Star Wars |OT3| Somehow, this thread returned
- Thread starter WadiumArcadium
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She is alive and well at the end. She might go up in the force when she eventually dies for all we know.
But now I realise you guys were referring to the moment she's deadish for a sec before Ben sacrifices himself.
Indeed, if she had unlocked the Force Ghost ability, she should have vanished immediately at that moment
She's literally dead on the floor after the Jedi abandon her though 😬
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I thought Qui-Gon wasn't instant because he didn't know the full ability (only his voice became one with the Force, he can't manifest his body)
The Vader thing is ambiguous and was before they really codified any of that
Leia I don't remember how it went (like half of TROS lol)
Force ghosts have always been inconsistent in the franchise (Special Edition Anakin looks young, but not Kenobi? How long does it take to disappear anyway?), but having Kylo immediately disappear upon death, and Rey not disappear is hilarious.
Never mind the intricacies of the plot, the hows and whys, I'm talking on a purely thematic and karmic level, Kylo disappearing into the Force and Rey not when she dies, is hilarious to me. In Star Wars visual language, disappearing upon death is like a reward.
I don't think it was even necessary for his body to disappear. Would there have been complaints if he hadn't? Doubtful.
But now through repetition, it's becoming the norm for villains who find redemption, that if you do something nice towards the end of a villainous life, you can retain consciousness after death. Anakin had his 'chosen one' excuse to fall back on. A popular excuse I've seen for Kylo is "Luke taught him! It's one of the lessons at the Academy!"
Poor Rey. If only Luke had taught her too in between sipping all that blue milk.
I look forward to more variations on force ghost shenanigans. Yoda calling down lightning was interesting. I wonder if we can have an antagonist who is a force ghost for the entirety of a trilogy. Like, a Sith who has managed to do the impossible, to carry his consciousness after death. How do you defeat a Sith ghost!?
sorry man, i didn't read the whole post, because mine was a joke.
i really dont care about the mechanics of "ghosts"
it is such a fucking shame it became a "technique"
but thats what gerogie wanted for some reason
All Jedi should fade away when they die automatically. I've always disliked the idea of it being a technique, and in fact the larger technique-ification of the Force, splitting it up into discrete 'powers' that you have to study and take tests on. The Force is the Force and you do whatever you want with it as long as you truly believe you can.
Reject Wookieepedia, embrace the things Yoda actually says in the movie :P
(btw I don't think the TROS scene is making any kind of statement about whether Rey would have faded away or not. She had to hang around for a little while so they could do the lifeforce thing with Ben. It's just anime time dilation.)
Reject Wookieepedia, embrace the things Yoda actually says in the movie :P
(btw I don't think the TROS scene is making any kind of statement about whether Rey would have faded away or not. She had to hang around for a little while so they could do the lifeforce thing with Ben. It's just anime time dilation.)
Oh definitely. But that makes it an inconsistency/oversight/plothole.
Meanwhile Vader's body waited hours to be burned before most likely fading away and him becoming a force ghost.
Incorrect, his body vanished when he died. Luke burned only his armor.
This is canon as per "Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader" :)
This?
Yeah okay. 🙄
And it still didn't vanish immediately on screen like everyone else's immediately. Luke is just staring at his dead body and presumably still dragging it into the shuttle.
I'm reading Rinzler's Making of ROTJ now. Here's Lucas's opening text from his very first rough draft:
Also I was surprised to learn the original title actually was Return of the Jedi, but when Lucas told producer Howard Kazanjian, the guy told Lucas it wasn't as exciting as the previous two film titles, so a couple days later Lucas changed it to Revenge.
My thoughts while reading this: "Shut the fuck up Kazanjian, nobody cares what you think!"
Here's an excerpt from the draft, Lucas still playing around with the whole concept of force ghosts:
This ending....
Also I was surprised to learn the original title actually was Return of the Jedi, but when Lucas told producer Howard Kazanjian, the guy told Lucas it wasn't as exciting as the previous two film titles, so a couple days later Lucas changed it to Revenge.
My thoughts while reading this: "Shut the fuck up Kazanjian, nobody cares what you think!"
Here's an excerpt from the draft, Lucas still playing around with the whole concept of force ghosts:
This ending....
TWO Death Stars? :oI'm reading Rinzler's Making of ROTJ now. Here's Lucas's opening text from his very first rough draft:
Also I was surprised to learn the original title actually was Return of the Jedi, but when Lucas told producer Howard Kazanjian, the guy told Lucas it wasn't as exciting as the previous two film titles, so a couple days later Lucas changed it to Revenge.
My thoughts while reading this: "Shut the fuck up Kazanjian, nobody cares what you think!"
Here's an excerpt from the draft, Lucas still playing around with the whole concept of force ghosts:
This ending....
And yeah, this ending is great and emotional in isolation, but realistically I don't think Leia and co. would be cool with Anakin joining them in the celebration lol
Also this seems to confirm that Yoda was originally "the Jedi Master", with everyone else a Jedi Knight. There was no rank system with multiple Jedi Masters and whatnot.
Two Death Stars cracked me up. It's really cool though, how Lucas's first draft of each film is pretty close to the final product. They all get polished and refined during the rewriting process, but the basic structure of each film remained intact.
Although in ROTJ case, Leia does not take part in the rescue of Han at the beginning, she's off having speeder adventures with new characters. I'm gonna keep reading to see how her character morphs through each draft, considering how annoyed Carrie was at how little her character had to do in ESB.
Force ghosts coming back to life seems too OP too lol. I like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation he was going for though.
While reading the making of ROTJ, it occurred to me I've never seen any kind of discussion about Richard Marquand's contribution to SW. Which is a shame.
