Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,899
www.hollywoodreporter.com

Disney vs. Scarlett Johansson: Why “a Ton of Lawsuits” May Be Next

As the Bob Chapek-led regime goes to war with a Marvel star, Hollywood stars and creatives fear the end of massive backend deals.
Let's set aside for a moment the question of whether Scarlett Johansson has a legal leg to stand on in her fight with Disney over her compensation for Black Widow. Let's even say she doesn't, and that she is — as Disney has publicly contended — greedy and indifferent to the horrors of the pandemic.

It doesn't matter.

Because even if all that were true, industry insiders agree, attacking Johansson so personally was a pretty spectacular unforced error. And many observers are laying that at the feet of CEO Bob Chapek (with an assist from reflexively vindictive top communications officer Zenia Mucha and with approval from the lawyers).

The person who isn't getting the blame? Outgoing chairman Bob Iger. "Somebody's playing it like an amateur," says one former Disney executive. "Iger's no amateur." A top executive at a rival studio agrees, adding that the whole confrontation seems ill-advised and avoidable. "It's insane to me — insane," he says. "Do you think on Bob Iger's watch he would ever have allowed a piece of talent to sue them?" (This executive notes that it's possible to settle such disputes by finding creative ways to pay stars without setting undesirable compensation precedents.)

A Disney insider says that blame for the statement is being placed unfairly at Chapek's feet and "this was not a unilateral decision nor an edict" from him. (It is difficult, however, to discern who, if anyone, on the studio side was informed in advance.)
It appears clear that Chapek, who has been — as noted in Johansson's lawsuit — rewarded on Wall Street for his focus on building Disney+, believes it is time to establish that the days of epic eight- or nine-figure profit-sharing paydays are over. He is hardly alone in that belief — other media giants also are all about the up-front, one-time payment. And those profit participations may not seem remotely sane to most people. But talent and their representatives fought for and won them, and obviously now they are going to fight to keep them.

In time, Johansson is likely to have company on the battle lines. "It's a much bigger existential fight that she's really leading," says producer Jason Blum. "It's a very difficult thing to do, it's really brave to do and she's fighting for all of talent." Financially, Blum is set for multiple lifetimes but still wants streamers to share revenue with talent in success. (He acknowledges his hypocrisy in that he just signed a rich deal with Universal to make three Exorcist movies for a large but flat up-front fee — a model that he hopes isn't sustainable.) The alternative to paying the talent, he notes, is paying the corporation—and how, he asks, is that better?

"What the streamers are betting on is that in the next three to five years, there will only be three or four [of them] left pumping content into homes, and they'll be so powerful that they will be able to push the price down of producing, of paying talent, of paying producers, of paying writers, directors," says Blum. "I personally don't think they'll be able to do it, but that's what they're betting on."

Another prominent producer thinks they will be able to do it — but doesn't think it will be good for the industry. "From this point on, it's just going to be work for hire," he says. "It's a huge sea change for everyone. You'll still get a huge payment up front. It's just not going to be huge home runs any more. And with time, those fees will get smaller." But having been offered such deals, this person says, "It doesn't matter to me whether [my movie] is a huge hit or not. The pressure's off." He doesn't want to embarrass himself, but a project just needs to be good enough to get the next deal. This may help explain why so many movies made for streamers seem to lack luster.

Blum concurs. "On a streaming movie, [if] you're not participating in the upside or downside, I think that compromises the creative process." Blum says he's counting on "a ton of lawsuits" in the hope that "eventually, there will be sharing in streaming — just like there has been for 50 years in this business."
 
Nov 13, 2017
9,537
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.
 

Autumn

Avenger
Apr 1, 2018
6,681
Something not really mention is that actors salaries for mid-level/supporting roles have gone down.

Hard to sympathize when it's still more than the average american but there is a reason why we get so many new shows all year round.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,890
I had a look at Bob Chapek's background just out of curiosity.

