Sakurai: players “gave up on Melee because it’s too technical", won't focus too much on competitive

Ghost305 · Jul 9, 2018

Iztok Mravlja said:
See, people always say that but don't elaborate. Why don't they lend well to competitive play? Because they insert a tad of randomness to the proceedings? So what.

People don't like to lose, so they make up rules to ensure they minimise that possibility.

Funniest thing is how out of date these arguments are.

Many often reference the random exploding capsule as the biggest reason items are banned, when Smash 4 allows you to turn them off (believe Brawl did too). Nothing changed. Wonder why?

It also seems fairly obvious that Sakurai would probably be more accepting of Smash's "competitive" scene if tournament rules even slightly resembled what Smash Bros actually is. I certainly wouldn't be proud of a comm. that removed half of the content I developed in tourneys because of ego rather than logic.

jviggy43 · Jul 9, 2018

Ghost305 said:
Funniest thing is how out of date these arguments are.

Many often reference the random exploding capsule as the biggest reason items are banned, when Smash 4 allows you to turn them off (believe Brawl did too). Nothing changed. Wonder why?

It also seems fairly obvious that Sakurai would probably be more accepting of Smash's "competitive" scene if tournament rules even slightly resembled what Smash Bros actually is. I certainly wouldn't be proud of a comm. that removed half of the content I developed in tourneys because of ego rather than logic.

Calling the removal of items egotistical as opposed to logical is of the more embarrassing arguments I've seen used in here.

Village · Jul 9, 2018

jviggy43 said:
Calling the removal of items egotistical as opposed to logical is of the more embarrassing arguments I've seen used in here.

Its not particularly uncommon for fighting games or competitive games in general. Trying to play a game on some higher level of skill is seen as egotistical or condescending to some , "try hard" is a term that has spawned out of that mindset.

Kenstar · Jul 9, 2018

Please fill in the blank:
I'd totally place in the tourney if those (((TRY HARDS))) didnt _____,circumventing sakurai-sensei's perfect vision

Choices:

turn off items
tech chase
power shield
edgeguard
ban stage hazards
SHFFL
dash dance
try so damn hard lol is just game

jviggy43 · Jul 9, 2018

Honestly they shouldn't even keep track of who wins or loses lest it be too egotistical of a game.

The Watcher · Jul 9, 2018

Rutger said:
I do think you are generally right, but the way it's often said in these kinds of threads comes off as condescending, as a way to brush aside people rather than to have a discussion.

The game itself and the community who cultivated it is one of a kind. No one could have predicted that Melee's design would lead to competitive play that leads to a following that spans near 20 years. Not only does this game have it's own Cons and tournaments, but it's one of the premier spotlights of this upcoming Evo and still being discussed with reverence in the wake of a new iteration. Melee is an anomaly, so much so that it's probably the first fighter to have a splintered fanbase and still have enough members in each to stay relevant (and still growing?). I'm sure you understand how interesting it is to have a game that is still celebrated despite multiple successors, imitators, and hacks and the fans keep on ticking. I and others would ask why stick with it so long, but I'm sure we know the answer.

Whales · Jul 9, 2018

*enters thread*
*sees people saying competitive smash should have items on*

uhhhhhhh alrighty then

Its trulya shame sakurai doesnt care about comp. it doesnt mean the game has to be made for the competitive minority, it just means it could have more comp elements ( like more gravity and hitstun, stuff that wont make your hands break while playing at a high level)

Sebastopa · Jul 9, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
Melee can only be replaced if they actually want to replace it. As evidenced by Sakurais comments in this very interview, that's not likely to ever happen.

But isn't that was Sakurai is doing with Ultimate? he added freaking directional airdodges for crying out loud! He may be saying that, but it's clear that he's pushing for cathering to the Melee crowd by turning the gameplay into a more offensive oriented game and it shows, Zero has said so, Armada too. Smash Ultimate, as the name implies, pretends to be the game that unifies the fanbases, no one likes seeing two Smash games being played in tournaments, specially when one of those is limited to Old CRT TVs.

Space Hunter said:
Sure, some of the top players aren't as motivated as in the past, but it's worth noting that Hbox didn't win the three biggest tournaments this year: Genesis (Plup), Summit (Mew2King), Smash'n Splash (Armada). Then you have the up and comers like Zain, Crush, llod who always bring the hype.

Viewership is still growing, although not exponentially as it was in 2016, and tournament attendance is stable.

In my opinion the content gap was already "too wide" with Smash 4. I'm not saying that Melee players aren't going to give Ultimate a chance, but I can't see anyone dropping Melee if not for a month or two. We'll see, I guess.

Yes, but HB has definitely made it to the finals in most of them, causing many matches to be centered around countering puff, it's honestly pretty boring to watch. If the content gap was already too wide with Smash 4, then Ultimate just makes any comparison with melee look like a Joke. I honestly hope that Melee players finally make the jump to a more modern game and I don't even dislike the Melee competitive scene!

Sami said:
What? Melee viewership and attendance has slowed, but is not in anywhere near as sharp as a decline as Smash 4 has been all year. Again, Smash 4 was dying months before Ultimate was even announced - you can look at the viewership and attendance numbers yourself. Smash 4, even at it's peak, has always been second to Melee in popularity. They went back and forth in attendance (but not anymore), but viewership has literally always favored Melee by a large margin.

