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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Aliens has far, far better characterization with Ripley than any aspect of Titanic imo. Just because it didn't make people sob doesn't mean it's any less powerful in terms of creating a human character on screen.

I can understand what people like about Titanic, but for me it's where Cameron lost his spark. He'll always have his technical genius, but he lost his powerful characters here.

You can't create that type of emotion in an audience if they don't care about the characters.

The strength of his work on Titanic and Avatar beyond that is IMO you *feel* like you've gone to a different place for 2-3 hours. In Titanic you feel like you've been on that ship, you can almost smell the fresh paint. In Avatar you really feel at times like you are on Pandora. This is something I don't think many filmmakers can do.

I think he's taken that aspect of his filmmaking to another level.

Ripley is cool but she was also a pre-existing character, I like his Linda Hamilton character arc in T2 moreso to be honest.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,238
You can't create that type of emotion in an audience if they don't care about the characters.

The strength of his work on Titanic and Avatar beyond that is IMO you *feel* like you've gone to a different place for 2-3 hours. In Titanic you feel like you've been on that ship, you can almost smell the fresh paint. In Avatar you really feel at times like you are on Pandora. This is something I don't think many filmmakers can do.

I think he's taken that aspect of his filmmaking to another level.

Ripley is cool but she was also a pre-existing character, I like his Linda Hamilton character arc in T2 moreso to be honest.

Being a pre-existing character takes 0 from the strength of the crafting in terms of where Cameron took her.

Avatar and Titanic are just flat in comparison to the character work in his earlier works, the fact the masses bawled doesn't really lend the argument the weight you think it does imo.
 
Oct 28, 2017
799
The Terminator. Just a great film, the vibe and noir mood of it just works so well with the simplicity of the story. T2 is bombastic and a great spectacle, but the first film is Cameron's best imo.
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
I'm one of those weirdos who preferred the theatrical Aliens and Abyss.

Directors cut of Aliens just seemed so much slower paced, and Abyss was like they jammed in bits from a whole other movie taking you out of the isolation/immersion.

But yeah, Terminator (1), Aliens and Abyss are among my favourite films.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Being a per-existing character takes 0 from the strength of the crafting in terms of where Cameron took her.

Avatar and Titanic are just flat in comparison to the character work in his earlier works, the fact the masses bawled doesn't really lend the argument the weight you think it does imo.

If it was easy to elicit that kind of emotion from an audience, everyone would do it and go cash a $1.8 billion dollar cheque, so I think you are understating the impact of Titanic considerably. Generally character depth is not really Cameron's strong suit.His film's are not really about "character" so much as they are about the journey (often times amazing) that the characters go on. Often times the characters are just Joe/Jane Average.

I know some people don't want to admit it, but Titanic probably is the most iconic Hollywood film of the last 25-30 years. I don't think anything else is really even that close. It is the last hurrah in a lot of ways of the classic Hollywood "epic" married with modern tech and filmmaking scope.
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
Terminator is a perfect film, Terminator 2 is a perfect action film.

Terminator
Aliens
Terminator 2
(Strange Days, he didn't direct but it's his best script by far)
The Abyss
True Lies
Piranha II
Avatar
Titanic
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,238
I'm one of those weirdos who preferred the theatrical Aliens and Abyss.

Directors cut of Aliens just seemed so much slower paced, and Abyss was like they jammed in bits from a whole other movie taking you out of the isolation/immersion.

You're not weird.

Aliens theatrical cut is superior, imo. It's a masterclass in pacing.

The DC is fun for fans, but none of the extra scenes add anything the film was lacking. The one exception being the scene between Ripley and Burke regarding Ripley's daughter, which adds to the mother/daughter dynamic of her and Newt, but even then the TC gets that across perfectly well.


If it was easy to elicit that kind of emotion from an audience, everyone would do it and go cash a $1.8 billion dollar cheque, so I think you are understating the impact of Titanic considerably. Generally character depth is not really Cameron's strong suit.His film's are not really about "character" so much as they are about the journey (often times amazing) that the characters go on. Often times the characters are just Joe/Jane Average.

