Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?

Kinoli · Jul 11, 2018

Even though I love Super Metroid and Castlevania SOTN, I must say that Hollow Knight has some of the best bosses I ever played in a Metroidvania and maybe in videogames in general.

Most of the enemies are very well designed, but some of the bosses are design masterpieces. Gameplay wise, the tightest of the three.

The answer is I that I think it will be hard to dethrone SM and CSOTN because they are classics (not without a reason, of course).

BDubsLegend · Jul 11, 2018

PaulloDEC said:
1) What does it being kick-started have to do with anything?
2) What does it being indie have to do with anything?
3) What does it not being available on most platforms have to do with anything?
4) What does other games having long legacies have to do with anything?

This thread is about comparing game against game and asking "Does this one do it better than this one?" If I were comparing a burger from a new chain against a Big Mac, the decades worth of legacy that McDonalds offer isn't going to matter to me. It's about which one tastes better.

The first three points have to do with exposure. This thread is about public perception, not just the people who got to play it already. Gaming community as a whole. I don't think there has been enough exposure doe that. I don't think this game is well known outside of forum culture.

The last point touches on being proven through the test of time. Innovating Being the first to do something, landmark. Is Hollow Knight a landmark title or just a very well made game. It's too soon to even be able to tell.

BDubsLegend · Jul 11, 2018

John Rabbit said:
You're genuinely unable to evaluate art if you think Hollow Knight isn't at some level a continuation of the art style popularized by Behemoth, straight up. There's more to art than which colors are used and the level of detail of a thing. It's completely influenced by the bold, cartoonish art style that became huge during the Newgrounds era. It's not a criticism, it's not an insult; it's a simple observation.

Lol it's like if you associate it with the Behemoth's art style it's not serious enough or something. And of course Hollow Knight is serious business. It's dark like Dark Souls another game it borrows from. I hope this game doesn't turn into another undertale situation with fanatical zealot fans.

KeRaSh · Jul 11, 2018

Never really got into Super Metroid. Played it a couple times for about half an hour and stopped every time.
Hollow Knight immediately clicked with me and even after beating it last week I can't get it out of my head. I'm still watching speedruns and let's plays...
Day one for the next DLC for sure.

PaulloDEC · Jul 11, 2018

BDubsLegend said:
The first three points have to do with exposure. This thread is about public perception, not just the people who got to play it already. Gaming community as a whole. I don't think there has been enough exposure doe that. I don't think this game is well known outside of forum culture.

The last point touches on being proven through the test of time. Innovating Being the first to do something, landmark. Is Hollow Knight a landmark title or just a very well made game. It's too soon to even be able to tell.

I mean, the whole "public eye" part of the thread is difficult on its own. Even if you narrow it to just "the gaming community", that's still an incredibly broad group of people. I think HK is pretty well known on places like Era, but we're kinda the nerdiest of the nerdy when it comes to gamers at large.

For me, the legacy of a game (and it's importance in the bigger scheme of things) is something quite separate from how it shapes up against modern titles. Games like Super Metroid have already earned their place in the history books; being surpassed by "better" modern games doesn't take them down a peg. The fact that people have gone on to make better films than "A Trip to the Moon" doesn't diminish the work of Georges Méliès; being surpassed is part of the process when a new medium is forming. The pioneers will always be recognised.

Jader7777 · Jul 11, 2018

Castlevania and Metroid don't have input delay.

Jobbs · Jul 11, 2018

I've been saying for the past year that I think HK is the best game of its genre. You can never take away the special feeling you have for classic games of your youth -- sure, but just as a game, HK is better than those.

Yebele · Jul 11, 2018

wtf is a hollow knight

ParanoidRED · Jul 11, 2018

No, and to be quite honest i didn't think that much of Hollow Knight

Ori was a much, much better game

BDubsLegend · Jul 11, 2018

PaulloDEC said:
I mean, the whole "public eye" part of the thread is difficult on its own. Even if you narrow it to just "the gaming community", that's still an incredibly broad group of people. I think HK is pretty well known on places like Era, but we're kinda the nerdiest of the nerdy when it comes to gamers at large.

For me, the legacy of a game (and it's importance in the bigger scheme of things) is something quite separate from how it shapes up against modern titles. Games like Super Metroid have already earned their place in the history books; being surpassed by "better" modern games doesn't take them down a peg. The fact that people have gone on to make better films than "A Trip to the Moon" doesn't diminish the work of Georges Méliès; being surpassed is part of the process when a new medium is forming. The pioneers will always be recognised.

