CinemaSins - Black Panther

CloseTalker said:

tbh there's a few there I haven't seen (I don't even know what Golden Exits and Ismael's Ghosts are), but other than The Strangers (which was terrible), Unsane, and Thoroughbreds, most of that list I agree is better than BP. Not necessarily an insult to BP though, I loved that movie too, we've just been spoiled this year with a lot of great stuff.

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I felt Strangers did a great job at capturing a classic horror feel to it with really great sound design and tension without reliance on cheap thrills. It wasn't a perfect movie but I had a great time with it.

Unsane had a lot of problems but I was consistently entertained throughout it and thought the camera use of a consistent voyeuristic perspective added to the feel of the film. It was interesting enough to stick with me and provide something a bit unique.
Thoroughbreds was honestly a huge let down for me. I wanted to like it a lot more than I did and felt it really cheaped out on what could have been a great film. That said I found it to be pretty fun if not a bit vapid.

Black Panther didn't really register to me. It felt like every other superhero movie to me which puts it in a comfortable spot where it didn't really do much special but looked good while being mundane for the most part. It wasn't horrible or anything but just terribly average.

RedDevil said:

YourMovieSucksDOTorg found it boring too.

Is he alright though?

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No. And neither are you. But you already knew that before posting, didn't you.

RedMercury said:

And you know this how?

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Right? Like I just got my writing featured on Indiewire and here I am being called out on the one thing I know something about.

He was just dead wrong on several of those criticisms, which isn't new for cinemasins, but you'd think they'd pay attention to basic plot at least.

Famassu said:

Wanting retribution for evils of the world you have witnessed firsthand is not cartoonishly evil. Violence just isn't the answer and Killmonger had been raised in such a world where violence was the only answer he knew.

And dear god no. Even if he didn't immediately send weapons around the world wanting revenge, he wasn't a better pick over T'Challa by any means. Just because some of his anger was justified and he made some good points about the injustices of the world and Wakanda's pathetic inaction, he showcased absolutely zero signs of being a good ruler.

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They didnt really depict his "create war everywhere and burn it all to the ground" plan as what he thought to be practical, necessary, or measured in any capacity. It was depicted as a desire to destroy out of vengeance and anger. That doesnt really line up with the competence and intelligence that he exhibits. The fact that he wanted to enact it in a matter of hours alone is absurd enough.

I feel like you're saying that he didnt showcase signs of being a good ruler because he wasnt likable and acted like a dickbag (which he ramped by by like 10x when he took the throne). If T'Challa hadnt come back, he would have retained power, and if his plan hadnt been absolutely bonkers, that might not have been a bad thing.

Trey said:

He was just dead wrong on several of those criticisms, which isn't new for cinemasins, but you'd think they'd pay attention to basic plot at least.

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That seems to be 90% of all film criticism by people nowadays. It's very frustrating.

itwasTuesday said:

Cinema Sins is the Buffalo Wild Wings of film critiques.

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Lmao

Marvel needs a villain like that dude in Upgrade.

Flow said:

ah ok fam. your first post came off rough, but ty for the clarification.

You definitely made me go O_o when you mentioned Strangers and American Animals

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I elaborated on Strangers earlier, as for American Animals it was another movie I wasn't wild about but I did think it was fun watching them contrast the actual guys with the story being told. Again, not a favourite film by any stretch but it offered me something different which tends to get a lot of mileage from me these days.


Also I forgot to elaborate to CloseTalker but Golden Exits is a fantastic family drama and Ismael's Ghosts was an alright story of a man who's wife goes missing then comes back much later on after he's moved on. Pretty fun story and Gainsbourg is really incredible in it.

Luchashaq said:

It's the perfect example of safe and watchable but ultimately dull entertainment.

Nothing ever matters long term.

There's always tons of bad comedy.

There are never lasting consequences because that could hurt a future movie.

They will never be outright awful but black panther is one of the few that is better than vaguely watchable.