President of Distribution (VHS/DVDs)
President of Consumer Products (Toys and Licensing)
Chairman of Parks and Resorts (Galaxy's Edge among others)

Doesn't even sound like he's dealt with any Hollywood types at all. I've read a few articles where insiders have said he's bungled that side of the industry.

That said, I do think the days of Robert Downey's paychecks are gone.

Musicians make a fraction of a penny per stream right? Wonder if actors are worried that's the way they'll go.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,129
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.

For sure. I can't ever see Movie Theaters returning in the same way they were pre-covid. The last year and a half has changed fundamentally how people expect to be able to access their entertainment.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
94,451
Something has to give, cause the public isn't going to give up streaming.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.

Sadly true. Yesterday I saw The Suicide Squad on the big screen and felt sad a bit. That money was on the screen the whole time, but for how long can we keep getting these huge productions if the b. o. is so mid these days? Too soon to say, but worrying.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,345
This probably won't do anything for me personally, but I do hope she succeeds.
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,412
The Negative Zone
This whole thing is so fascinating to me. Feels like a huge moment for the industry.

It's frustrating knowing so little about how much money Disney makes on premiere access for a movie like Black Widow, because its box office alone is pretty dire.
 

Venatio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,785
Sadly true. Yesterday I saw The Suicide Squad on the big screen and felt sad a bit. That money was on the screen the whole time, but for how long can we keep getting these huge productions if the b. o. is so mid these days? Too soon to say, but worrying.

This is absolutely what we're dealing with.

Like, I understand why people like streaming. But when I see some random poster saying "Fuck theaters, I'll just wait until it's streaming," I can't help but think that they don't understand how important the theatrical model is to the movies they want to see.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
This is absolutely what we're dealing with.

Like, I understand why people like streaming. But when I see some random poster saying "Fuck theaters, I'll just wait until it's streaming," I can't help but think that they don't understand how important the theatrical model is to the movies they want to see.
Yeah, sooner rather than later you'll have Amazon LOTR looking better than any theatrical fantasy. And the rest will as always look exactly as they should, as they were made for TV.

So cherish what we have now and what is coming next year and prepare for 2023-2024-2025 without 200+ mil. blockbusters that look like they were meant solely for theatrical release.
 

mreddie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
45,079
It does scream like Chapek is getting scapegoated but then again, he's been a known penny pincher. Ironically enough, he just set fire to the barn and doesn't even know it.

Blum being blunt too. Enjoy the coming blockbusters because things are gonna get very insane in 2-3 years.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Yeah, sooner rather than later you'll have Amazon LOTR looking better than any theatrical fantasy. And the rest will as always look exactly as they should, as they were made for TV.

So cherish what we have now and what is coming next year and prepare for 2023-2024-2025 without 200+ mil. blockbusters that look like they were meant solely for theatrical release.

Honestly, I'd rather have 10 20+ million movies that take creative risks than another 200+ million blockbuster.

If streaming re-opens the mid-budget market I AM THERE FOR IT.

Not everything needs to be a massive extravaganza, but in the years leading up to the pandemic, it felt like that's where the industry was heading because that's where the $$$ was at the time.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,684
This is absolutely what we're dealing with.

Like, I understand why people like streaming. But when I see some random poster saying "Fuck theaters, I'll just wait until it's streaming," I can't help but think that they don't understand how important the theatrical model is to the movies they want to see.
I won't care, if the story is good it doesn't matter if the effects look like the best thing ever or if they're a bit more budget friendly. At the end of the day it's eye candy that doesn't make or break a movie. Story and acting are much more important.

If I can watch and enjoy the old Doctor Who I can watch and enjoy a movie that doesn't look like it cost $200 million.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
Honestly, I'd rather have 10 20+ million movies that take creative risks than another 200+ million blockbuster.

If streaming re-opens the mid-budget market I AM THERE FOR IT.

