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Deleted member 6573

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
I think a Hayao Miyazaki quote perfectly encapsulates the struggles Japan is facing:


ms-2.png


"You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, 'Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life.'"

"If you don't spend time watching real people, you can't do this, because you've never seen it."


ms-6.png


"Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves."

"Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know."

"It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans."

"And that's why the industry is full of otaku!"



Too much commercial media in Japan is focused around what they think looks the most appealing...They don't design art for art's sake, they don't design art based around a human form...they design art to sell based on commercialized fetishes.

If you dig into it, it's cold and calculating, and it's a reflection of a culture where individuality is suppressed. There are of course exceptions, like Falcom's Trails in the Sky, but they're not the norm in the slightest.

That's why I've been playing Western RPGs a lot more often because they delve into the uncomfortable realities of life, including more thoughtfully designed characters. They aren't perfect by any means, but nowadays they tend to design more around function....rather than just make up something crazy and then throw it into a world like this:

cfa015a6cbb1ad1f6e11fede2843515a.jpg

As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

01Q4CJy.png



Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Now that's just mean. :D
If I remember correctly, Phoenix Down doesn't damage undead, it either insta-kills them or does nothing. It might be different in modern FF games, though. I remember feeling so smart when I figured out I could insta-kill (and thus farm) FFV gargoyles by using Gold Needles on them, back in the SNES days.
Dammit Weltall, I'll check with you first before making smarmy posts, OK :D
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
On quality, we'll just be going in circles as it's too subjective, but yeah mid-tier stuff taking a hit was definitely an issue. But company dissolutions and bad mergers didn't stop good stuff from being made. They just couldn't keep up with the absurd output of Square in its prime. For me the golden era will always be 94-2003, but that's almost entirely because of Square. If we erase them and their output from existence, I'd call 2007-now a perfectly fine golden age.
No, they definitely had an extreme effect on the market, it's why there's a downward slide, because smaller companies couldn't compete they started making lowest common denominator garbage that would at least sell enough to keep the lights (shocker, much of it didn't, because it was the same as all the other garbage that came out). I would define the same Golden Era (though I'd go further back) as you, yet my favorite games were from companies like Tri-Ace and Enix, as well as Quest and other smaller publishers/developers. None of those exist now or were bought by Square and put to task churning out sequels.

No, I'm saying if either of those games came out now, were at their peak in popularity, and had the expected visuals for a modern, mid-tier game, then they would still not pass a game like Neptunia or some other Idea Factory trash.
I sincerely doubt that.

Dammit Weltall, I'll check with you first before making smarmy posts, OK :D
Use Vanish + X-Zone. Vita is basically a different dimension.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
No, they definitely had an extreme effect on the market, it's why there's a downward slide, because smaller companies couldn't compete they started making lowest common denominator garbage that would at least sell enough to keep the lights (shocker, much of it didn't, because it was the same as all the other garbage that came out). I would define the same Golden Era (though I'd go further back) as you, yet my favorite games were from companies like Tri-Ace and Enix, as well as Quest and other smaller publishers/developers. None of those exist now or were bought by Square and put to task churning out sequels.


I sincerely doubt that.


Use Vanish + X-Zone. Vita is basically a different dimension.

To be fair, Enix was never a developer. Just the companies they worked with either don't exist anymore, are doing their own thing, or in the case of Chunsoft, are better than they've ever been.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

01Q4CJy.png



Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
Good post.

I'm curious though, if said characters (like the woman running a whorehouse) were treated by the camera like Bayonetta is (to use an extreme example), would you find it problematic?
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?
I gotta rebut that, Chrono Trigger presenting its style front and center having its Toriyama art right on the cover was extremely unusual for the time. Most of the time the promotional art was completely changed to make the game look less Japanese.

Dq4boxart.jpg
220px-Dragon_Quest_IV_cover.jpg


119629-warsong-genesis-front-cover.jpg
36976-warsong-genesis-front-cover.jpg


Warsong went the extra mile and even renamed and altered the in game portraits of the major characters.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,585
But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.
Context is key.