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Plenty of things matter in the long term. Starks journey from Iron Man 1 to Infinity War is one big journey of actions having consequences and the character going through noticeable growth/changes both within singular movies and in the long term, and it's not the only one.

This whole "no stakes" argument isn't based on reality. Just because half of the MCU characters don't die in every movie doesn't mean there are no stakes.

Trey said:

He was just dead wrong on several of those criticisms, which isn't new for cinemasins, but you'd think they'd pay attention to basic plot at least.

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It's not that they misunderstand; they just know most of their audience won't care when they totally make stuff up because people love to feel smarter than those people who made that movie with all those silly plot holes.

Black Panther was a good film an effectively realized world, great cast, and some actual thematic weight that helped ground the Marvel fantasy aspects. The action scenes were a bit underwhelming, and yeah, the CG work was spotty, tho.

I wasn't blown away by it, but I really enjoyed it. The claims that it was a straight up bad film strain credulity, tho. I can understand not liking the film, but to call it "bad" means you either don't see enough movies or your critical evaluation skills are in need of an adjustment.

I mean, CS is either terrible comedy or comic book guy talking about films.

Nil - Nil.

vulva said:

I elaborated on Strangers earlier, as for American Animals it was another movie I wasn't wild about but I did think it was fun watching them contrast the actual guys with the story being told. Again, not a favourite film by any stretch but it offered me something different which tends to get a lot of mileage from me these days.


Also I forgot to elaborate to CloseTalker but Golden Exits is a fantastic family drama and Ismael's Ghosts was an alright story of a man who's wife goes missing then comes back much later on after he's moved on. Pretty fun story and Gainsbourg is really incredible in it.

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fair enough. I have no beef with someone who can clarify why they liked something over another.

Flow said:

fair enough. I have no beef with someone who can clarify why they liked something over another.

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Yeah that's the big thing. You'll never win an argument of telling someone why the thing they liked was bad. It's better to spend the energy explaining what you liked about something since it can provide a different scope. You can explain what you don't like, of course, but I feel like the more compelling arguments are in praise than negativity.

labpleb said:

That's not how it works. Something bad deserves to get called out. CinemaSins foster a toxic culture of media discussion and analysis, thus they are bad.

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K

But some people enjoy it, just let them have their fun.

vulva said:

Yeah that's the big thing. You'll never win an argument of telling someone why the thing they liked was bad. It's better to spend the energy explaining what you liked about something since it can provide a different scope. You can explain what you don't like, of course, but I feel like the more compelling arguments are in praise than negativity.

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True. I wrote like a 900-word review on why I liked the film. But yea once you go down the negative hole people won't be as willing to open up a discourse

SugarNoodles said:

They didnt really depict his "create war everywhere and burn it all to the ground" plan as what he thought to be practical, necessary, or measured in any capacity. It was depicted as a desire to destroy out of vengeance and anger. That doesnt really line up with the competence and intelligence that he exhibits. The fact that he wanted to enact it in a matter of hours alone is absurd enough.

I feel like you're saying that he didnt showcase signs of being a good ruler because he wasnt likable and acted like a dickbag (which he ramped by by like 10x when he took the throne). If T'Challa hadnt come back, he would have retained power, and if his plan hadnt been absolutely bonkers, that might not have been a bad thing.

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He's an angry, violent black man who wants to lash out against the world that he sees has treated him and other downtrodden black people so badly that the world deserves a violent revolution and a reset where black people (who have been enslaved and taken advantage of for centuries) are the ones taking advantage of others with the superior technology & resources Wakanda has. That's why he wouldn't make a great leader. His thoughts are rooted too deeply in anger and violence. Just because he showcases some cleverness against his adversaries doesn't mean he'd be a good ruler. Because of what he has experienced and seen, he just wants to see the world burn. There are plenty of people like that in real life.

