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Throne room scene in The Last Jedi and what Kylo says (spoilers)
- Thread starter Deleted member 17402
- Start date
Some of you really can't get over the OT can you? So basically yet another rebels vs Empire with a dark, masked force user. It's literally the same story as Anakin again. We need a completely different story for the next trilogy
To me this was the most disappointing part of the movie. Kylo and Rey work together to kill Snoke and his guards, and it seems for a moment like we may finally break out of the formulaic light/dark, rebel/empire pattern that all Star Wars movies apparently need to follow. Then that whole idea gets shut down immediately and we go back to the old comfortable tropes, complete with replica Hoth battle and a red versus blue lightsaber duel.
In hindsight I guess TLJ's throne room scene was just an amped up recreation of the throne room scene from Return of the Jedi, but at the time I was really hoping things would go in a new direction. Having a scene like this in the middle of the new trilogy makes no sense; killing the emperor should be a wildly transformative event in the film's universe. Having nothing really change makes the Star Wars universe feel like a sitcom where everything needs to stay functionally the same episode to episode.
In hindsight I guess TLJ's throne room scene was just an amped up recreation of the throne room scene from Return of the Jedi, but at the time I was really hoping things would go in a new direction. Having a scene like this in the middle of the new trilogy makes no sense; killing the emperor should be a wildly transformative event in the film's universe. Having nothing really change makes the Star Wars universe feel like a sitcom where everything needs to stay functionally the same episode to episode.
The stuff with kylo is the best in yhe series so far, Adam Driver really elevates what so far has been sort of a mixed character in terms of writing, which just so happens to conveniently coincide with him being mixed emotionally. He's got a lot of depthand nuance to him, and he is easily one of the best characters in Star Wars in my opinion.
The throne room scene was like 85% good, but they threw some stuff in there that just didn't make sense for what he was proposing.
The idea of tearing everything down- Jedi, Sith, Resistance and First Order- was awesome, rebuilding it in a new way, but it would have been nice to see him have a genuine change. Instead all he really means is let's tear down the stuff that you (Rey) are not in control of, and then we'll use what I'm in control of to domineer the Galaxy, which was no different than what they were already doing.
It was weird because that was a direction to really take the ideologies that would have been extremely fresh and different, and could have caused a lot of new conflict or compromise resulting from it, but instead it's hit the reset on status quo almost immediately. One of the more disappointing aspects of the movie for me.
The throne room scene was like 85% good, but they threw some stuff in there that just didn't make sense for what he was proposing.
The idea of tearing everything down- Jedi, Sith, Resistance and First Order- was awesome, rebuilding it in a new way, but it would have been nice to see him have a genuine change. Instead all he really means is let's tear down the stuff that you (Rey) are not in control of, and then we'll use what I'm in control of to domineer the Galaxy, which was no different than what they were already doing.
It was weird because that was a direction to really take the ideologies that would have been extremely fresh and different, and could have caused a lot of new conflict or compromise resulting from it, but instead it's hit the reset on status quo almost immediately. One of the more disappointing aspects of the movie for me.
Never heard of this. Just read. This fallacy seems to support my belief she would have held on longer and made more attempts with Kylo. Right...?
There's still time for his arc to take a turn for the better or worse. I'm of the opinion that the Knights of Ren will be the bad guys in Episode 9 and will kill Rey and/or Kylo. Luke dying wasn't actually him dying in TLJ...that was just another force projection. He'll team up with whoever of the two survives to take down the KOR.
No. It supports that the truly logical thing to do would be to cut your losses instead of rationalizing "I've already put so much time into thing, I should put more into it...."
Kylo is way beyond redemption by that point. I will be surprised if he pulls a Vader in EpIX.
Han tries to turn him. He dies.
Rey is sure he will turn. Turns out Snoke was feeding the conflict. She watches Kylo killing Snoke and thinks it is because he's turning. They even fight together. Then she tells him that there is still time to stop the FO shooting at the Resistance. He does nothing. She then realizes that he killed Snoke for him, not for a greater cause.
She turned her back because she realized he is not going to redeem himself. He's had chances where he could do it, and he dives further into the Dark Side. It is very clear.
Han tries to turn him. He dies.
Rey is sure he will turn. Turns out Snoke was feeding the conflict. She watches Kylo killing Snoke and thinks it is because he's turning. They even fight together. Then she tells him that there is still time to stop the FO shooting at the Resistance. He does nothing. She then realizes that he killed Snoke for him, not for a greater cause.
She turned her back because she realized he is not going to redeem himself. He's had chances where he could do it, and he dives further into the Dark Side. It is very clear.
It's the tension of such a possibility that makes Kylo so engaging. Even if it never happens, there's that kernel of struggle in him that makes watching him compelling.
It would have been nice if Kylo played along with Rey for awhile as a ploy to get to Luke. That's where Rey could have really seen that Luke was right.
But people don't always (or even often) do what's logical. Rey was already being driven largely by emotion; it would have made sense for her to keep pushing that angle
No.
It made more sense for her to be a logical being after seeing Kylo for what he really was.