Not everything needs to be a massive extravaganza, but in the years leading up to the pandemic, it felt like that's where the industry was heading because that's where the $$$ was at the time.

I am with you! A bit of cleansing was in the air, agreed.

Just saying that for every TITANE and The Lighthouse it's nice to have, for example, what I just witnessed yesterday with The Suicide Squad, which is a rarity in AAA environment, but when it happens feels like a couple of years only, theaters only sort of event, you know what I mean? We need the playground to support all sorts of players.

Streaming monopoly is not a good thing and theaters struggling is heartbreaking to see.

But, generally, I feel you and believe in what you said.
 

gforguava

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,781
I don't know when it happened exactly but Hollywood's turn from 'make movies as cheaply as possible' to 'make your movie, budget be damned' was bound to catch up to them eventually, so it's nice to see Blum's thoughts as he seems like the kind of guy the industry needs these days.
 

Venatio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,785
I won't care, if the story is good it doesn't matter if the effects look like the best thing ever or if they're a bit more budget friendly. At the end of the day it's eye candy that doesn't make or break a movie. Story and acting are much more important.

If I can watch and enjoy the old Doctor Who I can watch and enjoy a movie that doesn't look like it cost $200 million.

That's fair. I think when it comes to the $200 million pics, it's all a bit bullshit, right? Those movies are already super commodified and ready for worldwide appeal.

My heart breaks for the mid range pics, though. I think the era of $60-$100 million dramas is gone (think Gone Girl, The Martian, Ford v Ferrari, etc). They just don't have the theatrical side to prop them up anymore.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
57,014
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.

I've said some of these things in other threads. I've thought similar things as well. Hollywood is going to change. It has to.
 

ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,018
This is absolutely what we're dealing with.

Like, I understand why people like streaming. But when I see some random poster saying "Fuck theaters, I'll just wait until it's streaming," I can't help but think that they don't understand how important the theatrical model is to the movies they want to see.

I personally was willing to pay for Day 1 streaming (and did so with Black Widow). So I was more than willing to try and still contribute money to keep those kinds of movies alive. Still am if they give an option for Day 1.

But I'm not being guilt tripped for not wanting to go back to theaters. The past year and a half showed me how necessary subtitles are for me due to my specific issues. Many theaters don't have that option available.

Streaming has made watching movies more accessible for me. I can't go back to the days of watching without subtitles just because everyone wants that model to be the one way to see movies. I don't really care about seeing it on the best screen. I don't care about the "best environment" of having tons of people around. I care about being able to understand at all times what is being said. And then you have the added bonus of pausing, rewinding, ect.

Like, I used to have AMC Stubs. I was cool with having it for a bit. But it always bothered me when watching films then that I missed something, but I put that issue in the back of my mind pre-pandemic. I'm not doing that anymore.

Theaters either need to improve their standards to make it more appealing for me to come in, or if you want me to contribute money for these big blockbusters opening weekend, you need to give me a Day 1 pay option. Guilt tripping by the industry isn't going to cut it anymore.
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,412
The Negative Zone
I am not convinced a movie like The Lighthouse can exist in this environment at all. That movie cost $4 million to make, made about $18 million worldwide, about $10 million domestic. How does that work in a mostly-streaming environment with a few new movies coming out every week? How is the budget different if it's made for streaming? I feel like it's really hard to know with how little info we have about streaming profits. It seems like fully uncharted terrain if that becomes the method of primary distribution, not just for blockbusters but for everything. That's what the article is implying too. The ecosystem is totally different for all levels of films
 

Venatio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,785
I personally was willing to pay for Day 1 streaming (and did so with Black Widow). So I was more than willing to try and still contribute money to keep those kinds of movies alive. Still am if they give an option for Day 1.

But I'm not being guilt tripped for not wanting to go back to theaters. The past year and a half showed me how necessary subtitles are for me due to my specific issues. Many theaters don't have that option available.