My point is that, again, Smash 4 was not a perfect balance of anything. It remains to be seen if Ultimate will be, if it is that's great. But Smash 4 was not that, and again I say that as someone who competed in Smash 4 and not Melee.

Difference is, Smash 4's decline is ammendable through Smash Ultimate because of the superficial similarities of the Two, Melee is not and will continue through a downward spiral until somehow someone discover new better techs which is starting to get progressively harder as the game gets older. People into Smash 4 were probably just anticipating Ultimate to appear before, "Getting tired from it" but if Smash 4 was truly the last game with that kind of gameplay I'm pretty sure it would stay alive the same way as Melee, probably less popular because lol Wii U but still relevant.

JakeNoseIt · Jul 9, 2018

I think items are just kinda visually distracting and don't compliment the momentum in 1 v 1 competitive Smash matches.

Smash balls on the other hand... I just miss seeing Final Smashes and they look so neat in this game!

NotLiquid · Jul 9, 2018

Sami said:
What? Melee viewership and attendance has slowed, but is not in anywhere near as sharp as a decline as Smash 4 has been all year. Again, Smash 4 was dying months before Ultimate was even announced - you can look at the viewership and attendance numbers yourself. Smash 4, even at it's peak, has always been second to Melee in popularity. They went back and forth in attendance (but not anymore), but viewership has literally always favored Melee by a large margin.

Smash 4's two latest majors, CEO 2018 and 2GG Hyrule Saga, saw 679 entries and 780 entrants respectively - the latter being an increase over early 2017's extremely advertised 2GG Civil War, which had 753 entrants, and the former tournament still saw more Smash 4 entrants than Melee entrants.

Viewer numbers isn't something I'm going to get into debating because it's flexible and a lot of times it comes down to specific tournaments and time schedules (EVO 2016 had more Smash 4 viewers than Melee viewers because it was better placed), but the notion that Smash 4's attendance is declining is only true in as much as entrants aren't so stupidly disproportionate as they were at one time. But on average both games rack up better numbers depending on which major that it's pointless to compare Melee having better ones than Smash 4 when a case can be made that Smash 4 is still seeing equally comparable, and at times better attendance. Smash 4 may be declining, but it's far from dead yet.

Shola Akinnuso · Jul 9, 2018

Zombine said:
He's been echoing this since he made Brawl frustrating just for the sake of adding in crappy mechanics. At its heart, I feel like the melee tournament scene and content present in that game is what gave the series the legs it did. "I hope this one is like Melee!" Has been another sentiment for years, not because people want a game exactly like Melee, but because they want a game that can be mined for depth for years to come. I'm not one of these guys who actively participates in high end play, but I absolutely understand where they're coming from, and he should focus on mechanics for those that want them, and bonus content and items for those who just want to jerk around with their favorite Nintendo characters. I don't think adding tripping or isolating those that are still playing your games years later is the way to go.

Completely agree with this post. I follow the Street Fighter scene, and I feel like when you start shifting the mechanics of the game for the casual audience, you're cheating those who are interested in the joy of discovery, and you're compromising the hardcore who play competitively. Casual fans really really complained about the lack of arcade and story mode at launch. When Capcom added in later, it made not one bit of difference to that base or the press. Chasing that fickle market by way of changing the game is NOT the way to win.

A Syrian Communist · Jul 9, 2018

NotLiquid said:
Smash 4's two latest majors, CEO 2018 and 2GG Hyrule Saga, saw 679 entries and 780 entrants respectively - the latter being an increase over early 2017's extremely advertised 2GG Civil War, which had 753 entrants, and the former tournament still saw more Smash 4 entrants than Melee entrants.

Viewer numbers isn't something I'm going to get into debating because it's flexible and a lot of times it comes down to specific tournaments and time schedules (EVO 2016 had more Smash 4 viewers than Melee viewers because it was better placed), but the notion that Smash 4's attendance is declining is only true in as much as entrants aren't so stupidly disproportionate as they were at one time. But on average both games rack up better numbers depending on which major that it's pointless to compare Melee having better ones than Smash 4 when a case can be made that Smash 4 is still seeing equally comparable, and at times better attendance. Smash 4 may be declining, but it's far from dead yet.

Interesting, I didn't see the numbers from CEO and Hyrule Saga. Fair enough in that case, maybe Ultimate played a hand in revitalizing enthusiasm in the scene a bit. I unfollowed most of the big Smash 4 figures on Twitter a few months ago so my understanding of the viewership/attendance is out of date. Everyone talking about the scene dying and arguing what was to blame was literally the last thing I saw before I left.

Space Hunter · Jul 9, 2018

Sebastopa said:
But isn't that was Sakurai is doing with Ultimate? he added freaking directional airdodges for crying out loud! He may be saying that, but it's clear that he's pushing for cathering to the Melee crowd by turning the gameplay into a more offensive oriented game and it shows, Zero has said so, Armada too. Smash Ultimate, as the name implies, pretends to be the game that unifies the fanbases, no one likes seeing two Smash games being played in tournaments, specially when one of those is limited to Old CRT TVs.