So you answered the question. It hasn't dethroned anything. I was just wondering how a game with such little presence in the broad spectrum of of the entire Video games industry would even be considered for this yet. I guess the point is why can't Hollow Knight just be a great game. Why does it have to be better than these other games. Is it some form of Validation? Can you not enjoy it as much if everyone won't acknowledge it's praises? Nobody and nothing's legacy will be decided shortly after people discovering it/them. Especially video games.

overcast · Jul 11, 2018

People can think that Hollow Knight is better but I don't see it surpassing SOTN or Super Metroid in the "grand scheme". Basically, I just don't see it taking their spot in the zeitgeist.

PaulloDEC · Jul 11, 2018

BDubsLegend said:
So you answered the question. It hasn't dethroned anything. I was just wondering how a game with such little presence in the broad spectrum of of the entire Video games industry would even be considered for this yet. I guess the point is why can't Hollow Knight just be a great game. Why does it have to be better than these other games. Is it some form of Validation? Can you not enjoy it as much if everyone won't acknowledge it's praises? Nobody and nothing's legacy will be decided shortly after people discovering it/them. Especially video games.

I haven't really answered the question anywhere in this thread. I've never completed Super Metroid or SotN, and I wouldn't feel qualified to answer the question before doing so.

As to your other question, it works exactly the same way in reverse. Why do fans of SM or SotN get so rattled when people suggest that some other game might be better? Isn't it enough to be a great game?

The truth is, we all want to see our opinions validated to some degree.

Ascheroth · Jul 11, 2018

Morrigan said:
It's not a Souls-like. Literally the only "Souls-like" aspect is having to retrieve your lost geo, which is similar to retrieving your lost souls (and geo is really not as important as your souls).

I would disagree with that. To me, Hollow Knight is the game that 'feels' closest to a Souls game, in terms of lore/story-telling, challenge, atmosphere and exploration (which are the things I consider important for a Souls-like)
People consider different things to be Souls-like though. Like, if the multiplayer-part of Souls is really important to you, Hollow Knight will not satisfy you if you're looking for that), etc.

giapel · Jul 11, 2018

I'm really enjoying my time with Hollow Knight, and I've put 30hrs into it now, but I do feel it's slightly bloated. There's some really cool gameplay ideas, but also stuff that aren't as good. By contrast, Super Metroid is trimmed and polished to perfection. I can't think of anything that feels out of place or could be improved. There's a certain elegance in its design where HK feels a bit... messy.
Both exceptional games though, but only one is a timeless classic.

AztecComplex · Jul 11, 2018

Public eye? Hold you right horses, OP. Wait at least a couple of years before firing your hyperboles out. Still too fucking soon to declare the general public has HK in higher regard than 20+ year old classics.

EarthPainting · Jul 11, 2018

Ascheroth said:
I would disagree with that. To me, Hollow Knight is the game that 'feels' closest to a Souls game, in terms of lore/story-telling, challenge, atmosphere and exploration (which are the things I consider important for a Souls-like)
People consider different things to be Souls-like though. Like, if the multiplayer-part of Souls is really important to you, Hollow Knight will not satisfy you if you're looking for that), etc.

I'm with you on this. The way the world is constructed and populated is reminiscent of Souls games to me. Same goes for how its mood and storytelling is integrated. Those elements evoked Souls more to me than the death mechanic.

Yebele said:
wtf is a hollow knight

ryechu · Jul 11, 2018

Jader7777 said:
Castlevania and Metroid don't have input delay.

The switch version isn't the only version.

BDubsLegend · Jul 11, 2018

PaulloDEC said:
I haven't really answered the question anywhere in this thread. I've never completed Super Metroid or SotN, and I wouldn't feel qualified to answer the question before doing so.

As to your other question, it works exactly the same way in reverse. Why do fans of SM or SotN get so rattled when people suggest that some other game might be better? Isn't it enough to be a great game?

The truth is, we all want to see our opinions validated to some degree.

No you can't just reverse it. No one runs into new Metriodvania threads shouting this isn't better than SoTN. This thread is about validation. The quality of the game doesn't change whether people think it's better than Super Metroid or not. A big problem with forum culture is people wanting their opinions validated by others whether it be a game or a system. You should just enjoy something if you like it because public opinion doesn't add or take away from any game.