Trouble is, people wanna have their cake and eat it to with characters having the pure virgin heart of gold while dressing like saturday morning succubi.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

01Q4CJy.png



Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
This was the big thing Tolkien was often on about. The most important thing was the world, and the world makes the characters, the characters are not just "in" the world (this was a big reason Nioh worked, despite being frequently silly). Honestly, character design laziness happens a lot in all games, including Western ones, but of late there has typically been more thought applied to that.

To be fair, Enix was never a developer. Just the companies they worked with either don't exist anymore, are doing their own thing, or in the case of Chunsoft, are better than they've ever been.
Enix and what they eventually became just proves my point further. They went from a small-to-mid-sized game publisher, and once they were absorbed by Square, began a churn. Chunsoft is now a mid-sized company but even now they aren't exactly pouring out super-sexist games. In fact in their last five years they've virtually stopped making them, seemingly spending most of their energy on Dangan Ronpa.

Like, it's pretty clear to me that the game companies that are floundering in Japan are those that are catering specifically to a shrinking demographic that is now extremely competitive (otaku), unless you count gacha games which basically survive on whales (and being gambling).
 
Last edited:

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

01Q4CJy.png



Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.

Great post (and really fortunate that it became first-of-page!). I fully agree that personality and garment choice should harmonize, which is why characters like Morrigan and Bayonetta seem congruent and entirely valid to me, but "innocent childhood sweetheart who happens to dress like a stripper" are huge turnoffs.

I think the reason why Japan blatantly disregards this as of the last decade or two (and I believe this has been touched upon earlier as well) is because it has become entirely normalized that fictional women dress like that, entirely separate from their agency or choice. They're objectified to the point that it's not even immediately obvious that they are supposed to represent human beings with agency that would presumably pick their own clothes. They're literal ornaments, little more than mannequins, and why would ornaments not wear the clothes that makes them the most attractive to the male gaze?

There's something that I've seen called the character's "inner spark" (I don't know if it's a widespread term; as a writer you probably know better if there's an official name for it), which is when a character behaves in a way that a normal person in their position would behave, as opposed to behaving in ways that advance the plot but make no sense from their own point of view and interests (this is referred to as "level 1 intelligent characters here, i.e. the absolute baseline not to insult the reader's intelligence). Anime (and let's not fool ourselves, other media's) characters routinely and spectacularly fail this simple check in the most basic ways (which often promps the viewer to scream at the screen). Choice of clothing would seem to be one more example of "characters do what the author wants, even if it doesn't make sense from the point of view of what they'd want").
 
Last edited:

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Yeah, most jRPGs even in the golden days still tended to be based around mythology, they weren't really adults nearly so much as superheroes, and the best of them occasionally dealt with human problems. It's also why most jRPGs are fantasy worlds, rather than futuristic or gothic.
I knew there was a good reason I've always hated Persona >_>
Persona 2's pretty alright, though there are no schoolkids in it... So...
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Enix and what they eventually became just proves my point further. They went from a small-to-mid-sized game publisher, and once they were absorbed by Square, began a churn. Chunsoft is now a mid-sized company but even now they aren't exactly pouring out super-sexist games. In fact in their last five years they've virtually stopped making them, seemingly spending most of their energy on Dangan Ronpa.

Yeah, and that series alone makes Chunsoft more valuable than they've ever been. Having other geniuses on board like Uchikoshi and Ishii are just bonuses. Conception was neat too I guess.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

01Q4CJy.png



Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
Nice post. I think the character design before world design is why JRPG parties can look like a colourful travelling circus of misfits, whereas the world design before character design approach tends to give them linking factors like all military characters from one faction sharing the same style of kit. The advantage of the former is that they really stand out, the disadvantage is that they can look really silly when a character in a bright yellow costume and pointy hat is trying to hide behind three blades of grass.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
The oldest JRPG protagonist is in a game that came out in 2007.