I mean, it's not just a matter of individual mechanics being added back in ("wavedash or death!" is pretty much a meme), it's about the feel of the game.
Smash Ultimate, in its current build, seems to encourage more offensive play in the neutral and off-stage, but the combo game is still miles away from Melee, and that's mainly what Melee players are so attached to. Hitstun is still low and the new knockback system makes combos harder.
Nintendo being open to suggestions from top players is definitely a good sign, but if the game doesn't change much at all from the current build to release I just can't see anyone dropping Melee for good.

Yes, but HB has definitely made it to the finals in most of them, causing many matches to be centered around countering puff, it's honestly pretty boring to watch. If the content gap was already too wide with Smash 4, then Ultimate just makes any comparison with melee look like a Joke. I honestly hope that Melee players finally make the jump to a more modern game and I don't even dislike the Melee competitive scene!

I mean, Smash 4 ended up having less legal tournament legal stages than Melee, and that's the definition of a joke if you ask me. Of course that's not gonna happen with Ultimate, but more game content doesn't always translate to more options in a competitive setting.

Difference is, Smash 4's decline is ammendable through Smash Ultimate because of the superficial similarities of the Two, Melee is not and will continue through a downward spiral until somehow someone discover new better techs which is starting to get progressively harder as the game gets older. People into Smash 4 were probably just anticipating Ultimate to appear before, "Getting tired from it" but if Smash 4 was truly the last game with that kind of gameplay I'm pretty sure it would stay alive the same way as Melee, probably less popular because lol Wii U but still relevant.

Melee also has a new documentary coming out relatively soon, and we know what the first one did for the scene. Additionally, Melee is back to having the Sunday spot for top 8 at Evo. Who knows what 2019 and beyond holds, but for now I wouldn't worry too much about the longevity of the Melee scene.

Smash 4 players have been ranting about the game since the very beginning, and the DLC characters only made things worse. It's very much a love-hate relationship with the game, at this point. I don't think it would be remembered fondly at all, if not for the huge roster.

Lyon N. Laap · Jul 9, 2018

There's no way that Melee players en masse will jump to Ultimate. The experience with Brawl, and the death of PM, has done a lot to inure to the community that the direction the series has taken since Brawl is not one that caters to their particular niche. Which is fine. There's nothing wrong to sticking to what you like, and there's more than enough interest in the game both from a spectator and sponsor point of view to keep it going for quite a time longer. Melee has life in it yet, and there's no real point to complain that its still around when so much for so many people still rides on the game.

The only issue is members of the Smash community putting other members of the community merely because they play a different game. Competitive players don't get to judge people for wanting to play the game vanilla (as the vast majority of Smash players will), and likewise people need to accept that competitive formats exist for Smash and are officially supported by Nintendo. Just as bad is the judgement of others for playing a different game, and I'll admit as an avid Melee fan that the Melee community can be much worse about this both online and in person. Sakurai has a vision for Ultimate that has different priorities than what Melee fans might hope for, but that's ok, because we still have Melee.

I do think it's kind of a stretch to say that people stopped playing Melee because of technical barriers though. This was before online multiplayer was a thing, and unless you were actively searching out for the scene when the game was still relevant in the mainstream eye, there was likely no way you would have encountered a huge skill gap borne by hard technical skill. If anything, I came back to Melee many years after I had dropped it when I was introduced to the competitive scene in 2012.

NotLiquid · Jul 9, 2018

Sami said:
Interesting, I didn't see the numbers from CEO and Hyrule Saga. Fair enough in that case, maybe Ultimate played a hand in revitalizing enthusiasm in the scene a bit. I unfollowed most of the big Smash 4 figures on Twitter a few months ago so my understanding of the viewership/attendance is out of date. Everyone talking about the scene dying and arguing what was to blame was literally the last thing I saw before I left.

There's probably a nugget of truth in that (I haven't gone far back enough to look at attendant numbers before Ultimate was announced). Overall though it felt like with ZeRo's retirement and the rise of the "Bayometa" that rumors of the game's demise were greatly exaggerated. Despite the fact that a lot of people were under the impression that character representation was becoming so oppressive and a lot of top players picked up Bayonetta as a pocket, extremely few tournaments have been won by solo-Bayo mains and in terms of the overall picture it actually looks pretty decent all things considered. This is generally why MKLeo and Tweek are now considered the two best players since they're extremely flexible about their character pools. The only real thing that's happened in the meta as far as I'm aware is we don't really see Diddy Kong anymore.

The only thing that feels like it's killing the Smash community right now is itself (or the stream monsters I suppose). Smash 4 "dying" to me has always just felt like an element perpetuated by natural causes; dominant strategy takes hold, several characters become more abundant than others, players assert dominance, etc. just like with every other fighting game, but it seemed worse on the onset because of an extreme amount of Bayonetta scapegoating, despite the fact that her overall ratio of results to representation only looked bad in a vacuum (there was some chart on SmashBoards about her overall rep in recent tourneys), and I still kind of blame ZeRo for the mythmaking on that one given how he has some extremely impressionable fans. The Smash community has real issues when it comes to acknowledging the skills of players rather than pointing at advantages of characters. It got to a point when VoiD actually told people to shut up about her, and despite most top players saying she's been very notably nerfed as is going into Ultimate, ZeRo is still playing the pied piper.

Xtortion · Jul 9, 2018

Whales said:
Its trulya shame sakurai doesnt care about comp. it doesnt mean the game has to be made for the competitive minority, it just means it could have more comp elements ( like more gravity and hitstun, stuff that wont make your hands break while playing at a high level)

Breh. Sakurai cares very much about competitive players. Ultimate's effort to enhance the competitive eSports experience shits all over the previous games.