Not saying she couldn't have acted illogically in that moment, but she didn't. And it's weird that people think that would've been more satisfactory somehow.
It's not that difficult to imagine the scene being slightly reworked to support a more interesting conclusion.
Well, it could, but Rey already learnt to let things go. She left Jakku, she left Luke, she realized searching for his parents led nowhere... why would she push after seeing Kylo killing Han and not stopping the massacre of the Resistance?
I think the point going forward is, there isn't a dark or light side anymore. No Jedi, no sith. The idea of good vs. evil just doesn't truly work, not when you can see both points of view of the very human characters.
Agreed. It simply wasn't that satsifying to watch unravel, especially after seeing the insane lengths she went to in order to get to that point.
It was definitely him seeking validation from someone who he felt he had a genuine connection with, maybe hoping having someone who believed in him would help him find his path, which in that moment he felt he needed to make for himself by "letting the past die." I still wish Rey joined him, but then again that would probably make for a weird sequel.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing against the insane belief that what she did didn't make sense. Because it did. How interesting it was or wasn't isn't really relevant to that point.
I don't recall either. In the nre Vader comics I think the people of LucasFilms explore this subject. He suspects that his child is still alive I think, but the emperor mindfuck him.
To the point of watching the guy not giving two fucks about the Resistance being murdered?
Okay, but I wasn't strictly disputing that either? I think we got tangled within a web of replies lol
I'm inclined to agree.
I thought Kylo was being genuine in his moment of reaching out to Rey. It's really sad in a way; I remember Daisy Ridley describing in an interview how the two connect over their intense loneliness. It was brilliantly acted by both her and Driver.
And I think the potential for his redemption is still there. Luke never deems Ben as too far gone ("No one's ever really gone"), but he does acknowledge to Leia that he can't be the one to save Ben (probably because of the role he played in Ben's fall).
And Rey's final Force Skype scene with Kylo comes across to me as more of a "I can't help you if you don't want my help" rather than a "Screw you, you're hopeless."
You said it'd make sense for her to keep pushing that angle, which I'd already disputed by bringing up the sunk cost fallacy.
Rey actually acting logically is logical lol. You don't keep sinking time into lost causes just because you've already put forth a lot of time and effort into them. Or at least, you shouldn't.
I was merely stating that pointing out that a fallacy exists doesn't really mean a whole lot when it comes to human behavior. When I said it "would have made sense" it wasn't as the exclusion of what actually happened. My point was just that it could have been made to work were that a direction the filmmakers were interested in exploring. Unfortunately, they weren't.
It "makes sense" from a storytelling perspective for a character to make the same mistake people in real life constantly (and in in fiction), was my angle.
As far as I could tell the Kylo at the end of the movie was the same Kylo in the throne room, the conflict is more about Rey wanting to believe in the possibility of him not going full dark side, but in reality he was using that hope to manipulate her and get what he wanted. Leadership and possibly his best rival to trust him and work with (for) him.
That's why I said that's where we're missing each other.
I was never looking at it from a storytelling perspective. Though even there I'd argue he gave her ample evidence that he was too far gone. I think her decision was fine in that light.
Yeah, pretty much. Left the theater pretty disgusted with the consequences on display, but after rewatching it, I learned to enjoy the subversive teases in the journey at bit more.
After he murdered his daddy in front of her? Yeah. In fact, I'd say the daddy thing was more heartless since he directly did it. The Resistance he simply hadn't ordered to stop yet. In fact, I also find it silly she wouldn't do more to convince Kylo specifically because the Resistance was being murdered, and he could potentially stop it.
It would probably have to be the most political SW movie by far and would likely feel jarringly different.
As interesting as it would be for the franchise, it really couldn't work as a good Star Wars movie, especially with how Rey and Kylo are set up. I'm just hopIng that J.J. doesn't end it on an overly generic note and goes along with the idea put forward in TLJ.
To me, it seems to depend on whether or not you as a viewer are able to watch these movies while not paying any mind to the previous trilogy. Yes, Vader worked, because he was largely shrouded in mystery and he was the first character of his type in the franchise. Apart from the First Order being a carbon copy of the Empire, having a descendent of Anakin go the same route without compelling reasons is, to me, rather boring. Adam Driver is great, but I think this trilogy has too much baggage to just do the same thing again.
I'm one of the people who didn't enjoy VII because it was a retread of ANH and showed us nothing new in the world of SW, so ultimately I think that the new trilogy just doesn't have a solid foundation, despite having fun characters.
I get what you're saying on paper, but it relates to my point about baggage. I like Kylo, but I'm not on board with his motivations. His scene with Han was the first time they were on screen together, and fell pretty flat to me. I wanted to be on board with Kylo, but from that scene onwards I could feel the director funneling Kylo towards a certain path.
By the point he murders Han Solo he could still be under Snoke's influence. "I felt the conflict in him", "I know when the time comes, you will turn", etc. etc. She believes this. But then he kills Snoke, so he's not under his influence anymore right? There's no one feeding him to the dark side. And then he proves there's no redeemption for him, he's in total control and proves her wrong. There is no turning