It's shown in the movie that Wakanda has people who don't agree with the stance of hiding from the world and hiding their technological superiority and obviously Killmonger hasn't acted alone in the world, so it's not totally out of the question he'd move quickly and be able to move so quickly. Obviously it's something he's been preparing for for a long time. The final piece of the puzzle was set in place when he took the mantle of king from T'Challa and Killmonger is exactly the kind of character who would act swiftly.

1. CinemaSins is trash. They make money by tearing down films using intellectually lazy and often dishonest critiques that often say more about their inability to comprehend plot than anything else. They clearly optimize for the algorithm and favor quality over quantity and go for the cheapest possible critique of films. Their popularity normalizes and perpetuates lazy film criticism and appeals to people's worst instincts. It's akin to shooting handheld footage of bum fights and labeling it a martial arts tournament, then hiding behind the shield of "its satire." Fuck off.

2. Black Panther is obviously not perfect. The CG gets pointed out all the time, but the cast is actually a little large and the characters don't all get enough setup and payoff (the acting is stellar though, and this issue is mostly negated by the actors conveying so much through their performances). The pace of the film is a little strange in places. Vibranium is a little too...magicky for my tastes (although Pym Particles don't bother me so I don't really have a leg to stand on there). And I still haven't forgiven them for never giving us a link to Klaue's SoundCloud.

3. Anyone who says the movie got rated higher than average because it's a black cast missed the point. The reason Black Panther got rated so highly is because it's the rare comic book film that actually had a message that it spoke with conviction. It wasn't just a story of a superhero or a king or a brother or a son. It had something to say and it wasn't afraid to just come out and say it. That's what makes it special in the world of comic book movies.

4. And the aforementioned CG issues aside, it's immaculately crafted. The sets, costumes, music, etc - all incredible.

divisionbyzorro said:

3. Anyone who says the movie got rated higher than average because it's a black cast missed the point. The reason Black Panther got rated so highly is because it's the rare comic book film that actually had a message that it spoke with conviction. It wasn't just a story of a superhero or a king or a brother or a son. It had something to say and it wasn't afraid to just come out and say it. That's what makes it special in the world of comic book movies.

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They didn't miss the point at all. They're just racist cunts.

Nitpick: T'challa lost the fight thats why Kilmonger becomes king and why everyone listens to him.

Them dragging his body from the river and reviving him with magic vibranium juice doesnt make a loss into a tie.

Shy said:

No. And neither are you. But you already knew that before posting, didn't you.

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No, I didn't.

:(

RedDevil said:

No, I didn't.

:(

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If you're over 16 and unironically enjoy CinemaSins you got a problem fr

Pein said:

If it gets a best picture nomination I'll be floored. It's average at best and has terrible effects, the villain falls apart in the end which is a damn shame because he was killing it in the first half.

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I can't believe people look at Black Panther's genre-shattering score, stunning costume designs, brilliant thematic work, and second-to-none supporting cast and conclude that this is 'average'.

Like, what the heck? Doctor Strange is average. Ant-Man is average. Nothing about those movies stand out apart from a couple of neat visuals here and there. Black Panther is the first MCU film with something to say besides 'costumed shmuck discovers himself!'. In that, it's so far removed from the rest of the franchise that it's almost an insult to call it just another Marvel solo film.

nicoga3000 said:

I felt like a lot of praise came from the cast being mostly all black. Which was cool, yeah...But the movie just felt "off" to me.

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L O L

Pein said:

He went full over the top evil, he's waited his whole life for this moment and goes full idiot gotta kill everybody in the end.

He could've been zemo level good but he turned into abomination, mindless.

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Oh yeah cuz "they killed my family now i hurt u" motivation is sooooo deep

Those swinging people at the first ceremonial fight reminded me of the senate in the Star Wars prequels when jar jar proposed special powers for palpatine

I love cinemasins, its me defacto way of recapping and reenjoying a movie.

