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Debate regarding sexual harassment as male Korean reporter kissed by two women
- Thread starter Bleepey
- Start date
Learn to paragraph. But yes, all of this is correct.
You can't just "reverse the roles" and think everything is the same so the same rules apply.
Boys are being raised to be cold and emotion less and consequently, men are expected to not make a fuss about their self-experienced harrassment. In fact if, they would be shamed because they should "feel lucky" and what not. It is really disgusting.
People also laugh when they're comfortable all the time. Unless he says something we'll never know.
Sure, there is a long history of sexual harassment/assault committed by men, but that doesn't excuse a specific instance of sexual harassment/assault. And men care less about this on average (assuming they do) because there is social pressure for them to care less about being sexually harassed/assaulted, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.
Right, which is why nobody here is in any position to say that the man was totally cool with being kissed or not. But he probably wouldn't say anything even if he was uncomfortable, because the trend is that men keep that to themselves.
So we're not a position to say, but we're going to try and say anyway?
Again, he probably wouldn't say anything if he was comfortable either.
We're not in a position to say if the man was comfortable or uncomfortable. We are in a position to say that the women's behavior was bad.
Sounds like you've missed most of his talk about his experiences with sexual assault.
I have not. But it's not relevant regardless because from my very first post in this thread I've been saying harassment is harassment and it is wrong, so yeah.
Definitely harassment, but the reporter is free to make of it what he wishes. Without knowing his thoughts on the matter it's impossible to tell whether he felt violated or laughed it off. No doubt that there are different power dynamics in this situation than in the reverse though
I will agree that what they did was bad, where bad is represented by a scale and this item would fall on the lesser of possible bad things that could happen (unless he felt harassed).
Good lord this isnt that difficult people:
Victims of sexual harassment are always pressured to be "okay" with it. "No one was hurt in this particular scenario" is not an acceptable metric by which to evaluate what is or isnt appropriate.
Victims of sexual harassment are always pressured to be "okay" with it. "No one was hurt in this particular scenario" is not an acceptable metric by which to evaluate what is or isnt appropriate.
Rephrasing:
"I'm going to assume you liked it unless you say otherwise. BTW, society has certain expectations about what you're supposed to like and not like and if you don't conform you will be ostracised"
For me this is as stupid as when male sportspeople hit on female interviewers live on TV and then try to defend that shit because the interviewer had the good grace to laugh it off.
The cultural norms are essential to understand if something is harassment or not, that kind of kiss can be a normal interaction in some cultures. The way I see this is that is small harassment that shouldn't be repeated over time but can be forgiven if rare.
Repetition is the worst part of harassment.
Repetition is the worst part of harassment.
When people take arms over stuff like this, it's not just for the individual person in question. Yeah, it's lucky this guy wasn't seriously upset by this or anything, but a part of the reason people make waves over this is to make it socially unacceptable so it never happens to them. Also, incidents tend to vary, so making any and all uninvited kissing unacceptable leaves little room for grey areas that might otherwise get handwaved away.
Guy looks pleased as a pig in shit lol.
Of course if he's offended and/or distressed he should have every right to petition for justice.
Of course if he's offended and/or distressed he should have every right to petition for justice.
...then why did you use the exact line, "he'd crush me," that he explicitly talked about?
I watched the video and it was honestly horrifying. The man laughed because he was probably too nervous to cry.
I don't know if he liked it or not, or possibly doesn't give a shit on way or the other.
I mean that was sort of an embarassed/that just happened live on TV kind of laugh
Oh my god I regret getting into this argument. Because he's physically stronger than me. But I'm not siding with the harassers here nor saying what they did is okay and it should be obvious if you read the first, second, or any post I've made here.
It's not about whether he liked it or not and as I've already pointed out, the rules are different for men. Also, setting up the conversation in these terms gives tacit permission for such bullshit to happen again. The dude is trying to do his job. Getting hit on by drunk women shouldn't have to be part of that.
i wonder how it got that way.
Not like the other inequalities are instantly gonna be 'fixed' so this isn't the hill I'd die on for "equality" and "harassment" debates. It's not right, and the girls are being stupid/silly, but this isn't the historic landmark case in men's harassment either.
It's gross (I'd never ever kiss a stranger) but I'd rather keep focus on things like the shit Terry Crewes went through (where there was a power dynamic, where there was few options, where he did feel personally attacked, where justice never really came against his harasser, etc) than this.
Not sure I quite agree with that definition, but taking it as you defined it, is it possible he felt social pressure to not publicly show that he was pressured or intimidated much like, to use a previously mentioned example, Terry Crews was socially pressured to not reveal that he felt intimidated by the sexual harassment he faced?
I am aware the rules are different for men. I never argued otherwise. I was talking about his acceptance or not of the actions until you changed the topic to fit your direction, which I never was against to begin with.
Hand Waving the Thread ... Like fucking hell
Sexual assault is the same regardless of gender how hard isit to fucking comprehend
Sexual assault is the same regardless of gender how hard isit to fucking comprehend
Funny. So was I. Now that we understand each other can we please stop framing this discussion as being about whether he liked it or not or whether he felt harassed or not? Shit is unacceptable. Period.