1. I didn't know Ben Burtt did second unit direction on the PT.
2. Order 66 was originally going to happen in Episode II? (I reckon it wasn't a 'every Jedi gets killed'-scene like we got in III, but more the first victims) I can't help but think that would actually have been better (not in the Episode II we got, but in a different story and structure). The start of the Jedi-genocide would be a fantastic 'all has gone to hell' moment at the end of act II of the trilogy, and in Episode III you could explore the effect of it. Surviving Jedi still being hunted, increasing suspicions in Obi Wan and Yoda if Anakin has turned to the dark. The Clone Wars still raging in the background while more and more Jedi get snuffed.
It would of course mean Anakin's turn would've had to happen sooner, or that he would turn while the killings are already happening. Which would also ask for a wildly different story over the whole trilogy. Man, the PT wasted so much potential for a compelling 'fall of a hero' story.
Anakin doesn't necessarily have to turn at the exact same moment order 66 happens. The Clone Wars being between the Jedi and the clones could've worked with good writing. Especially if they hadn't wasted an entire film on Anakin's childhood where it was revealed that he built C3PO before blowing up a space station by accident.
Yeah, that's what I mean by 'turning while the killings are already happening', but I think it might be interesting if he was instrumental to it. Anyway, his turn comes way to late (and way to sudden) in the trilogy to actually work well imo. A turn at the end of II would leave III to explore the fallout of it.
I mean, maybe? The great thing about finding out different stages of the creative process is that it causes us to dream. And in our dreams everything seems better. You are making an assumption that Anakin would turn sooner. Not an assumption I would make. His dark path starts clearly in AotC when he slaughters the Tuskens. I don't think Order 66 earlier would have changed too much of his arc. RotS went through a lot of changes in post anyway. Things would've changed in RotS but it's impossible to say how an earlier Order 66 would have changed initial planning with characters arcs, and then how Lucas would've recalibrated after production. There are too many variables.
But that's all the trick of looking at art when it's in the process of being made. This concept of "original idea" is deceptive, especially for someone like Lucas who works by trying a lot of different things at every level of production. He throws around all kinds of ideas and allows his team the same freedom, and that's up to release. So we have all this material that doesn't make it into the final piece (as final as Lucas lets it be for the moment) and people treat it like some gospel of "this was how it was supposed to be".
Order 66 at the end of AOTC would have been a great cliffhanger.
btw, I'm loving the brainstorming sessions in Making of ROTJ:
lol @ the skateboard. I think half of the stuff coming out of George's mouth is dry sarcasm, but it's hard to tell sometimes.
haha, George doesn't have time for our nitpicky shit.
DAMNIT GEORGE, why didn't you stick to the concept of Yoda not being a fighter with the prequels? I hate Yoda wielding a lightsaber.
It's incredible to me that his idea of Anakin's downfall remained more or less intact all those years later when making the prequels. This whole transcript is from July 1981.
This is what I'm talking about the sarcasm. I can vividly imagine George saying that line with a straight face and monotone voice.
Good job Marquand and Kasdan.
btw, I'm loving the brainstorming sessions in Making of ROTJ:
lol @ the skateboard. I think half of the stuff coming out of George's mouth is dry sarcasm, but it's hard to tell sometimes.
haha, George doesn't have time for our nitpicky shit.
DAMNIT GEORGE, why didn't you stick to the concept of Yoda not being a fighter with the prequels? I hate Yoda wielding a lightsaber.
It's incredible to me that his idea of Anakin's downfall remained more or less intact all those years later when making the prequels. This whole transcript is from July 1981.
This is what I'm talking about the sarcasm. I can vividly imagine George saying that line with a straight face and monotone voice.
Good job Marquand and Kasdan.
It's not dreaming. I know this moment would've taken place during the arena fight and would not have changed a lot to what we got, though it would probably have changed a lot for III (which Lucas started writing after II was finished. . And I'm absolutely not treating it as some sort of gospel, lol. I'll never treat a cut scene as canon and I hate the sort of 'this is what truly happened' clickbait articles or videos basing themselves on some cut concept or something.
I'm just imagining if I would write the PT, what it would take to have Order 66 at the end of Episode II and to better build up the fall of Anakin (which regardless of the Tusken moment as a little set-up is fully pushed to III and executed disapointingly). And I believe that beat would fit better at the end of the second act, with it being a sort of point of no return for the character in his fall. This would mean that after act I is setting up the character as a young Jedi, with hints of his inevitable demise, Episode II would be the part he is seduced more and more and makes that final choice. Act III would be the fall-out of that decision.
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This is how Disney is going to bring Kylo Ren back someday
beware
The production values of the light of the Jedi audiobook had me hooked. Especially with the final battle. And reexpericing the story again really helped put into perspective just how different the Jedi used to be.
It's gonna be sick when she turns evil and the Jedi have to figure out a way of taking her down without alerting her Jedinet powers.
If that kid is who I suspect he is...yeah...Gideon would have a point there.I'm just gonna follow Moff Gideon's lead here and say: get rid of the kid from that poster.
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Mando Season 2 feels like it was a long time ago for some reason. I'm looking forward to watching some new Star Wars again. Though I suppose we have been spoiled by new book releases so far this year.
Yeah, it's been a pretty steady stream of quality reading this year. Heck, the new Thrawn book is out the week after next.
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After finishing Republic Commando for the first time I can safely say the Clone Wars would have ended much sooner if the game's Super Battle Droids featured elsewhere. The term 'sponge' doesn't do them justice! I did enjoy it though.
Currently listening to the Into The Dark audiobook and yea it's 🔥