Famassu said:

Plenty of things matter in the long term. Starks journey from Iron Man 1 to Infinity War is one big journey of actions having consequences and the character going through noticeable growth/changes both within singular movies and in the long term, and it's not the only one.

This whole "no stakes" argument isn't based on reality. Just because half of the MCU characters don't die in every movie doesn't mean there are no stakes.

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Unless you're dead after something happens that thing didn't matter to you dammit!

itwasTuesday said:

Cinema Sins is the Buffalo Wild Wings of film critiques.

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Let's not insult Buffalo Wild Wings like that. That is just mean, man.

Tito said:

Black Panther is the Avatar of 2018.

A mediocre/bad movie you had to like because of outside political stuff.

Had some cool parts though, so that makes it much better than Avatar at least. Better than the first Thor or Captain movies, better than both Hulks, on par with Thor 2 and Ant-Man. Every other MCU movie is better.

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Avatar wasn't a movie known to be liked because of "outside political stuff." It was incredibly popular because it was marketed as a milestone in special effects and directed by the guy who made the other highest grossing film of all time, along with some classic action films.

In addition, the problems and strengths commonly cited for Avatar are almost the complete opposite that are commonly cited for Black Panther. Avatar was lauded for it's special effects and action sequences - the very definition of spectacle over substance. It's story was criticized as being derivative as hell, ffs. BP, on the other hand, is knocked for its special effects and action sequences but praised for its story.

Basically, your analogy doesn't work on a fundamental level.

knightmarre said:

Nitpick: T'challa lost the fight thats why Kilmonger becomes king and why everyone listens to him.

Them dragging his body from the river and reviving him with magic vibranium juice doesnt make a loss into a tie.

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They establish earlier that the only way to win is either by death or submission. T'challa didn't die and he sure as shit didn't submit so therefore the fight never really ended.

Pop-O-Matic said:

They establish earlier that the only way to win is either by death or submission. T'challa didn't die and he sure as shit didn't submit so therefore the fight never really ended.

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Shame on you for paying attention to the film! This has no place in a conversation about CinemaSins!

All I know about CinemaSins is their god awful Cabin in the Woods video that got dunked on so hard they had to make an excuse that the CinemaSins guy is a character and that if the "critique" is wrong it's all on purpose.

DeeDogg said:

...what?

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I feel that is a pretty easy to understand comparison, there.

I love when white people try to convince everyone that Killmonger was a cringy or bad a villain.

Trey said:

He was just dead wrong on several of those criticisms, which isn't new for cinemasins, but you'd think they'd pay attention to basic plot at least.

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You expect too much from this clickbait channel.

I think most criticism towards CinemaSins are unfair. It's been a while since I last saw one of their video though, I give this one a go.

Luchashaq said:

In before people don't realize most of it isn't really serious and they nitpick because they find it fun to nitpick.

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There's tons of evidence that CinemaSins is actually serious

People throwing a hissy fit over Cinema Sins are some of the most insecure people on the Internet. Just pathetic.

Trey said:

He was just dead wrong on several of those criticisms, which isn't new for cinemasins, but you'd think they'd pay attention to basic plot at least.

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Cinemasins NEVER pays attention to the plot. It's their wheelhouse.

divisionbyzorro said:

1. CinemaSins is trash. They make money by tearing down films using intellectually lazy and often dishonest critiques that often say more about their inability to comprehend plot than anything else. They clearly optimize for the algorithm and favor quality over quantity and go for the cheapest possible critique of films. Their popularity normalizes and perpetuates lazy film criticism and appeals to people's worst instincts. It's akin to shooting handheld footage of bum fights and labeling it a martial arts tournament, then hiding behind the shield of "its satire." Fuck off.

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Tito said:

Black Panther is the Avatar of 2018.

A mediocre/bad movie you had to like because of outside political stuff.