I know some people don't want to admit it, but Titanic probably is the most iconic Hollywood film of the last 25-30 years. I don't think anything else is really even that close. It is the last hurrah in a lot of ways of the classic Hollywood "epic" married with modern tech and filmmaking scope.

It was the mix of emotional stuff and technical marvel that did it, not just the emotional stuff... which wasn't anything special.

The technical stuff is absolutely stunning, which is pretty much what carried the entire film. Take always all of Cameron's masterful effects, direction, etc.. and the film would have done nowhere near those numbers.

There's literally nothing to "admit", lol.

And your assessment of Cameron's character writing is correct... from Titanic onward. It's been downhill, yeh.

Many of his earlier works included some incredible character writing, but he lost it as he grew older unfortunately.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,238
Aliens, followed by T1. T2 is cool but it's just a remake of T1 with a budget.

T2 is, like Aliens, a perfect escalation of the first film. It's nowhere near "just a remake".

The nature of the design of Terminators, time travel, and how Skynet operates means makes the repetitions feel like natural extensions imo.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
You're not weird.

Aliens theatrical cut is superior, imo. It's a masterclass in pacing.

The DC is fun for fans, but none of the extra scenes add anything the film was lacking. The one exception being the scene between Ripley and Burke regarding Ripley's daughter, which adds to the mother/daughter dynamic of her and Newt, but even then the TC gets that across perfectly well.




It was the mix of emotional stuff and technical marvel that did it, not just the emotional stuff... which wasn't anything special.

The technical stuff is absolutely stunning, which is pretty much what carried the entire film. Take always all of Cameron's masterful effects, direction, etc.. and the film would have done nowhere near those numbers.

There's literally nothing to "admit", lol.

And your assessment of Cameron's character writing is correct... from Titanic onward. It's been downhill, yeh.

Many of his earlier works included some incredible character writing, but he lost it as he grew older unfortunately.

I don't think any of his characters are really that complex. Sarah Connor is a plain Jane waitress. John Connor is your fairly standard some what annoying, smart alleck 13 year old kid who doesn't listen to his parents.

It's actually part of what I think makes his movies work so well ... there's not a lot to "get" about the characters. You get the jist of them very quickly ... what he's good at doing is making those characters likable and the "bad guys" sufficiently unlikable or terrifying.

I think excessive character depth would actually hinder his films, it's about putting those characters into extreme situations and pushing them to a breaking point ... like being 100 vertical feet in the air, clinging to life on a ship that's rapidly sinking to freezing water.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,238
I don't think any of his characters are really that complex. Sarah Connor is a plain Jane waitress. John Connor is your fairly standard some what annoying, smart alleck 13 year old kid who doesn't listen to his parents.

It's actually part of what I think makes his movies work so well ... there's not a lot to "get" about the characters. You get the jist of them very quickly ... what he's good at doing is making those characters likable and the "bad guys" sufficiently unlikable or terrifying.

I think excessive character depth would actually hinder his films, it's about putting those characters into extreme situations and pushing them to a breaking point ... like being 100 vertical feet in the air, clinging to life on a ship that's rapidly sinking to freezing water.

Sarah is incredibly complex. She goes from naive, innocent, inexperienced waitress to battle hardened soldier, which is a compelling arc in itself, but the real meat of her character is the way her trauma develops into a mental illness - both natural via the PTSD, and force upon her by a system that cannot believe her fantastic tale and helps install/enhance her mental health issues. Her constant struggle with her knowledge of the future and her own humanity is a huge reason why T2 is such a great film.

It's just incredible writing.

Ripley has similar character aspects but different strengths, but really the strength of his earlier characters lies in the realistic way they react to the fantastic premise of their surrounding stories. Even his less complex characters adhere to this.

Even if he's playing an AI, Cameron's strength of writing and direction for his character got an incredible turn out of Arnold... which was easily his career highlight and not something any other director has been able to do to the same degree.