There's something that I've seen called the character's "inner spark" (I don't know if it's a widespread term; as a writer you probably know better if there's an official name for it),

Also an author here and the term doesn't ring a bell. Sounds like one of the many dissonance-based terms that's probably more all-encompassing.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,401
I'm trying to think of a JRPG (sole/single, not co-) protagonist that is above 21 years old other than gimmick/spin-off characters like Mario from Mario RPG. Even listing those above 18 is hard (Cloud, Kevin, Shion...? I got nothing lol). Some protagonists I can think of don't have an explicit age but are clearly no older than 20, usually more around 16-18 at the most. Even those I just named are still just 22-23. The oldest I can think of is Jack in Wild ARMs at 27, but he's a co-protagonist (with the other being, of course, teenagers). And an "older" (as in, in her late 20's xD) woman? Perish the thought.

The oldest JRPG protagonist is in a game that came out in 2007.
You can't just say this and not name the game! :P

I swear, if that protagonist is a 1000 year old demon, I'll slap you :P
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I'm trying to think of a JRPG (sole/single, not co-) protagonist that is above 21 years old other than gimmick/spin-off characters like Mario from Mario RPG. Even listing those above 18 is hard (Cloud, Kevin, Shion...? I got nothing lol). Some protagonists I can think of don't have an explicit age but are clearly no older than 20, usually more around 16-18 at the most. Even those I just named are still just 22-23. The oldest I can think of is Jack in Wild ARMs at 27, but he's a co-protagonist (with the other being, of course, teenagers). And an "older" (as in, in her late 20's xD) woman? Perish the thought.


You can't just say this and not name the game! :P

I swear, if that protagonist is a 1000 year old demon, I'll slap you :P
Only example I can think of from stuff I've played is Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, where the protagonist, Maya, is a 23 year old woman and everyone in the party is an adult too save for a 17 year old boy, and even then the game's a sequel to P2 Innocent Sin, where said 17 y/o boy is the protagonist and Maya is the co-protagonist.

That game has always stuck out to me precisely because of the average age of its main party and it also happens to be my favorite cast in any RPG... Persona went to become high-school anime simulator in the next entry tho, sigh.
 
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RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,908
JP
It's just a shame there's seemingly no room for JRPGs that are a bit more serious and ambitious. Getting something like Final Fantasy Tactics in tone and story seems completely out of the question in 2018. My last JRPG was Dragon Quest IX and I think it was a good farewell for the genre for me.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I'm trying to think of a JRPG (sole/single, not co-) protagonist that is above 21 years old other than gimmick/spin-off characters like Mario from Mario RPG. Even listing those above 18 is hard (Cloud, Kevin, Shion...? I got nothing lol). Some protagonists I can think of don't have an explicit age but are clearly no older than 20, usually more around 16-18 at the most. Even those I just named are still just 22-23. The oldest I can think of is Jack in Wild ARMs at 27, but he's a co-protagonist (with the other being, of course, teenagers). And an "older" (as in, in her late 20's xD) woman? Perish the thought.
Papa Nier is 38. Granted, he's an alternate version of that character, but he's the only one we got. The novelty of a Japanese RPG with a main character his age was the entire reason I bought that game.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I never really questioned it before this thread, but there really seems to be a lack of both adult stories and, well, actually well-written serious ones that aim to be something other than regular anime for teenagers recently. Like there are still some that have good stories and are relatively tasteful but they always have at least one element that's stupidly juvenile, be it character designs, fanservice like hot springs scenes, etc.

It's a damn shame because there are JRPG series I specifically got into thanks to their mature, innovative themes and characters like Shin Megami Tensei and Persona, and both have devolved to become more and more juvenile with the time (especially so with the latter).

I think the last such game I played was the original Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey, which featured an all adult cast (I think the protagonist is in his 30s?). Hilariously enough tho, its recent remake added a teenage-looking girl as a new antagonist along with a loli goddess as part of the supporting cast lol, what a perfect example of the genre's devolution.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,039
I'm trying to think of a JRPG (sole/single, not co-) protagonist that is above 21 years old other than gimmick/spin-off characters like Mario from Mario RPG. Even listing those above 18 is hard (Cloud, Kevin, Shion...? I got nothing lol). Some protagonists I can think of don't have an explicit age but are clearly no older than 20, usually more around 16-18 at the most. Even those I just named are still just 22-23. The oldest I can think of is Jack in Wild ARMs at 27, but he's a co-protagonist (with the other being, of course, teenagers). And an "older" (as in, in her late 20's xD) woman? Perish the thought.