Streaming has made watching movies more accessible for me. I can't go back to the days of watching without subtitles just because everyone wants that model to be the one way to see movies. I don't really care about seeing it on the best screen. I don't care about the "best environment" of having tons of people around. I care about being able to understand at all times what is being said. And then you have the added bonus of pausing, rewinding, ect.

Like, I used to have AMC Stubs. I was cool with having it for a bit. But it always bothered me when watching films then that I missed something, but I put that issue in the back of my mind pre-pandemic. I'm not doing that anymore.

Theaters either need to improve their standards to make it more appealing for me to come in, or if you want me to contribute money for these big blockbusters opening weekend, you need to give me a Day 1 pay option. Guilt tripping by the industry isn't going to cut it anymore.

Totally understandable. I have seen 3 movies at the theaters since January 2020, so I'm technically part of the problem.

I just think we're witnessing a slow-moving seismic shift in the way movies get made, and it could end up being a lot worse in the end. Movies are becoming nothing more than "content" for streamers, and the incentive for filmmakers to craft extraordinary movies is lessening, which is what Blum was alluding to.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
I don't know when it happened exactly but Hollywood's turn from 'make movies as cheaply as possible' to 'make your movie, budget be damned' was bound to catch up to them eventually, so it's nice to see Blum's thoughts as he seems like the kind of guy the industry needs these days.

Blum is interesting because his model is to share the risk. The reason Blumhouse has been successful is because it minimizes its upfront by paying actors the minimum possible, but sharing more of the backend (much like a startup does with equity). This minimizes studio losses if there is a flop (and keeps production costs down), while also allowing for wins on the comp side if a movie does well.

I am not convinced a movie like The Lighthouse can exist in this environment at all. That movie cost $4 million to make, made about $18 million worldwide, about $10 million domestic. How does that work in a mostly-streaming environment with a few new movies coming out every week? How is the budget different if it's made for streaming? I feel like it's really hard to know with how little info we have about streaming profits. It seems like fully uncharted terrain if that becomes the method of primary distribution, not just for blockbusters but for everything. That's what the article is implying too. The ecosystem is totally different for all levels of films

A $4 million film is nothing for a streaming budget. As long as the pitch was solid, Netflix or HBO Max wouldn't even blink at buying something like that.

By way of comparison (and yes, it's a bigger name) Netflix paid ~$6.5 million per EPISODE for Season 1 of Star Trek Discovery. Not for the season. Per episode.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,684
That's fair. I think when it comes to the $200 million pics, it's all a bit bullshit, right? Those movies are already super commodified and ready for worldwide appeal.

My heart breaks for the mid range pics, though. I think the era of $60-$100 million dramas is gone (think Gone Girl, The Martian, Ford v Ferrari, etc). They just don't have the theatrical side to prop them up anymore.
$60-100 million is mid range these days? Those budgets are way too high and can easily be reduced by not paying actors their overinflated salaries. Matt Damon reportedly got $25 million for The Martian, get someone cheaper.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
There is a lot of actors, they'll have no issue to start offering people upfront payments and move onto to the next choice if their favorite actor doesn't want it.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,991
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.
I agree with everything you said. Something has to change!
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
You underestimate the cultural and economic power of "date nights"
1510075487jpg_spo_grande.jpg
 

Mirado

Member
Jul 7, 2020
1,196
I am not convinced a movie like The Lighthouse can exist in this environment at all. That movie cost $4 million to make, made about $18 million worldwide, about $10 million domestic. How does that work in a mostly-streaming environment with a few new movies coming out every week? How is the budget different if it's made for streaming? I feel like it's really hard to know with how little info we have about streaming profits. It seems like fully uncharted terrain if that becomes the method of primary distribution, not just for blockbusters but for everything. That's what the article is implying too. The ecosystem is totally different for all levels of films

A small budget film like The Lighthouse (of which I accounted for at least $50 of that $18 million take, thank you very much. 🤣 ) actually has a decent chance to do well with this new streaming model, as at the very least it'd have way more exposure if it's plunked on Netflix or HBO's front page vs the very limited theater release that many of these arthouse-esque films get. The Lighthouse topped out at 978 theaters, Shin Godzilla got half that and only for three weeks, and smaller weirder stuff gets even less. Even a week of promotion on Netflix would obliterate that viewcount. I don't know what that would look like revenue-wise, but I can't see how it could be a bad deal for them when they are often paying that much or more per episode for some of their series.