-Bluntly communicated mechanics changes (less landing lag across the board, do anything out of a dash, deteriorating dodges, directional air dodge) that address competitive community feedback to make the game faster, more fluid, and maybe even a bit closer to Melee: Check

-The communication of niche information (0.X%, blast zone maps) that casual players will not give a single shit about: Check

-Quality of life features (stage hazard toggle, Battlefield forms, select stage before characters) to optimize competitive rulesets: Check

-Presentation features (Versus screen, score display when a stock is lost in 1v1) to enhance the spectator experience: Check

Ultimate supports competitive play of the box a thousand times better than any Smash before it. Sakurai not wanting to implement the technical skill ceiling of Melee does not mean that the game is ignoring the competitive scene. I think people are misreading his comments hard.

Auto · Jul 9, 2018

Daouzin said:
Yup, this is the first thing competitive Smash players learn haha.

Seriously though, 50+ hours. I straight up hate Brawl and I probably have at least 200 hours in that. Competitive Smash players easily have 1,000+ hours in their favorite Smash games (Melee I got 5,000+ and that's a conservative estimate). Which is partly why I wonder why casuals even have an opinion haha. Like I love all the DMC games, I've played through all of them twice, but if someone is getting SSS combos in DMC 3 and has youtube videos dedicated to that shit, I'm trusting that guy on how it should play. They fucking love that game.

There is no intended way to play the game, though. You could say wavedashing is a big part of Melee, but that was apparently a happy accident.

Sebastopa · Jul 9, 2018

Space Hunter said:
I mean, it's not just a matter of individual mechanics being added back in ("wavedash or death!" is pretty much a meme), it's about the feel of the game.
Smash Ultimate, in its current build, seems to encourage more offensive play in the neutral and off-stage, but the combo game is still miles away from Melee, and that's mainly what Melee players are so attached to. Hitstun is still low and the new knockback system makes combos harder.
Nintendo being open to suggestions from top players is definitely a good sign, but if the game doesn't change much at all from the current build to release I just can't see anyone dropping Melee for good.

I mean, Smash 4 ended up having less legal tournament legal stages than Melee, and that's the definition of a joke if you ask me. Of course that's not gonna happen with Ultimate, but more game content doesn't always translate to more options in a competitive setting.

Melee also has a new documentary coming out relatively soon, and we know what the first one did for the scene. Additionally, Melee is back to having the Sunday spot for top 8 at Evo. Who knows what 2019 and beyond holds, but for now I wouldn't worry too much about the longevity of the Melee scene.

Smash 4 players have been ranting about the game since the very beginning, and the DLC characters only made things worse. It's very much a love-hate relationship with the game, at this point. I don't think it would be remembered fondly at all, if not for the huge roster.

The metagame in Ultimate has not been sufficiently developed to make that assertion yet, combos will be teched over time, they just won't be done the same way as melee, hitstun is still small and launches are pretty wide, but the character's horizontal speed has also been enhanced, which would fix the biggest complaint for Smash 4 being Slow KOs

Unless the competitive scene for Ultimate becomes the strictest it's ever been, there's no way Ultimate will have less competitively viable Characters and Stages than Melee, Battlefield mode, Hazard toggle, balance patches, all of those will ensure that, which could potentially make this the most varied smash game ever, with some genuine depth to be found in every character.

DLC characters and a lack of effective patches therefore certainly damaged the competitive scene for Smash 4, but you also have to remember just how toxic the scene had been in general, as well as the absurd amount of restrictions that killed any chances of Smash 4 having some depth. No custom moves, no Mii fighters, no Omega Stages and way more bans that were made with barely any legitimate arguments. And this is from the same people that allowed freaking Pokefloats on the Melee days. If Smash Ultimate can improve this aspect and the community eases out a bit on the BS it will not be as divisively received as Smash 4 or Brawl and will have the potential to finally replace Melee for good to a majority of players.

Rutger · Jul 9, 2018

Sebastopa said:
The metagame in Ultimate has not been sufficiently developed to make that assertion yet, combos will be teched over time, they just won't be done the same way as melee, hitstun is still small and launches are pretty wide, but the character's horizontal speed has also been enhanced, which would fix the biggest complaint for Smash 4 being Slow KOs

What will help with KOs is probably more so the changes to recovery that will allow for slightly stronger edgeguarding.

The change to knockback...
Doesn't seem to be an increase, rather we will be sent to the point where we can act sooner. Probably won't mean quicker KOs if that's it, or worse, makes combos harder since our opponent will be sent too far, which may make it take longer to get them to KO percents...

Well, that's just speculation for now, but I do hope things are tweaked for a slightly stronger combo game before release.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 9, 2018

Sebastopa said:
But isn't that was Sakurai is doing with Ultimate? he added freaking directional airdodges for crying out loud! He may be saying that, but it's clear that he's pushing for cathering to the Melee crowd by turning the gameplay into a more offensive oriented game and it shows, Zero has said so, Armada too. Smash Ultimate, as the name implies, pretends to be the game that unifies the fanbases, no one likes seeing two Smash games being played in tournaments, specially when one of those is limited to Old CRT TVs.

