VG247 pulls support and coverage of GOG.com following pro GamerGate tweet [Update: GOG apology]

cakely · Jul 19, 2018

MunkyMan33 said:
So let me start by saying I only have a surface knowledge of gamergate and legit want to learn because the dynamic around it is fascinating. So this is a legit question. Is it fair to assume at this point that everyone who references gamer gate is leaning into the harrassment side and not still just championing for better in games journalism? Is that nuanced position still open? The issue seems so bifurcated at this point that maybe not. But there doesnt seem room for nuance points about it any more. It seems you either have to get angry and use sweeping accusations of sexism and hate or on the flip side you are a hater.

I guess I'm asking how one voices the view I mentioned (harrassment is sick but there is definitely shady crap in games journalism regardless of whatever happened with the people the controversy centered on) but doesn't get branded a lover of hate. Some of the bans here even follow that assumption. You don't rabble in the comments and you are accused of supporting a hate movement.

One more time for the record, harrassment and hate are evil. Those who did so are sick. I barely know what Gamergate is and don't support anything but rational discourse and learning with this question. Please don't yell at me, call me a hater, and ban me. : )

I know this is a old post and that you're long gone, but I read it this morning on mobile and I was shaking my head the whole time.

Your post is the literal template for GG:

Establish that you barely know anything about GG.
Start asking questions. Let us know that all your questions are legitimate.
Arrive at your actual point: "Isn't this really about ethics in games journalism?"
Bring up the unfair treatment of your fellow GG within the thread.

To the moderation: keep up the good work with this thread, I don't envy you.

Deleted member 41271 · Jul 19, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
"Do research" in the context of posting a random screenshot on twitter seems about as useful as "don't make mistakes". How would you go about it, specifically? You have a screenshot of a game the boss asks you to post on the company's twitter. What tests do you run it through to ensure nothing in it is connected to a hate group?

This seems like such a case of "it's easy as long as it's not my job".

Oh dear. I love guys trying to explain this kind of thing to me like it's some foreign, alien concept I couldn't possible be aware of. Except...
It turns out that I already do this kind of thing for my job. Just today, I had to check fonts to ensure that the characters used in the font were not bothersome to the target audience. That's a thing, yeah.
Other things I frequently see are checks for the connotiations of names, phrases, and idioms. Just to give you a cutesy example, one thing to watch out for is stuff like "To each their own". Innocent phrase, right? Yeah, sure, except that the German version is also on the door for the KZ Buchenwald, and thus has a Nazi connotiation. That cutesy little phrase, used completely innocently, can lead to a PR disaster.

Happened to Peek Cloppenburg, just this year.

Oops.

But hey, what tests, you ask? Surely I must be using arcane knowledge, summoning vile demons with kitten's blood to get this kind of knowledge? Or maybe I consult ancient tomes that induce madness in all that open their blood-soaked pages? Nah. It's really just Google. Works like a charm, and really isn't as hard as you're making it out to be.

nillansan · Jul 19, 2018

cakely said:
To the moderation: keep up the good work with this thread, I don't envy you.

Yeah, thanks for responding so quickly dear moderators!

SturokBGD · Jul 19, 2018

Machachan said:
Other things I frequently see are checks for the connotiations of names, phrases, and idioms. Just to give you a cutesy example, one thing to watch out for is stuff like "To each their own". Innocent phrase, right? Yeah, sure, except that the German version is also on the door for the KZ Buchenwald, and thus has a Nazi connotiation. That cutesy little phrase, used completely innocently, can lead to a PR disaster.

Happened to Peek Cloppenburg, just this year.

I've got a strong feeling in my gut that you only know this because someone else made the mistake first.

OrdinaryPrime · Jul 19, 2018

Skronk said:
The fact that you're resorting to insults now just makes me think you're both bad faith participants in this discussion.

Trying to make people seem ridiculous isn't going to magically get rid of the facts on this one. They attacked journalism (which can have dire consequences in this day and age) and have made no effort to apologize for that.

There is no point in debating people who don't even bother to understand any sort of nuance.

I don't understand how GOG can continue to let GG fester on their site when they can see first hand how fucking insane these people are. Just look at the replies in that subreddit.

OrdinaryPrime · Jul 19, 2018

double post

Poltergust · Jul 19, 2018

Before entering this thread, I had no idea Postal 2 was getting (or was even capable of getting) DLC. That game is ancient.

GOG really should've known better.

zashga · Jul 19, 2018

Wow, that's super disappointing. At least they took it down, but...