It feels like the major streaming players are quite comfortable throwing that level of cash (and way more) around on the off chance they get even one big hit, so if we switch out some of the dreck that's getting pushed right now for honest to goodness films, I see that as an absolute win.
 

beau_beaumont

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,389
Streaming is definitely gaining traction, but let's not act like the box office was not doing very well prior to COVID. Once the pandemic is over and studios don't release their movies day and date online, I think things will regress back to the mean. Streaming and theatrical movies can coexist and both can thrive like they have before. If people aren't scared of infection when going out and there is a new movie they want to see, I don't see why their behavior will change.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,893
A small budget film like The Lighthouse (of which I accounted for at least $50 of that $18 million take, thank you very much. 🤣 ) actually has a decent chance to do well with this new streaming model, as at the very least it'd have way more exposure if it's plunked on Netflix or HBO's front page vs the very limited theater release that many of these arthouse-esque films get. The Lighthouse topped out at 978 theaters, Shin Godzilla got half that and only for three weeks, and smaller weirder stuff gets even less. Even a week of promotion on Netflix would obliterate that viewcount. I don't know what that would look like revenue-wise, but I can't see how it could be a bad deal for them when they are often paying that much or more per episode for some of their series.

It feels like the major streaming players are quite comfortable throwing that level of cash (and way more) around on the off chance they get even one big hit, so if we switch out some of the dreck that's getting pushed right now for honest to goodness films, I see that as an absolute win.
It's not a given at all that a movie like The Lighthouse would necessarily get more exposure through a streaming-only release vs. a cinema release. Maybe on the short term yes, if the movie is on the front page of Netflix for like a week, a lot of people will scroll past it and see that there's a movie called "The Lighthouse".

However, with Netflix, there's like a serious abundance of choice (too much choice, really) and what people see on the front page is heavily decided by the algorithm and the stuff Netflix decides to promote. In a theatre or cinema it's easy, a movie like The Lighthouse plays like two or three times a day, is usually in there for several weeks, you see trailers for it in front of other movies in the weeks up to release and after release and you're constantly reminded of its existence by seeing posters in the theatre and seeing it on the schedule.

Netflix (and perhaps also HBO, but I can't say for sure) doesn't have this. Unless the movie is a huge new blockbuster release or by an extremely famous director, it will disappear from the main page in a week or less. And the algorithm can even make sure that some movies never show up for people. For example, I had no clue Netflix had released a new Sion Sono film because the algorithm had deducted that I probably wouldn't like it anyway.

There's also not much of a long tail with Netflix (and other streaming services). Cinema releases usually get a lot of buzz, even when they're smaller movies. A movie like Call Me by Your Name, to name another example than The Lighthouse, really profited from a cinema release. It got glowing reviews, theatres promoted the shit out of it, lots of people saw it and it got a lot of people talking about it (and they still do, as shown by Lil Nas X). And Call Me by Your Name is a relatively small film by a niche Italian director, but it got a buzz and a word of mouth that rivals a lot of blockbuster releases.

Now, would it technically be possible for a streaming release to have a similar buzz? Probably, but I haven't seen it happen yet. Netflix has released new Coen Brothers, new Scorsese, new Alfonso Cuaron, new Spike Lee movies that got a lot of praise, yet have nowhere near the staying power in the minds of people as some indie cinema releases. The exception is Marriage Story, but that seems like it's got more to do with the fact that it has that one scene that is memed into oblivion. But for the vast majority of Netflix movies the rule seems to be that as soon as Netflix deems them "old" (which can be a week after release), they'll just disappear in the endless content lists and are forgotten.