You can't just say this and not name the game! :P

I swear, if that protagonist is a 1000 year old demon, I'll slap you :P
Shadow Hearts's Yuri is 25.

Geddoe from Suikoden III is a 112 years old co-protagonist along with the 15 years old Hugo and the 22 years old Chris.

But yeah, older protagonists are really rare in JRPGs, aren't they? I also find it rather weird that even amongst party member, JRPGs seem to have something against forty-somethings. Like, you get (in JRPG term) the "veteran" twenties, the "old fogeys" thirties, and the "ancients" fifties and up.

Auron and Cid Highwind are apparently in their thirties. What the heck.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,085
As a corollary to this post,...

I just wanted to say that as a woman, it really doesn't bother me when women are sexy or show lots of skin in a video game. I don't even mind the fanservice-laden Dead or Alives of the world all that much. I'm not a prude...I dress in skimpy outfits all the time, especially when it's hot out...and I try to be as sex-positive as much as I possibly can.

But when I play games or read or watch shows / movies, the character's personality or the narrative has to reflect it. If she's a brash, bold seductress who runs a whorehouse and traps a wealthy monarch with her sexual prowess, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's an elven dancer performing on a stage at the capital city, a sexualized design makes sense. If she's on a sultry beach on a tropical island, a sexualized design makes sense.

This only really bothers me when you have characters like Pyra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (shown in the quote from my earlier post) where she's shy and kind and gentle and gets flustered easily...but she's dressed and designed like she's a hyper-sexual being everywhere she goes. There is nothing about her personality or the situations she's in which would compel her to dress like that. I shy away from that sort of dissonance in my entertainment because it's a hallmark of low-effort and low-quality design and writing.

I put myself in the character's shoes. If I personally wouldn't dress like that in that type of situation, I don't want to see it being represented because it breaks my immersion. The exact same goes with male characters. Form has to follow function. If the character doesn't make sense, don't include them. I've been an author for 13 years and that's one of my cardinal rules.

The tragedy behind Japanese entertainment is so many times form does NOT follow function. It seems like you have otaku designers (or designers influenced by otaku sensibilities) who create characters first, AND THEN the world comes later. So instead of thinking something like: "Would this make sense in this fantasy world? Does this fit in with the culture? Would her role in this society allow for this?"....they just think "Kawaii desu ne!" and it gets created because she's either cute (moe) or excessively sexualized. For me, that doesn't make them a character in a world. It makes them nothing more than an archetype...and I've read too many books to bother with one-dimensional archetypes who exist solely to fulfill a niche without any thought to their placement. It's a fatal flaw in writing which destroys a book 99 times out of 100...and if you look at Japanese media through the same critical lens you'll see it abound.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with Japan. When Japanese art is good, it's SUBLIME (like Kino no Tabi, Satoshi Kon movies, Makoto Shinkai movies, or Falcom games). But you have to sift through mountains of trash to get to those gems, and it's unfortunate that so many fans both domestically and internationally willingly champion this narrative laziness.

Ironically, if you ever play some of the fan-translated Super Famicom JRPGs, you'll find that Japanese designers used to be much more vibrant and thoughtful with their character designs despite their incredible simplicity...back when teams were very small and intimate, and the otaku fandom was in its infancy. You know, something like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI. It was peak creativity for Japan, in my opinion. Back then there wasn't even any stigma about Japanese games being "weird" or "for otakus"....they sold JRPGs in the West as regular RPGs and no one cared. I wonder why that's why I love my old SNES games so much today?