Gray · Jul 11, 2018

It's a great game, no question but I don't know that I'd consider it a classic like Metroid or Castlevania. I don't even think it's the best in the genre.

jepense · Jul 11, 2018

Hollow Knight has a very different structure compared to Super Metroid. SM is short and dense and it has a very rapid gameplay loop of stacking upgrades. Combat is a minor element in SM. HK is long and expansive. Mobility upgrades are a minor thing in HK and combat is very important. HK is very good, but it is also very difficult and somewhat grindy because of that. Gameplay-wise, I don't think SM is a good comparison for HK at all. Personally, I like SM better and in its time, SM was much more influential than HK is now.

DragoonC · Jul 11, 2018

The level design in Super Metroid is still the best in its field, as well as the atmosphere. SotN still has the best movement.

Granted I absolutely loved Hollow Knight.

honest_ry · Jul 11, 2018

The general public have not even heard of Hollow Knight.

Its also not on par with SM or SOTN. Or even more modern day metroidvanias.

(Im not saying its a bad game btw)

Deleted member 2809 · Jul 11, 2018

It's good but it's not super metroid
Dunno why people shit on its artstyle though, it's gorgeous.

TheHolyTurnip · Jul 11, 2018

I can't say it's better than but it's completely on par with SM and SotN. Gorgeous art, cryptic story, tons of atmosphere, great characters, loads of secrets, :insert continued sploosh here:

It's up there with some of my favorites of all time, can't wait to see what Team Cherry does next.

sir_crocodile · Jul 11, 2018

In terms of perception, no, that will never happen.

In terms of actually being better, I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but every time people say something has eclipsed them (most recently axiom verge), when I get round to playing it they don't come close to measuring up.

Last game that actually was as good was ecclesia.

WadiumArcadium · Jul 11, 2018

BenJafaar said:
Is Super Metroid worth picking up on the 3DS VC?

I played it for the first time on 3DS last year. It absolutely is.

Stairouais · Jul 11, 2018

As if general public has even heard of SOTN...

Fifstar · Jul 11, 2018

jepense said:
Hollow Knight has a very different structure compared to Super Metroid. SM is short and dense and it has a very rapid gameplay loop of stacking upgrades. Combat is a minor element in SM. HK is long and expansive. Mobility upgrades are a minor thing in HK and combat is very important. HK is very good, but it is also very difficult and somewhat grindy because of that. Gameplay-wise, I don't think SM is a good comparison for HK at all. Personally, I like SM better and in its time, SM was much more influential than HK is now.

Well said.

D4rth Man7iz · Jul 11, 2018

Maybe in many many years.

PaulloDEC · Jul 11, 2018

BDubsLegend said:
No you can't just reverse it. No one runs into new Metriodvania threads shouting this isn't better than SoTN. This thread is about validation. The quality of the game doesn't change whether people think it's better than Super Metroid or not. A big problem with forum culture is people wanting their opinions validated by others whether it be a game or a system. You should just enjoy something if you like it because public opinion doesn't add or take away from any game.

Wanting to rank things is human nature, or geek nature at the very least. It isn't going away, and I don't think it necessarily should. Those discussions can be fun.

What I find makes them less fun is the people who are so invested in their own opinions that they aren't willing to have a conversation.

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 11, 2018

Stairouais said:
As if general public has even heard of SOTN...

The game is 20 years old and was a pretty big deal even at the time

Carpathia · Jul 11, 2018

As a game I think is as good or even better than Super Metroid and SotN but personally I prefer Super Metroid for the atmosphere.

D.Lo · Jul 11, 2018

Labor said:
The game is 20 years old and was a pretty big deal even at the time

It literally was not a pretty big deal at the time, it sold very poorly. The majority of its sales were years later on the 'greatest hits' print in the US, it didn't even get a reprint in PAL.

Mifec · Jul 11, 2018

It's a much better game then both of them and infinitely better than Ori but I doubt it's ever gonna get the l level of acclaim as either of those.

Garlic · Jul 11, 2018

jepense said:
Hollow Knight has a very different structure compared to Super Metroid. SM is short and dense and it has a very rapid gameplay loop of stacking upgrades. Combat is a minor element in SM. HK is long and expansive. Mobility upgrades are a minor thing in HK and combat is very important. HK is very good, but it is also very difficult and somewhat grindy because of that. Gameplay-wise, I don't think SM is a good comparison for HK at all. Personally, I like SM better and in its time, SM was much more influential than HK is now.