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What is this nonsense.
People liked Avatar because of Pandora and it being the first movie to really use 3D as something more than sight gags, and actually making a movie feel alive via visuals. The reason people finally decided not to like it was because, well, if you don't have the 3D effects available, it changes from an eye-opening experience into an overly long, mediocre sci-fi white savior narrative. You can't take away from Black Panther in that same way. It's just not possible to. If you liked it in theatres, you'll like it at home, and so forth.

Also, imagine thinking Black Panther is as middling as Avatar. Holy crap.

Ceyrun said:

People throwing a hissy fit over Cinema Sins are some of the most insecure people on the Internet. Just pathetic.

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Bruh. Even for movies I hate, their critiques are awful. It's not insecurity, it's recognizing bad critique and not accepting when people try to defend it with "oh I was ONLY PRETENDING TO BE SERIOUS, it's only satire!!!"

Pop-O-Matic said:

They establish earlier that the only way to win is either by death or submission. T'challa didn't die and he sure as shit didn't submit so therefore the fight never really ended.

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They also established that using vibranium juice is not allowed.

Also LOL at people taking this Marvel crap a la Black Panther or Luke Cage seriously, like, this has anything relevant to say on politics.

Both the movie and the shows are basically about black on black violence and respectability politics all the time, and the great solution at the end is to buy some properties and build a school in Oakland or whereever by some guy who rules his country like a dictator. Yeah, this is what Africa needs, another country without democracy ruled by a nepotist authoritarian monarch. They are straight-up reactionary garbage, made to not offend an audience that in the majority isn't black.

knightmarre said:

They also established that using vibranium juice is not allowed.

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I think it's allowed, you just have to have it purged from your system at the start. Which he did.

knightmarre said:

They also established that using vibranium juice is not allowed.

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Did he take the juice during the fight? Nope.
And Killmonger was not interested in having the power sapped away to continue the fight when T'Challa showed back up, so it is a moot point.
Yes, the herb is what saved T'Challa in the end, but he also never yielded nor died. So the fight was never truly finished.

Besides, the last fight was equal ground since they were both juiced up. That was the point of taking away the Black Panther powers anyways, to balance the playing field. So they still fought on equal footing in the end.

mrmickfran said:

K

But some people enjoy it, just let them have their fun.

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Or they could just not click on the thread

Wink

Playco Armboy said:

I love when white people try to convince everyone that Killmonger was a cringy or bad a villain.

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Wonder why they do this tho?

:thinking:

knightmarre said:

They also established that using vibranium juice is not allowed.

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That's because otherwise it wouldn't be a fair fight otherwise to have someone with the Black Panther powers fight a normal person. By round 2, though, both T'Challa and Killmonger both have powers and suits, making it once-again an even fight.

Shy said:

They didn't miss the point at all. They're just racist cunts.

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Most people are just really bad at critiquing art. So when they don't like a thing that everybody else likes, they look for the simplest possible explanation. So like this poster who keeps getting roasted in this thread:

nicoga3000 said:

I felt like a lot of praise came from the cast being mostly all black. Which was cool, yeah...But the movie just felt "off" to me.

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First of all, they're partially right. A significant amount of the buzz and praise in the media was for its all (mostly) black cast - at a headline level anyway. And a black director too! A lot of this was Disney *loudly* tooting their own horn, especially in the wake of Wonder Woman embarrassing them by beating them to the female-helmed movie. This was the message Disney wanted us to hear, so I'm not surprised it's the message that stuck.

But here's my point. The poster just says it felt "off," and that's kinda my point about the critiques. They can't articulate (or don't want to take the time to figure out) why they don't like the movie, and along with that they can't (or won't) figure out why critics did like it and how that misaligns with their experience and takeaways.

To a lot of people, it just still feels like another MCU film and that it's nothing special. So it's really easy to say "oh I guess it's getting a bump from being the first all-black comic book film" especially when the "all-black" nature of it was being pumped into our ears at every turn. I don't think that *necessarily* means racism - I think it speaks to general film illiteracy.