Now Google search sexual harassment and paste that description since you only copied and pasted the definition for Harassment alone ...
On one hand, yes this is clear cut sexual harassment.
On the other hand... if people don't feel harassed or slighted when these sorts of things occur... then they're better off for it - in that they don't experience the harm of that harassment.
The more we sensitize ourselves to harassment the more harm we'll emotionally perceive from it, independent of the physical harm that might occur.
There's no easy answer to where the balance is between these two opposing values.
But the answer is in my feeling not at the extreme where everything is perceived as a slight or offense whether or not intended. That seems like a recipe for a society that allows the outrage of crowds to be directed like a weapon of random consequences.
On the other hand... if people don't feel harassed or slighted when these sorts of things occur... then they're better off for it - in that they don't experience the harm of that harassment.
The more we sensitize ourselves to harassment the more harm we'll emotionally perceive from it, independent of the physical harm that might occur.
There's no easy answer to where the balance is between these two opposing values.
But the answer is in my feeling not at the extreme where everything is perceived as a slight or offense whether or not intended. That seems like a recipe for a society that allows the outrage of crowds to be directed like a weapon of random consequences.
As a man, I don't think I would feel harrassed in a similar situation. Uncomfortable, yes, but it would be such a minor thing I'd brush it off in a moment. I may be biased, but I think the power dynamics and the way sexuality works between men and women make "flipping the sides" pretty much impossible. One thing is not like the other: a woman "forcing herself" on a man isn't the same kind of immediate thread. The physical act may be the same, but psychological effects are not. Not when it's such a small act such as a kiss on the cheek.
I've been "sexually harrassed" before. There was a girl who worked for me for a short period who started making advances and quite literally offered sex during worktime. I told her it wasn't fine and that nothing could happen while I was her employer, but I never told her I was made uncomfortable. She'd show up after worktime, she'd show up at my place in the middle of the night, she'd do a lot of things that would probably warrant police intervention if I wanted. But while I did not want anything to happen, I never felt "threatened". A part of it definitely depends on her being a gorgeous woman (and also a very sweet, intelligent and generous person), but it doesn't explain everything. I had someone sneaking up on me, going hands on, doing those things that, reported by a woman, would make my skin crawl. And I felt fine. Safe. Flattered, even.
And there may be something wrong with me, sure. And men can be victims and they can ba harrassed for sure. But I think there's differences between men and women in this regard, necessarily, and that triggers and threshold aren't the same.
I've been "sexually harrassed" before. There was a girl who worked for me for a short period who started making advances and quite literally offered sex during worktime. I told her it wasn't fine and that nothing could happen while I was her employer, but I never told her I was made uncomfortable. She'd show up after worktime, she'd show up at my place in the middle of the night, she'd do a lot of things that would probably warrant police intervention if I wanted. But while I did not want anything to happen, I never felt "threatened". A part of it definitely depends on her being a gorgeous woman (and also a very sweet, intelligent and generous person), but it doesn't explain everything. I had someone sneaking up on me, going hands on, doing those things that, reported by a woman, would make my skin crawl. And I felt fine. Safe. Flattered, even.
And there may be something wrong with me, sure. And men can be victims and they can ba harrassed for sure. But I think there's differences between men and women in this regard, necessarily, and that triggers and threshold aren't the same.
I'm not going to follow your directions after you put words in my mouth to align the conversation in the direction you wanted it to go. I said it was bad already.
I want to say they took the risk of committing sexual harassment without first garnering his consent, but then (it appears) he offered retroactive consent after the fact. It feels like that line of thought might be problematic though (such as running the risk of other scenarios where someone states there was retroactive consent to save face, and there really wasn't consent).
The lengths people are going to defend sexual assault .. laughing is retroactive consent .. it's amazing
Personally, I'd view it as harassment simply because it's a sexual advance that was not knowingly prompted by the individual. Does he retroactively accept the advance? Who knows, I can't crawl inside someone's mind and observe what their thoughts are in that moment. Is the power dynamic different between men and women? Of course, men historically have more social, political, and economic power backing them and therefore have been able to exert that power in insidious ways. Sexual harassment perpetrated by men therefore needs to be discussed and combated. But this doesn't somehow invalidate the seriousness of harassment experienced by victims who are men, LGBTQ, children, etc. Sexual harassment could occur to any individual, and all impacted are deserving of empathy and support. Ultimately, whether an individual is made uncomfortable, feels disempowered, or even combats it though legal means or otherwise is largely out of our hands. But that doesn't mean that we should hand wave it away or socially normalize it either.
The point isn't that he ended up enjoying it, it's that the women didn't spare a second to think "He may not enjoy this".
I think we need more kisses in this world, but we also need more asking wether they want to be kissed beforehand.
I think we need more kisses in this world, but we also need more asking wether they want to be kissed beforehand.
So only when the victim is pissed, it's not ok? People don't always portray what they are feeling or don't want to make an awkward/unwanted/unpleasant situation escalate into anything worse or just want to go ahead with what they were doing and just not think about it much, doesn't make it ok. It should still be called out.