MyNameIsKonrad said:
So yeah, I'm Konrad from that Reddit thread. Hello everybody!

This is kind of a spot-on interpretation of what happened. "The game is so crude so hey, let's go with this." Out of the two people who regularly work with our social accounts, neither of us was aware that it's far more deliberate and loaded imagery than just your run of the mill, bone-cutting, piss-on-journalism edge.

I gotta say, what gets me the hardest is stuff like "Oh, you guys took a stance but got bullied into apologizing".
I mean no – I'm sitting right here and it's not what happened, there was no stance, only a careless tweet. The outcry did make us aware of the implication. Good. Now we know and we're better for it.

No offense, but I find it kind of hard to believe that you work in games PR and didn't understand this reference. It's pretty direct. Good on you for owning up to it, though.

Wallach · Jul 19, 2018

Goddamn, some of the people replying to the apology on Twitter have the self-awareness of a small dog. What the fuck.

Deleted member 11370 · Jul 19, 2018

SturokBGD said:
Good grief.

I think that's a completely valid piece of criticism. If you claim to oppose the hate coming from an abusive movement, then don't profit from the sales of games that contain that message.

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 19, 2018

Gamergate is going into its 4th year next month. If you work in games, ESPECIALLY pr or marketing, it's irresponsible not to be up on what's happening.

A gif of someone pissing in a tombstone proclaiming that games journalism committed suicide in August 2014 should already have set off alarm bells for any normal person

Daysean · Jul 19, 2018

zashga said:
Wow, that's super disappointing. At least they took it down, but...

No offense, but I find it kind of hard to believe that you work in games PR and didn't understand this reference. It's pretty direct. Good on you for owning up to it, though.

It's only direct if you get it. Personally I can see someone looking at the tombstone and wondering what happened in August 2014, but if they don't take the effort to look into it at that point it can be seen as a shitpost to games journalism in general.
Or at least that's what I did and then google and other efforts gave me Leigh Alexander article and it clicked for me, but thats only because im a curious person.

B-Man · Jul 19, 2018

I didn't know anything about GG before this thread, googled it and reading the wiki page is just painful.
Much love to Quinn and every one else harassed by those assholes, and hopefully [victims of GG] they're all living a happy normal life now.
Is there any organization or movement opposing GG? I would really like to give my support.
Seriously, Fuck GG and everyone who participated in their hate actions.

SturokBGD · Jul 19, 2018

Joey Ravn said:
I think that's a completely valid piece of criticism. If you claim to oppose the hate coming from an abusive movement, then don't profit from the sales of games that contain that message.

Context is important.

IrishNinja · Jul 19, 2018

wow, after that follow up, both VG and GOG are looking alright by me are the moment - calling gg on being the harmful shitheap that it was is important. wish wed've done this back when it was full swing

dock · Jul 19, 2018

B-Man said:
hopefully [victims of GG] are all living a happy normal life now.

Definitely not. You can see how many very young gamers are keen to have the torch of angry abusive behaviour.

Vimes · Jul 19, 2018

This is yet another reminder than anyone working PR or management in games should be briefed on what gamergate was and have a deep understanding of their history and tactics.

Gonzalo · Jul 19, 2018

Dragon Age > The Witcher and this is one of the reasons why.

devSin · Jul 19, 2018

Dizagaox said:
Why would you think otherwise? Does GOG and CD Projekt have a history of pro-GG behaviour?

They forced their NA community manager to post an apology when he took a stand against it, yes.

They know who their audience are, and they act accordingly. This isn't some shocking revelation.

Tranqueris · Jul 19, 2018

ara said:
We just bein' sneaky and asking questions

I love when some gamergater will try to pull this 2014 bullshit without expecting to be caught. Holy shit guys, I found these interesting videos!

B-Man · Jul 19, 2018

dock said:
Definitely not. You can see how many very young gamers are keen to have the torch of angry abusive behaviour.

That's extremely sad and heart breaking. I don't use Twitter or any other forums so i had no idea how bad it is.

On a side note, I've added the same clarification you've added to my post to clear any possible confusion. Thanks for that!

Messofanego · Jul 19, 2018

Roy Mastang said:
Νο, I disagree with this statement, I think overreaction is the root of many problems in every industry.

Lets see what they do now

GOG apologised. This "overreaction" news made for better knowledge on all parties. I don't see how this being news "is the root of many problems in every industry" considering it was a targeted harassment campaign.

