much different gameplay. Instead of sending one unit in to attack you sent a group of 5. Because of this the maps had to be broader, one giant map with multiple towns and villages.

It's one of my favorite games of all time along with FFT but the only similarities lie in them both being strategy RPGs with changeable classes for characters.
 
OP
OP
Araujo

Araujo

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,196
I really need to take a look at this and Tactics Ogre. Never played them and these games are getting praise like crazy.

If you are going to take a look at FFT, go for War of the Lions, the updated version. Even the Android version is good, the second game ever and only i payed for on my Phone (the other one being Plague Inc)
 

Azriell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,109
Great post OP. I never really thought about it, but you're absolutely right. Tightness and verticality are what set FFT apart from most others. I also always loved how natural they felt.
 

FolderBrad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
890
Have always soap boxed about this myself. You're very right.

It's one of the main reasons I prefer FFT to its handheld counterparts as well as the Tactics Ogre games. Game where you cannot rotate always have weaker map design.

Can anyone think of any other less popular srpgs with good map design?
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
This is the main reason why I never really vibed with a srpg beside FFT being one of my favorite games of all time. I agree on all accounts. I guess I need to check out front mission 3 by I tried the port for the DS and didn't really like it. Found it too annoyingly difficult.
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
FFT was the first SRPG I ever played, and it remains my favorite. I wasn't as happy with FFTA on the GBA, and though I got FFT Grimoire for a good price, I've never actually played it.

Not to get off-topic, but how do people think Disgaea compares? I have "Complete" preordered for Switch, but I'm not 100% convinced that it's going to scratch the itch.
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,212
New Jersey
Excellent OP and I completely agree. Thanks for posting this.

I know the OP touches on this a bit. But does Tactics Ogre LUCT really pale that much in comparison to FFT? Map-wise, anyway.
Tactics Ogre had you control 10 people plus guests, so it used a lot more wider maps than FFT does with its small party size.

mean critical decisions happened faster even though both games you usually have the same amount of characters on the field.
Tactics Ogre typically had double the number of characters on the field. In FFT you only picked 4-5 characters for a map, TO never drops below 10. And enemy counts are much higher to correspond with this.
 

Skyroar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
58
Tactics Ogre maps were a lot more reliant on water/ snow tiles that slowed down your movement. Those tiles were incredibly impactful on how they affected your positioning and strategy, despite their apparent "plainess", so calling them worse than FFT's maps because they weren't as vertical seems unfair. (FFT also has a few of them too, of course.)

Tighter corridors in TO were more impactful than in FFT due to the higher army size, as putting your units close together was a bigger problem, forcing you to consider alternative, "slower" paths instead of having half your party unable to move forward and be made useless. Even in bigger, open maps, that could be a disaster against enemies with area of effect abilities.

TO:LUCT also had optional dungeons with tile "holes" where units would fall to their death if they were knockbacked and had no ability to fly.

And the original TO was incredibly unforgiving in its own ways to bad positioning, meaning that, while even in "plain" maps, you would need extra care about exposing your weaker units too much. Sometimes, moving only half the tiles was actually a good thing. If most of those maps also had verticality added into them, the complexity would possibly be too much.

FFT, in contrast, had a lot more movement abilities. Teleports, jump enhancements, etc; as well as crazy-powerful area-of-effect spells that were balanced by terrain elevation (summons, for example).

So in the end, both games were polished and balanced around their map design.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Great thread.

Agree entirely on Front Mission 3. It's a game about mech combat between various official, special ops and rebel forces, and, when the plot takes the team into urban areas, combat takes place in town centres, on motorways, around important facilities like dams and power stations. When the protagonists are forced to battle at a roadblock, that roadblock exists on the map, as do the cars that block movement, as do the enemy mechs in police colours. It does a great job of making battle feel like it's breaking out in places full of civilians, and that you need to be careful.
 

Thatguy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,207
Seattle WA
I agree 100% TC I'm always trying new tactics games and struggling to understand why nobody can match FFT and map quality is a huge aspect. Front Mission 3 is probably runner up, but there is a new contender: Battletech. I'm not finished, and some random mi9ssions aren't very inspired, but the mainline story quests have been really strong.

If you've never tried it just know that it runs on a hexagon grid that isn't always displayed (in dots). A few highlights:

BATTLETECH_Moon.jpg

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battletech-review-mech-my-day.jpg

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