Yes, but HB has definitely made it to the finals in most of them, causing many matches to be centered around countering puff, it's honestly pretty boring to watch. If the content gap was already too wide with Smash 4, then Ultimate just makes any comparison with melee look like a Joke. I honestly hope that Melee players finally make the jump to a more modern game and I don't even dislike the Melee competitive scene!

Difference is, Smash 4's decline is ammendable through Smash Ultimate because of the superficial similarities of the Two, Melee is not and will continue through a downward spiral until somehow someone discover new better techs which is starting to get progressively harder as the game gets older. People into Smash 4 were probably just anticipating Ultimate to appear before, "Getting tired from it" but if Smash 4 was truly the last game with that kind of gameplay I'm pretty sure it would stay alive the same way as Melee, probably less popular because lol Wii U but still relevant.

The name of this very thread should be enough of a clue. Having directional air dodging isn't 1% of what made melee good, and from what we know already this new airdodge cannot be used to waveland or wavedash which was the main thing people wanted from that addition (even ZeRo wants wavedashing). The smash 4 players will likely move to it, but Armada, M2K etc all call it Smash 4.5 because of how similar it plays to Smash 4 and not Melee.

You don't need to just watch grand finals to enjoy watching the game, not that I believe that you follow it at all.
Do you follow any of the other top or likable players? watch any of the rest of Top64? Doubles? no, because like everyone else its easier to just say "but hbox won" and act like that invalidates the rest of an event.

Daouzin · Jul 9, 2018

Auto said:
There is no intended way to play the game, though. You could say wavedashing is a big part of Melee, but that was apparently a happy accident.

I meant it in terms of time investment. If a whole community is investing 1,000+ hours of game time on a game because they love it! I played it competitively before eSports, we were all broke AF, including Mango, and we kept doing it because it's the best. Just saying people that have that much love for something, must see something special, why not nurture that?

The Watcher said:
Let's say I do well in my local Smash tourney at Gamestop, it definitely wouldn't allow me the same success at Evo or the other major tournaments that are dominated by Melee vets who've been with the game since it's grassroots beginnings. (If you could name me a young newcomer to the game killing it right now, I'll eat crow)
All I'm saying is that it's not that simple.

To me this argument is just proof of how well designed Melee is. Commitment and dedication and skill should be all that matters. Consistency in results is what proves a game is good and not random.

Village said:
Its not particularly uncommon for fighting games or competitive games in general. Trying to play a game on some higher level of skill is seen as egotistical or condescending to some , "try hard" is a term that has spawned out of that mindset.

I wouldn't associate trying to be good at something as egotistical, and if we are, then that's fine, I guess, but then being egotistical isn't a negative and that's kind of a weird world view to tell people to have lol. If someone legitimately complains about someone else trying to be good at something, that person is a straight up scrub. Why shouldn't we try to be better at the stuff were doing?

I actually love Scrub Quotes and recommend this twitter account. Makes my day at least 3 times a week.

https://twitter.com/ScrubQuotesX

This is by far and away an exploit and has no business being in the game. Could you imagine if you're playing in a tournament with money on the line and you lose the ace match because your opponent used an exploit that you didn't know about?

Seriously, these are so good. If you're that far in a bracket and don't know all the exploits, I'm sorry, but you don't deserve to win. Someone more dedicated and more in love with the game then you, 100% knows that stuff, haha. These people.

Also, LOL at the term exploit.

Sebastopa · Jul 9, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
The name of this very thread should be enough of a clue. Having directional air dodging isn't 1% of what made melee good, and from what we know already this new airdodge cannot be used to waveland or wavedash which was the main thing people wanted from that addition (even ZeRo wants wavedashing). The smash 4 players will likely move to it, but Armada, M2K etc all call it Smash 4.5 because of how similar it plays to Smash 4 and not Melee.

You don't need to just watch grand finals to enjoy watching the game, not that I believe that you follow it at all.
Do you follow any of the other top or likable players? watch any of the rest of Top64? Doubles? no, because like everyone else its easier to just say "but hbox won" and act like that invalidates the rest of an event.

And that's where the narrative becomes complicated, no one is asking for Melee 2.0, Smash Ultimate can be different from it and still be a desirable game from a competitive standpoint and many top players are saying that, directional airdodges are just but one example on how to make the game more offensively oriented, making way to faster KOs, which was one of Smash 4's weakest points, it doesn't need to copy melee again to appeal to that community and I'm sure some people will just never move on from melee but come on, if you had a chance to jump to a far more diverse and content rich experience with updated graphics, why wouldn't you do it?

I said before I'm not following the competitive community anymore because I got bored from it, can you really blame me if the most watched streams happen to have HB in the front? As well as the Fox/Falco mains that plague the events?

BasilZero · Jul 9, 2018

I gave up Melee cause it was old and moved on to the newer ones.

There's still some people who play it though that I know lol

Daouzin · Jul 9, 2018

BasilZero said:
I gave up Melee cause it was old and moved on to the newer ones.

There's still some people who play it though that I know lol

Cool Story Bro,

I also never play games released before July 4th 2018 because they are old and I only play new games.