Palette Swap · Jul 19, 2018

IrishNinja said:
wow, after that follow up, both VG and GOG are looking alright by me are the moment - calling gg on being the harmful shitheap that it was is important. wish wed've done this back when it was full swing

Right? My expectations from this industry are so low that I was pleasantly surprised to see VG247 not have any of that shit, and GOG actually reuse the hate label, instead of the usual vague wording.

Maybe some of these guys are starting to realize they've let that shit fester for too long.

Zeno · Jul 19, 2018

dock said:
Definitely not. You can see how many very young gamers are keen to have the torch of angry abusive behaviour.

Not to mention fans of Youtubers who defend every shitty thing their favorite Youtuber does.

IrishNinja · Jul 19, 2018

Palette Swap said:
Right? My expectations from this industry are so low that I was pleasantly surprised to see VG247 not have any of that shit, and GOG actually reuse the hate label, instead of the usual vague wording.

Maybe some of these guys are starting to realize they've let that shit fester for too long.

that's my hope too, yeah - and your post really nailed it, the bar truly is so low that just calling them what they are feels commendable, sadly

shame reddit doesn't have the stones

Weltall Zero · Jul 19, 2018

Gestault said:
On a serious note, reverse image searches, and a basic "Google search distinct info in the image" (like dates) are mandatory before social media posts with third-party materials go out at many companies. That's a big part of the "work" for people doing social media engagement work.

nillansan said:
That's not at all what is being said. Also research is key to marketing, so framing it as some sort of outlandish request, seems like a case of "I have no fucking clue what I am talking about".

Machachan said:
Oh dear. I love guys trying to explain this kind of thing to me like it's some foreign, alien concept I couldn't possible be aware of. Except...
It turns out that I already do this kind of thing for my job. Just today, I had to check fonts to ensure that the characters used in the font were not bothersome to the target audience. That's a thing, yeah.
Other things I frequently see are checks for the connotiations of names, phrases, and idioms. Just to give you a cutesy example, one thing to watch out for is stuff like "To each their own". Innocent phrase, right? Yeah, sure, except that the German version is also on the door for the KZ Buchenwald, and thus has a Nazi connotiation. That cutesy little phrase, used completely innocently, can lead to a PR disaster.

Happened to Peek Cloppenburg, just this year.

Oops.

But hey, what tests, you ask? Surely I must be using arcane knowledge, summoning vile demons with kitten's blood to get this kind of knowledge? Or maybe I consult ancient tomes that induce madness in all that open their blood-soaked pages? Nah. It's really just Google. Works like a charm, and really isn't as hard as you're making it out to be.

OK, assume googling and reverse image search don't turn up anything odd. Now what? Don't think I didn't notice that a five paragraph post of childish sarcasm didn't actually answer my question, unless by "research" you really just meant "googling" and therefore your position is "if Google turns up nothing, you're peachy".

SiG · Jul 19, 2018

zashga said:
Wow, that's super disappointing. At least they took it down, but...

No offense, but I find it kind of hard to believe that you work in games PR and didn't understand this reference. It's pretty direct. Good on you for owning up to it, though.

Not everybody checks on twitter 24/7.

Gestault · Jul 19, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
OK, assume googling and reverse image search don't turn up anything odd. Now what? Don't think I didn't notice that a five paragraph post of childish sarcasm didn't actually answer my question, unless by "research" you really just meant "googling" and therefore your position is "if Google turns up nothing, you're peachy".

Looking at the example from the situation behind this thread is a good case to look at: An image shows pissing on a grave with some words on it and a specific date. Looking up those words might be a good starting point to know what the context is. You're acting like this is an impossible standard, and you're being told by several people with varying degrees of specificity why it's not.

If you type the words "games journalism 2014" into Google, you would have easily gotten the info needed to dodge this situation within the first two results. If you searched "august 28 2014 games journalism," the first 100 results would make it very clear what was going on. Mistakes are possible, and if all you're saying is that, then I don't think anyone disagrees with you, but social media managers have best-practices for avoiding stuff like this. This situation was 100% avoidable.

And for clarity, my original response wasn't some deranged over-reaction; it looked at the fast response and apology and recognized that this was likely a mistake (and even if an individual snuck it in deliberately, there would be eyes on future cases).

SiG · Jul 19, 2018

Gestault said:
Looking at the example from the situation behind this thread might be a good example to consider: An image shows pissing on a grave with some words on it and a specific date. Looking up those words might be a good starting point to know what the context is. You're acting like this is an impossible standard, and you're being told by several people with varying degrees of specificity why it's not.