That's why I'm also doubtful smaller releases like The Lighthouse, Call Me by Your Name, Green Knight etc. can really exist in a streaming only environment. The budget might not be the issue, but these movies really profit from word of mouth through cinema releases and streamers just don't offer a viable alternative to that. And the idea that your movie is seen by a lot of people in the first week and then basically forgotten might be fine for the Russo's or people like Zack Snyder, but I cannot imagine someone like Robert Eggers or Luca Guadagnino really going for that in the long term.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,134
$60-100 million is mid range these days? Those budgets are way too high and can easily be reduced by not paying actors their overinflated salaries. Matt Damon reportedly got $25 million for The Martian, get someone cheaper.

Ya, like Jesse Plemons.
 

Mirado

Member
Jul 7, 2020
1,196
It's not a given at all that a movie like The Lighthouse would necessarily get more exposure through a streaming-only release vs. a cinema release. Maybe on the short term yes, if the movie is on the front page of Netflix for like a week, a lot of people will scroll past it and see that there's a movie called "The Lighthouse".

However, with Netflix, there's like a serious abundance of choice (too much choice, really) and what people see on the front page is heavily decided by the algorithm and the stuff Netflix decides to promote. In a theatre or cinema it's easy, a movie like The Lighthouse plays like two or three times a day, is usually in there for several weeks, you see trailers for it in front of other movies in the weeks up to release and after release and you're constantly reminded of its existence by seeing posters in the theatre and seeing it on the schedule.

Netflix (and perhaps also HBO, but I can't say for sure) doesn't have this. Unless the movie is a huge new blockbuster release or by an extremely famous director, it will disappear from the main page in a week or less. And the algorithm can even make sure that some movies never show up for people. For example, I had no clue Netflix had released a new Sion Sono film because the algorithm had deducted that I probably wouldn't like it anyway.

This might be true for major cities, but I'm in a decent sized metropolitan area (500K) and most of this category of film either do not get released here at all, or get a very brief one week showing and that's it. I think we had one screen for The Lighthouse at my local Cinemark for two weeks, and Shin Godzilla was in for literally two days. A streaming centric model would be a huge boon to markets like mine where we literally cannot see these films unless we drive hours to NYC or Philly or pack the few showings we do get (my showing of Godzilla was completely slammed). The algorithm could always be tweaked to surface this stuff more readily, and definitely would be if Netflix/HBO/etc weren't seeing the numbers they were hoping for. Right now they are taking the shotgun approach, but nothing is stopping them from deciding to try out a scalpel instead, as they're the ones who decide how it works.

Now, would it technically be possible for a streaming release to have a similar buzz? Probably, but I haven't seen it happen yet. Netflix has released new Coen Brothers, new Scorsese, new Alfonso Cuaron, new Spike Lee movies that got a lot of praise, yet have nowhere near the staying power in the minds of people as some indie cinema releases. The exception is Marriage Story, but that seems like it's got more to do with the fact that it has that one scene that is memed into oblivion. But for the vast majority of Netflix movies the rule seems to be that as soon as Netflix deems them "old" (which can be a week after release), they'll just disappear in the endless content lists and are forgotten.

That's why I'm also doubtful smaller releases like The Lighthouse, Call Me by Your Name, Green Knight etc. can really exist in a streaming only environment. The budget might not be the issue, but these movies really profit from word of mouth through cinema releases and streamers just don't offer a viable alternative to that. And the idea that your movie is seen by a lot of people in the first week and then basically forgotten might be fine for the Russo's or people like Zack Snyder, but I cannot imagine someone like Robert Eggers or Luca Guadagnino really going for that in the long term.