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Western RPGs---especially modern Western RPGs---tend to be better about this (although they certainly have their moments). They'll design the world first, and then think what characters would live and thrive in that world. They'll unabashedly design a character super-sexy, but they'll give sufficient context behind it. It's a more mature level of story-telling and I've found I crave it more as I age.
Chrono Trigger is an interesting example because it's Akira Toriyama. Toriyama is a self professed pervert and loves perverted jokes, but generally he's pretty tame with his female designs, especially if they're a main character.
Just recently with Dragon Ball Super we had Android 18 in a big fighting role and the outfit Toriyama chose for her was a track suit.
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I find Toriyama's female designs very interesting considering that he's perverted and how many other modern Japanese artists go for titillation over function.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
The only character that comes to mind is Lenneth who's was 23 by appearance. But yeah, another one hundred thousand year old lady right here.
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Yeah, for however good she might be as a character, she's immortal and the characters she deals with are also those dying, so, you know. The ages for characters in the game vary pretty wildly, but most are in their mid-to-late twenties (which actually sounds about right, given the era they were presenting, as the average age of death would be around 30).

Still, the original Valkyrie Profile remains a weird exception to most standard rules in jRPGs, whether you look at that era or eras since. Like, Indivisible seems a lot like it, but that's mostly because they listed the game as a direct inspiration for it (and it's a wRPG). Unlike most jRPGs, I really can't think of another that's actually like it. It has a non-standard turn-system and a non-standard combat system, its story is entirely different (even though it uses Norse mythology as an inspiration, it is still quite unlike the Eddas), the way the game progresses is cycle-based, it has an overworld, but the overworld just consists of towns... like, the list goes on.
 
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Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Lenneth is also one of the only female characters I can think of who's allowed to pursue a set, canon romance with a man.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,430
Canada
For MANY reasons, including the above and all alluded to, Lenneth is still one of my favorite videogame protagonists. Lenneth's path to understanding people is so much more dramatic and complicated than (for example) FF13's warrior-lead Lightning who stays tough because that's the way Lightning is and her BIG CHARACTER MOMENT is her SMILING because she LIKE NEVER DOES THAT AND THAT's PERSONAL GROWTH or something.... *raspeberry**


One of those figures I actively seeked out; I love collecting the characters I personally like :D
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Old noctis is def sexier.

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for fucking real. It's been so long since I've liked the look of an FF protag as much.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
There are in Innocent Sin. Not so much Eternal Punishment, one party member aside anyway.
50% is better than the no % the rest of the games are :P
Lenneth is also one of the only female characters I can think of who's allowed to pursue a set, canon romance with a man.
There are many characters that die as a result of their romance in Valkyrie Profile. Again, it's pretty different from most jRPGs. There are also a fair amount of older characters as well, male and female, including those in their late 60s.
 
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Azem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,005
Alas, she's only a supporting character, but The Last Remnant had Emma Honeywell, aged 41.

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And then she died and was replaced by her daughter. Oh, I'm sorry, did you think the old, battle-scarred woman would have a happy ending? No, she dies for her punk 19 year old king. Welcome to JRPGs.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
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Isn't FFVII's cast all adults instead of teenagers?

Even when Square does adult characters, they're in the 18-21 range. My dude Cecil is only 20, for instance.

If you wanted to stretch a bit, you have main characters in DQIV that are in their 40s and 50s in Ragnar and Torneko, but yeaaah. Kinda bad that that's the only example I can really think of.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Even when Square does adult characters, they're in the 18-21 range. My dude Cecil is only 20, for instance.

If you wanted to stretch a bit, you have main characters in DQIV that are in their 40s and 50s in Ragnar and Torneko, but yeaaah.
Yeah, you'll basically find no old characters in Square games, and even less old females.
For MANY reasons, including the above and all alluded to, Lenneth is still one of my favorite videogame protagonists. Lenneth's path to understanding people is so much more dramatic and complicated than (for example) FF13's warrior-lead Lightning who stays tough because that's the way Lightning is and her BIG CHARACTER MOMENT is her SMILING because she LIKE NEVER DOES THAT AND THAT's PERSONAL GROWTH or something.... *raspeberry**


One of those figures I actively seeked out; I love collecting the characters I personally like :D
HtoUZNn.png
She's definitely one of the most human characters I've ever played in a jRPG, but that's extremely ironic given that she's an immortal goddess.
 
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