DOT_mjo · Jul 9, 2018

Competitive COD could learn a thing or two from Sakurai.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 9, 2018

Sebastopa said:
And that's where the narrative becomes complicated, no one is asking for Melee 2.0, Smash Ultimate can be different from it and still be a desirable game from a competitive standpoint and many top players are saying that, directional airdodges are just but one example on how to make the game more offensively oriented, making way to faster KOs, which was one of Smash 4's weakest points, it doesn't need to copy melee again to appeal to that community and I'm sure some people will just never move on from melee but come on, if you had a chance to jump to a far more diverse and content rich experience with updated graphics, why wouldn't you do it?

I said before I'm not following the competitive community anymore because I got bored from it, can you really blame me if the most watched streams happen to have HB in the front? As well as the Fox/Falco mains that plague the events?

How is the directional air dodge making the game more offensively oriented? how is that making for faster KOs?
I play every new Smash game for hundreds of hours and make my own decisions based on that.

You don't have to watch Hungrybox or fox/falco. Give Axe a follow, or aMSa, or one of the falcon or marth mains. Maybe even try watching doubles instead because there are some great teams.

DigitalOp · Jul 9, 2018

Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

People do try the new games. Most notoriously when everyone got burned by Brawl.

If you enjoyed playing a game, then the sequel comes out and its played at half speed with half the movement options, no combos and questionable mechanics like random tripping or Rage in 4, then you would probably keep playing the previous game, right? Its no different to when CS:Source released as a buggy mess, so a lot of people didn't move their tournaments from 1.6 to CS:S until big changes happened.

New characters are great but gameplay is always going to be the single most important factor in a multiplayer game.

Lwill · Jul 9, 2018

Xtortion said:
Breh. Sakurai cares very much about competitive players. Ultimate's effort to enhance the competitive eSports experience shits all over the previous games.

-Bluntly communicated mechanics changes (less landing lag across the board, do anything out of a dash, deteriorating dodges, directional air dodge) that address competitive community feedback to make the game faster, more fluid, and maybe even a bit closer to Melee: Check

-The communication of niche information (0.X%, blast zone maps) that casual players will not give a single shit about: Check

-Quality of life features (stage hazard toggle, Battlefield forms, select stage before characters) to optimize competitive rulesets: Check

-Presentation features (Versus screen, score display when a stock is lost in 1v1) to enhance the spectator experience: Check

Ultimate supports competitive play of the box a thousand times better than any Smash before it. Sakurai not wanting to implement the technical skill ceiling of Melee does not mean that the game is ignoring the competitive scene. I think people are misreading his comments hard.

Good points. It was interesting how that type of information was focused on. The game is definitely getting pushed as a ESport.

Rutger · Jul 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

New characters are cool, and there's some cool ideas with some post-Melee characters.
Sadly, after trying those games, I just don't find them to be as fun.

For playing both, there are people that do! But for higher level players it becomes tricky, there's a lot one needs to learn and keep practicing to stay at that level, it often is easier to stick with the game you enjoy the most.

BasilZero · Jul 9, 2018

Daouzin said:
Cool Story Bro,

I also never play games released before July 4th 2018 because they are old and I only play new games.

Thats a nice life story bro. You should play games released before July 4th 2018, you are missing out on a lot of good games like the superior Super Smash Bros Brawl

(lol)

Also I never said I dont play old games :p.

Chaosblade · Jul 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

People play Melee because they love the way the game plays and feels. I'd imagine for many it would amount to "liking" Smash as a series but "loving" Melee as an individual game.

And a lot of people do play both in a semi-casual manner. Hbox has streamed a lot of Smash 4 For Glory matches and entered tournaments, but he's never going to try to compete at the top level. Trying to do both is just too much, M2K is about the closest anyone has come (or Wizzrobe in Melee+64) but he never really hit the top of Smash 4 and his Melee play dipped while he tried to improve in Smash 4. End result, he mostly just focused on Melee.

Makes me wonder what we will see happen with Leffen and Melee/DBFZ. He's already started dropping out of some Melee tournaments for DBFZ practice.

collige · Jul 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

Having all the characters in the world doesn't matter to me if the basic acts of moving and attacking don't feel satisfying.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate having more characters, but Project M had a major update come out at the same time as Smash 4 and has similar character variety. It's what got me back into playing Smash after a pretty major hiatus.

Ionic · Jul 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Do Melee players even feel like they're missing out on all the new content? There's easily been 30+ new characters and playstyles added since Melee and I'm interested to know if that doesn't make people want to pick up the new game? I mean I can't see how anyone with a "competitive" mindset isn't intruiged by new matchups and movesets.

Like why not play both? I would assume that would be the obvious answer but alot of posts in this thread just give off the air that Ultimate is lesser because you cant perform all those crazy inputs like in Melee. Ultimate is going to have fanbase for a long time.

Since the writing is on the wall that this may be the last game before a serious reboot in a sense

I think Melee players are still interested in new content, as evidenced by how many I saw playing Project M on the side during its heyday. But if none of the new content in the recent Smash games feels as fun to them as the more selective content in Melee, why should they switch games?

Jacobson · Jul 9, 2018

i'm not even interested in smash because it's too competitive for me. or any fighting games in general, really.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 9, 2018

Ionic said:
I think Melee players are still interested in new content, as evidenced by how many I saw playing Project M on the side during its heyday. But if none of the new content in the recent Smash games feels as fun to them as the more selective content in Melee, why should they switch games?