I feel like The Irishman had a lot of buzz and good mindshare staying power, although I literally live in the area it depicted so perhaps that's skewing things. Either way, I don't think anything is set in stone; if we reach the point where indie prestige projects become commonplace on streaming services, I don't see any reason why the public would have issue shifting their focus to that. I honestly think we might be in danger of overestimating the public's awareness of these films in general; your average person hasn't heard of Sion Sono or Yorgos Lanthimos at all, regardless of where their movies released. In that case, at least someone doing a Netflix deep dive would have an outside shot of finding on of their films even if it got buried by the algorithm, versus the current setup where they have a narrow window to see it if my theaters even get it at all.

As for the Eggers and Guadagnino's of the world, if post-pandemic this all shakes out in a way that diminishes the role of theaters in a movie's lifecycle, they may not have much of a choice. Depending on what the new movie consumption normal looks like, streaming services may become the primary funding source for smaller projects if big studios decide that declining theater numbers only warrant the biggest tentpole franchises get non-streaming releases. I'm not saying that's likely to happen (I'm really just talking out of my ass at this point) or that I want that to happen (whether or not I get smaller films locally, I certainly don't want to lose small theaters or relegate big screens to a blockbuster only lineup everywhere), but if a significant chunk of theatergoers decide that streaming is the way they want to consume movies going forward, I could see studios deciding to cut out the distribution and theater middle men and just slap smaller budget films online only.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,125
Who would have thought Avengers Endgame was the Endgame of cinema as we know it
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,308
With the way streaming has been taking over and the box office has been tanking, I think Hollywood -- especially executive and actors -- are in for a rude awakening when it comes to their salaries. The days of billion dollar movies are quickly fading. The cost of producing movies will need to come down, severely. Paying an actor $20M for one movie will no longer be feasible when movies can't even hit $100M in the opening weekend anymore.

If that is the case, I feel that the centre of gravity will shift away from Hollywood and from US. It's the blockbusters that have appeal internationally and no one else could match. We already see Netflix shifting to investing more internationally when production hit shows in the US in a saturated market get more expensive compared with the subscribers you might gain.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
If that is the case, I feel that the centre of gravity will shift away from Hollywood and from US. It's the blockbusters that have appeal internationally and no one else could match. We already see Netflix shifting to investing more internationally when production hit shows in the US in a saturated market get more expensive compared with the subscribers you might gain.
That investing internationally might be part cost, it is also part regulatory. Streamers need a certain amount of local content.
 
Nov 13, 2017
9,537
Streaming is definitely gaining traction, but let's not act like the box office was not doing very well prior to COVID. Once the pandemic is over and studios don't release their movies day and date online, I think things will regress back to the mean. Streaming and theatrical movies can coexist and both can thrive like they have before. If people aren't scared of infection when going out and there is a new movie they want to see, I don't see why their behavior will change.
I can't agree with you. The pandemic has trained audiences to be much more receptive to streaming blockbusters instead of seeing them in theaters. Mid budget movies will have a very hard time in theaters. Only event movies like Avengers will really prosper.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
Another prominent producer thinks they will be able to do it — but doesn't think it will be good for the industry. "From this point on, it's just going to be work for hire," he says. "It's a huge sea change for everyone. You'll still get a huge payment up front. It's just not going to be huge home runs any more. And with time, those fees will get smaller." But having been offered such deals, this person says, "It doesn't matter to me whether [my movie] is a huge hit or not. The pressure's off." He doesn't want to embarrass himself, but a project just needs to be good enough to get the next deal. This may help explain why so many movies made for streamers seem to lack luster.

I'm not sure this is the reason, but whatever it is, if the current crop of streaming movies is the future of cinema quality, that sounds like a pretty bad time to me.
 