It really is second to none in the genre.

Titanic doesn't have this, the characters and acting are part of package, but the real star in that film is the technical wonder of his filmmaking.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,687

Jeff compared T2 to Robocop 2. I can never see Jeff the same again.

I'm not surprised Ryckert thinks T3 is better than T1 though. That guy just has awful opinions.

Well, there's also the original concept for the aliens as described by Alien co-writer Dan O'Bannon, who described his and Scott's vision for the Aliens as being a society:


Further confirming that the Xeno was never meant to be this weird space ant/bee until Cameron rewrote them to be like that.

This is fucking bizarre. What is the space jockey supposed to be then?
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,931
So hard because his filmography is incredible.

Gotta go with Titanic. I feel that everything he's done was leading up to that movie and he knocked it out of the fucking park. Every frame is iconic.

Against all odds he pulled out a masterpiece.
 

bshock

Self-requested permanent ban
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
1,394
T2 is his best by a large margin. Aliens and True Lies runners up.
 

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,826
I would have said Terminator 2 growing up. But watching The Terminator recently, it wins. Just a non-stop thrill ride that was so gritty and well made. Terminator 2 and Aliens are runners up for me.
 

Tito

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,030
T1 is a true classic, whereas T2 is a good movie of the time, but in recent rewatching it hasn't held up as well.

At least True Lies caught up to Avatar in the poll.
 

Haloid1177

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,537
I thought I was gonna go T2, but ended up with Aliens, and I think that's just because I much prefer the Alien franchise to Terminator as a whole.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,413
Aliens is his most successful blend of taut thriller conventions that ramp up in intensity, action setpieces, and hard edged female action hero that marks much of his work.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,523
James Cameron did True Lies? Huh. Never knew that.

For me it'd be a tie between T2 and Aliens.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,158
Terminator 2 with Aliens a very, very, very close second.

T2 is a masterclass of action cinema and pretty much set the bar for what action films have been ever since. You've got Schwarzenegger at his peak, VFX and SFX ahead of everything else out there (and that inspired how many films and adverts?!), Edward Furlong, Linda Hamilton as one the greatest female leads in action cinema - alongside Ripley in Aliens funnily enough! - and still some of the greatest action scenes ever shot that are classics to this day. Even now the helicopter chase are police shootouts are still phenomenal, even after 27 years.
 

IMACOMPUTA

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,559
Terminator 2, hands down.
Unmatched practical effects, some of the best character development in an action movie, and its fucking bad ass in every way. <3
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,497
T2 for me

Aliens would be a close second though. I love everything he's made though to varying degrees except true lies (and even that is aiight)
 

Deleted member 4413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,238
Just watched T2 yesterday for the hundreth time.

Best is probably either T2 or Aliens, with Avatar coming in at 3rd.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
Rewatching his best work lately, I'd say Aliens holds up the best. There is some really rough edges on T1, although it's still a lot of fun. T2 is much better technically, with a few things that you can't unsee, like Arnie's terrible stunt double on the Moto bridge jump (I mean he's obviously an awesome stunt performer, but he looked ridiculously goofy trying to look like Ahnold).

The Abyss is underrated imho, but :

Aliens > T2 > T1 > True Lies > Abyss > Titanic > Pirahna 2 > Avatar
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
They're all awesome, but it would have to be between Aliens and Terminator 2.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,324
Aliens by a country mile!

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Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
Hmm ? The consensus is that the theatrical version of Aliens is the best version.
By a long ass way.
The sentry guns are cool, but Paxton's delivery in the ultimate bad ass scene is really bad.
And it's pains me to say that as I love Paxton, the TC was lean and mean and didn't need the scenes cut.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,764
I wish there was a special cut of Aliens you could get with bits like the extra backstory on Ridley's daughter and the sentry gun scene in and the rest... not.

The stuff with Ridley's daughter actually makes the movie for me. It completely sheds a new light on her relationship with Newt.