PM just had one of their biggest tournaments ever yesterday @ EBB so its still going strong. PM is a weird one to me, since it plays so much like Melee youd think it would be better because of having more characters, but there's a lot of mostly subtle things that still feel off because its a mod.

Related to Sakurai interviews he did say Melee is "the sharpest game in the series... it just felt really good to play."
And a Brawl mod was never going to feel quite the same

Cipherr · Jul 9, 2018

SmokingBun said:
Honestly, this is exactly why I love him and his series
Competitive gamers get so anal and restrictive towards how they play the game and force it on others
Even Pokemon has SMOGON and it's snobby community of folks who take stuff way too serioisly

I love that one bright and colorful game series prioritizes fun over shit like frame cancels and the like

This is Nintendo as a WHOLE for me. As people bug out over balance, and whether the engine sounds exactly right in Gran Turismo on their wheel setup, I sit back with a controller throwing shells and lightning bolts and finishing all of 7th place in Mario Kart

Sometimes I just want to turn the dials down and have some fun. Im glad Smash will continue to always be one of those franchises.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 9, 2018

Cipherr said:
This is Nintendo as a WHOLE for me. As people bug out over balance, and whether the engine sounds exactly right in Gran Turismo on their wheel setup, I sit back with a controller throwing shells and lightning bolts and finishing all of 7th place in Mario Kart

Sometimes I just want to turn the dials down and have some fun. Im glad Smash will continue to always be one of those franchises.

That side of Smash has never gone anywhere. It seems more often that casual players like to tell everyone else they're not playing it right, as evidenced in that thread yesterday about smash as a party game. One guy was even getting trolled because he liked playing casually with items off.

Deleted member 2171 · Jul 9, 2018

It's true, though. You always hear "make a game super technical, the casuals will play it either way" and it's like.. no.. people can actually tell when a game is very technical and hardcore.

And it's obvious he's not ignoring competitive, with all the features they're getting, like omega/BF forms, the new ability to turn off hazards, and changes for 1v1 to speed things up and make it more fun to spectate (like the slow motion big hits).

Rutger · Jul 9, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
That side of Smash has never gone anywhere. It seems more often that casual players like to tell everyone else they're not playing it right, as evidenced in that thread yesterday about smash as a party game. One guy was even getting trolled because he liked playing casually with items off.

The funny thing is, when it comes to playing with items and crazy stages, I still have more fun with Melee, haha.
After that those things became too powerful.

But yeah, the option for silly stuff like that will always be there, and people that like competitive Smash aren't asking for it to be taken away.

FyreWulff said:
It's true, though. You always hear "make a game super technical, the casuals will play it either way" and it's like.. no.. people can actually tell when a game is very technical and hardcore.

And it's obvious he's not ignoring competitive, with all the features they're getting, like omega/BF forms, the new ability to turn off hazards, and changes for 1v1 to speed things up and make it more fun to spectate (like the slow motion big hits).

Smash 4 has plenty of technical things.
Wanting things like dashes keeping dash momentum again really isn't super technical though.

DesiacX · Jul 9, 2018

FyreWulff said:
It's true, though. You always hear "make a game super technical, the casuals will play it either way" and it's like.. no.. people can actually tell when a game is very technical and hardcore.

And it's obvious he's not ignoring competitive, with all the features they're getting, like omega/BF forms, the new ability to turn off hazards, and changes for 1v1 to speed things up and make it more fun to spectate (like the slow motion big hits).

I disagree. Now that games are all online and information is available, the knowledge required to play a game in a super technical fashion is easy to find. But without a desire for that knowledge, something that i don't think is unfair to say applies to most of Smash Bros party player base, something like Brawl is just floatier melee with more characters and a bigger adventure mode.

That said, i don't think its unfair to say that Smash Bros could be designed with the gameplay of something like Rivals of Aether/Icons Combat Arena, and so long as the game had the rest of the core smash elements (Items, crazy stages, the cast, and all the modes), that most of the party players wouldn't be able to tell the difference. At the same time, if they did the same thing except with the gameplay as Brawl, with double the tripping, i still think it'd sell to that same crowd.

Zoid · Jul 9, 2018

Let the past die.

Here's to hoping Melee players can finally get good at another game and move on. Let that dinosaur rest.

Xion_Stellar · Jul 9, 2018

I feel like Sakurai repeats himself alot in these interviews over the years but that might have more to do with what he's being asked.

If he isn't describing some aspect of the new SSB game he's either:
- Micing words that basically read like *$#@ Meele/Meele Players/Competetive Scene
- X Character isn't in the game because he's not popular (Waluigi),it's not technology feasible (Ice Climbers) or some other reason (Ridley was "too big")
- Commenting/Complaining that game development is hard and his hand hurts
- Seemingly implying or outright saying that he doesn't want to work on the SSB series anymore.

I don't know why but sometimes he comes of as jaded for some reason maybe he does need to step away from SSB.

DesiacX · Jul 9, 2018

Zoid said:
Let the past die.

Here's to hoping Melee players can finally get good at another game and move on. Let that dinosaur rest.

Ive asked several people this whenever this type of statement comes up, but no one has yet.

Can you do me a favor and bump this thread with that logic? I'd like to see what happens with it in a context other than Melee.

Chindogg · Jul 9, 2018

Xion_Stellar said:
I feel like Sakurai repeats himself alot in these interviews over the years but that might have more to do with what he's being asked.