LiS Matt

Member
Jan 19, 2018
1,100
Its strange to me hearing the money isn't there when a lot of -just for streaming services- shows seem to have 8 figure/episode budgets
 

beau_beaumont

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,389
I can't agree with you. The pandemic has trained audiences to be much more receptive to streaming blockbusters instead of seeing them in theaters. Mid budget movies will have a very hard time in theaters. Only event movies like Avengers will really prosper.
I guess there is no way to really tell until the pandemic is over, but people claimed movie theaters would be in trouble due to home video and piracy, but that didn't end up being the case.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,134
Its strange to me hearing the money isn't there when a lot of -just for streaming services- shows seem to have 8 figure/episode budgets

It's probably because they're doing that to try and get eyes on the service while not being sustainable in the long run. It's an acceptable investment cost if it means growing the userbase. It's like the idea of how Amazon had low prices for so long but no longer have the deals that they used to because that type of pricing wasn't sustainable in the long run but now Amazon dominates as a result of that pricing.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,952
Pushing down the price of producing content by reigning all the talent and costs sounds about right.

Netflix a few years ago was basically offering pennies to produce anything and everything just so they could own it and fluff up their content and stop people from going elsewhere. And many did it just because they wanted a show despite the financials making little sense. I've heard two popular podcasts talk about pitching to Netflix and basically being offered a writers salary to not only write, but star and produce versions of their shows, like the doughboys. A year long 70hour a week endeavour so they could earn less than they already do making their podcast/Patreon.
 

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,767
Honestly if we lose streaming movie releases to actors and lawsuits I'm gonna be pretty damn resentful. It's a fuck ton cheaper for me to get these films on stream than at the local cinema especially considering I can rewatch it, with the added benefit that if my wife has a seizure during it we can pause it and carry on when she's ready or another day. Not to mention there's a pandemic and I aint going near a cinema, likely for a good few years. Multi millionaires getting extra pay isn't a factor I have any vested interest in.

There's a lot of disabled people who have to jump through hoops to see a film and many rather wait, for instance we have one single screening for special needs children of each release at our local cinema during an entire run. If you can't make that day you're waiting until the DVD release. Streaming makes these films easier for everyone to see while leaving cinema as an option and I feel like the audience are being cast aside for high paid talent.
 

ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,018
There's a lot of disabled people who have to jump through hoops to see a film and many rather wait, for instance we have one single screening for special needs children of each release at our local cinema during an entire run. If you can't make that day you're waiting until the DVD release. Streaming makes these films easier for everyone to see while leaving cinema as an option and I feel like the audience are being cast aside for high paid talent.

Preach. When my father was living with me before his MS regressed and had to live in an assisted living facility, bringing him to the movies was a task.

If we had the way streaming is today even five years ago, I could have watched way more films with him.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,440
Honestly if we lose streaming movie releases to actors and lawsuits I'm gonna be pretty damn resentful. It's a fuck ton cheaper for me to get these films on stream than at the local cinema especially considering I can rewatch it, with the added benefit that if my wife has a seizure during it we can pause it and carry on when she's ready or another day. Not to mention there's a pandemic and I aint going near a cinema, likely for a good few years. Multi millionaires getting extra pay isn't a factor I have any vested interest in.

There's a lot of disabled people who have to jump through hoops to see a film and many rather wait, for instance we have one single screening for special needs children of each release at our local cinema during an entire run. If you can't make that day you're waiting until the DVD release. Streaming makes these films easier for everyone to see while leaving cinema as an option and I feel like the audience are being cast aside for high paid talent.

You're just listening to Disney's PR. The actors aren't trying to prevent streaming releases at all. They just want their contracts fairly updated to account for them.

Disney didn't cut the actors out of streaming revenue because they are trying to make is cheaper and easier for people with disabilities to watch movies from their home. They cut the actors out because they wanted to keep more profits for themselves.
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,372
Boston
Oh no, not the bloated blockbusters! 🙄

The only thing I got out of that was the reluctance of the studios to profit share a new revenue source and using it to force talent back to renegotiate.

Movies will go on. Distribution changes 🤷‍♂️