This right here. Super Metroid, SOTN, and Hollow Knight all have their areas of excellence and which you rate highest will depend on what you personally value most. For me Super Metroid is still top, though Hollow Knight is a worthy challenger

Deleted member 2834 · Jul 11, 2018

KamenRiderEra said:
They are vanguard games, and for this they'll always be regarded as the supreme in the genre. Anyway, do you play on pc? There's so many good Metroidvanias out there... Steam has even the tag "Metroidvania". I like all of them, if you allow me, I recommend two obscures: Pharaoh Rebirth, and Momodora IV

I finished Momodora in PS4 and though it was wank tbh

DekuBleep · Jul 11, 2018

Hollow Knight is my favorite Metroidvania.

It is not fair to compare it to old games that didn't benefit from improvements in gameplay ideas.

KainXVIII · Jul 11, 2018

Mifec said:
It's a much better game then both of them and infinitely better than Ori but I doubt it's ever gonna get the l level of acclaim as either of those.

Basically this.

Stairouais · Jul 11, 2018

Labor said:
The game is 20 years old and was a pretty big deal even at the time

Critically, sure. It was, and still is a fantastic game. But outside of the 32 bits golden era of Japan, has Castlevania ever been a big seller?

Feral · Jul 11, 2018

the people that put Ori over it and other Metroidvanias are confusing me, honestly. I mean, Ori is a fine and charming game, but it seems like many here prefer presentation over depth and gameplay
the "well, Ori focuses more on the story" argument is a joke, there's nothing noteworthy about Ori's story or how it is told, it's typical bog standard videogame drivel
the big distinction I see between the two is that Ori is more of a methodical puzzle platformer, while HK has none or barely any of that and puts much more emphasis on fast-paced combat
both games suffer a little from their game worlds being too dark, visually, and looking too same-y in many places, even if it fits tonally. Metroidvanias should really stop with those endless caves, not everything has to be Metroid

FrostyLemon · Jul 11, 2018

Surface of Me said:
Looks like something I'd play/watch on New grounds in the year 2006.

I'm loving the game but you're not wrong. This really does remind me of Newgrounds art.

EvilBoris · Jul 11, 2018

I didn't even know Hollow Knight was a metroidvania until I read this thread title

Jonneh · Jul 11, 2018

I've just started playing Hollow Knight and boy is it phenomenal. Better than Super Metroid? I really don't know just yet but it's bloody good. It terms of combat it's certainly better than both of them - you feel the impact of every single hit and it relishes in its mechanical limitations. There's no question that this is a really clever game and up there with the best of its genre.

In terms of world design? I don't think it'll dethrone Super Metroid but we shall see. I may actually prefer it to SOTN already though.

Surface of Me said:
Looks like something I'd play/watch on New grounds in the year 2006.

It really does not.

Deleted member 35204 · Jul 11, 2018

lolno

MeltedDreams · Jul 11, 2018

Dethroned? Maybe not, but the game is up there with the best metroidvania games. Often i see many people including it on their top 3 as well, so that speaks a lot. The three people dev team of Team Cherry have did tremendous work.

Also the negatives i have heard about Hollow Knight's music, high difficulty and the map are all positives in my book. How the map works is kinda refreshing and different than most games.

Oracle · Jul 11, 2018

What does medroidvania mean?

How is it pronounced?

Tito · Jul 11, 2018

How much did Super Metroid and SOTN sell, anyway?

I'm pretty sure not a lot, and Hollow Knight already surpassed them, or is just about to do it very soon.

Narroo · Jul 11, 2018

Shugga said:
It's good but it's not super metroid
Dunno why people shit on its artstyle though, it's gorgeous.

The characters and animation look like they were done in flash, while the environments mostly are dark, damp, dingy and busy. Overall, it is a good looking 2D game with both a lot of detail and some good design, but it isn't perfect. Rather, it's a study in how atmosphere and consistency can make a game more than the sum of it's parts.

Wamb0wneD · Jul 11, 2018

ParanoidRED said:
No, and to be quite honest i didn't think that much of Hollow Knight

Ori was a much, much better game

Hollow Knight has better combat, better enemy variety, better bosses and better exploring.
artstyle and music are things people can disagree on and the platforming of Ori is better, but those above stated facts make it almost impossible to be a better game.

Oracle said:
What does medroidvania mean?

How is it pronounced?

Like when you say Metroid and the second part of Castlevania. Or are you trolling?

Pariah · Jul 11, 2018

How many people worked in Super Metroid? How costly was Symphony of the Night to make? As much as I value their results, playing the "indie" card as a medal of merit for Hollow Knight doesn't seem sound, when compared to titles created in much more modest conditions than some are imagining.

On top of that, they not only were done in such environment: they invented a subgenre, gave form to a blueprint for others to follow. Like Team Cherry did so well.

Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?

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