If he isn't describing some aspect of the new SSB game he's either:
- Micing words that basically read like *$#@ Meele/Meele Players/Competetive Scene
- X Character isn't in the game because he's not popular (Waluigi),it's not technology feasible (Ice Climbers) or some other reason (Ridley was "too big")
- Commenting/Complaining that game development is hard and his hand hurts
- Seemingly implying or outright saying that he doesn't want to work on the SSB series anymore.

I don't know why but sometimes he comes of as jaded for some reason maybe he does need to step away from SSB.

To be fair, have you actually read Smash Twitter? It's a cesspool of toxicity and entitlement outside of 2 or 3 people.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 10, 2018

Zoid said:
Let the past die.

Here's to hoping Melee players can finally get good at another game and move on. Let that dinosaur rest.

I think you took Kylo Ren a bit too seriously

Chindogg said:
To be fair, have you actually read Smash Twitter? It's a cesspool of toxicity and entitlement outside of 2 or 3 people.

what is smash twitter?

Daouzin · Jul 10, 2018

DesiacX said:
Ive asked several people this whenever this type of statement comes up, but no one has yet.

Can you do me a favor and bump this thread with that logic? I'd like to see what happens with it in a context other than Melee.

Clicked on it.

BAHAHAHAHA

Extreme Tactician · Jul 10, 2018

Phendrana said:
Balancing should be a core part of the game in either case. I also don't think it would take considerably more dev time than what they're doing now.

Why don't you think? Not all of the devs on Smash are balancing the game. Most probably have no experience on that.

Blackbanditsho said:
Completely agree with this post. I follow the Street Fighter scene, and I feel like when you start shifting the mechanics of the game for the casual audience, you're cheating those who are interested in the joy of discovery, and you're compromising the hardcore who play competitively. Casual fans really really complained about the lack of arcade and story mode at launch. When Capcom added in later, it made not one bit of difference to that base or the press. Chasing that fickle market by way of changing the game is NOT the way to win.

Chasing the competitive market isn't a good idea either. SF V was rushed to the market for EVO, and it was very barebones. That's why it ha ssuch a bad reputation.

Xaszatm · Jul 10, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
The name of this very thread should be enough of a clue. Having directional air dodging isn't 1% of what made melee good, and from what we know already this new airdodge cannot be used to waveland or wavedash which was the main thing people wanted from that addition (even ZeRo wants wavedashing). The smash 4 players will likely move to it, but Armada, M2K etc all call it Smash 4.5 because of how similar it plays to Smash 4 and not Melee.

You don't need to just watch grand finals to enjoy watching the game, not that I believe that you follow it at all.
Do you follow any of the other top or likable players? watch any of the rest of Top64? Doubles? no, because like everyone else its easier to just say "but hbox won" and act like that invalidates the rest of an event.

Wait, when did M2K call it Smash 4.5? Or Armanda for that matter? I thought it was Hungrybox that made that claim. I thought the others said it played more like 4 than Melee, not that it was 4.5.

I mean, to be fair, while the top 32 matches are fun because of the variety of playstyles, Hungrybox's reign was almost as bad as Zer0's in how boring it was for him to keep winning. Even if they all played well.

lvl 99 Pixel said:
PM just had one of their biggest tournaments ever yesterday @ EBB so its still going strong. PM is a weird one to me, since it plays so much like Melee youd think it would be better because of having more characters, but there's a lot of mostly subtle things that still feel off because its a mod.

Related to Sakurai interviews he did say Melee is "the sharpest game in the series... it just felt really good to play."
And a Brawl mod was never going to feel quite the same

I mean, let's be fair, the other big reason is that tournament creators slowly stopped sponsoring it to avoid any legal kerfuffles when Nintendo starting to actually sponsoring events. And the fact that PM's original guys ditched the project when they moved on to their own game.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jul 10, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Wait, when did M2K call it Smash 4.5? Or Armanda for that matter? I thought it was Hungrybox that made that claim. I thought the others said it played more like 4 than Melee, not that it was 4.5.

I mean, to be fair, while the top 32 matches are fun because of the variety of playstyles, Hungrybox's reign was almost as bad as Zer0's in how boring it was for him to keep winning. Even if they all played well.

I mean, let's be fair, the other big reason is that tournament creators slowly stopped sponsoring it to avoid any legal kerfuffles when Nintendo starting to actually sponsoring events. And the fact that PM's original guys ditched the project when they moved on to their own game.

well yeah, I also don't enjoy watching puff fox in most finals and tend to close the stream if its not interesting, but that doesn't mean I want to miss out on all the other upsets and close sets. It seems people who don't watch smash streams at all care more about who wins the finals than I do.

Regarding M2K saying its more like 4.5, hes said it on multiple occasions but just skimming through a video he will tell you this kind of thing "its like smash 4 with better approaching" and such, and said something similar today on stream. I cant find the clip of armada but he does say its more like a better version of 4.
It seemed like Smash4 pros were more likely to say that its completely new while also saying that its closer to smash 4.

I know theres been questions about seeding, and it does make sense to seed Smash 4 players higher.
Like many, hes excited to play the game, but there's no confusion that its much closer to smash 4 than any other game.

Sakurai: players “gave up on Melee because it’s too technical", won't focus too much on competitive

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