If you type the words "games journalism 2014" into Google, you would have easily gotten the info needed to dodge this situation within the first two results. Mistakes are possible, and if all you're saying is that, then I don't think anyone disagrees with you, but social media managers have best-practices for avoiding stuff like this. This situation was 100% avoidable.

Are you expecting people to google everything they put up?

Apex88 · Jul 19, 2018

Labor said:
Gamergate is going into its 4th year next month. If you work in games, ESPECIALLY pr or marketing, it's irresponsible not to be up on what's happening.

A gif of someone pissing in a tombstone proclaiming that games journalism committed suicide in August 2014 should already have set off alarm bells for any normal person

For a PR person. Sure, they have to be careful about all subject matters.

For the average person, even a hardcore gamer, checking gaming forums, Twitter etc. on a daily basis. I don't think they have the slightest idea what 'Gamergate' is. I myself have been gaming for 30 years and only seen the term on forums like GAF & ERA. Threads with thousands of responses I never clicked on.

I don't believe the image in question would have meant anything to 99.9% of gamers beyond a silly joke about journalistic standards. The whole situation seems to be perpetuated by both sides arguing back and forth. Meanwhile gamers in the middle are completely bemused about the whole situation.

Gestault · Jul 19, 2018

SiG said:
Are you expecting people to google everything they put up?

If you're using outside material? Yeah, pretty much. Especially if it's got specific hooks like the gravestone-pissing here. A string of phrases/dates are obviously about something specific. A social media manager needs to know what they're roping into the company and products they're promoting. That's the job.

Dremorak · Jul 19, 2018

TBH I also had no idea about the specific connotations of that image. I hate how modern internet never gives people second chances, and always assumes the worst.

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 19, 2018

Apex88 said:
For a PR person. Sure, they have to be careful about all subject matters.

For the average person, even a hardcore gamer, checking gaming forums, Twitter etc. on a daily basis. I don't think they have the slightest idea what 'Gamergate' is. I myself have been gaming for 30 years and only seen the term on forums like GAF & ERA. Threads with thousands of responses I never clicked on.

I don't believe the image in question would have meant anything to 99.9% of gamers beyond a silly joke about journalistic standards. The whole situation seems to be perpetuated by both sides arguing back and forth. Meanwhile gamers in the middle are completely bemused about the whole situation.

That's just your personal ignorance. Granted it doesn't help that most of the games media and industry has ignored it for fear of hurting the bottom line, but seeing as how it's been a thing for nearly four years with some pretty high profile coverage including newspaper and television coverage, senate appearances, deaths, etc. you're just apathetic if you don't know about it.

knuckles · Jul 19, 2018

Tbh I got a misogynist vibe from the witcher 3, couldn't really explain it.

Doukou · Jul 19, 2018

SiG said:
Are you expecting people to google everything they put up?

I mean if I run a Social Media for a company and I find this picture that has Games Journalism dying in 2014, I wouldn't exactly put it up without some googling.

Daysean · Jul 19, 2018

On a side note, really can't believe all that shit was 4 years ago.
Feels like it was last year

Armaros · Jul 19, 2018

SiG said:
Are you expecting people to google everything they put up?

Researching what they put on social media is literally the job of people that work social media for companies.

Literally one of their primary jobs.

ghostcrew · Jul 19, 2018

nillansan said:
...and banned. Good fucking riddance.

Looks like our lovely (banned junior) munkyman33 went straight to Reddit to complain about Resetera moderation on a post that included the fantastic...

honestly, I'd love it if some sociology buff infiltrated resetera and wrote a piece on the echo chamber that is that website, starting with the use of mod power to censor and change conversations, moving on to the fact that they use video games as a political agenda to push their shit and the overall hypocrisy when it comes to being open and inclusive yet hateful against anyone differing from their opinions.

He was just curious. Just asking questions.

ghostcrew · Jul 19, 2018

Dremorak said:
TBH I also had no idea about the specific connotations of that image. I hate how modern internet never gives people second chances, and always assumes the worst.

They're a storefront. Using imagery from an abusive/hate group. Do you not think VG247's reaction was appropriate? It worked didn't it? It got taken down pretty fast and educated everyone on the connotations of pissing on the grave of Gaming Journalism that 'commited suicide in August 2014'. It's fairly on the nose.

SmarmySmurf · Jul 19, 2018

MyNameIsKonrad said:
So yeah, I'm Konrad from that Reddit thread. Hello everybody!

This is kind of a spot-on interpretation of what happened. "The game is so crude so hey, let's go with this." Out of the two people who regularly work with our social accounts, neither of us was aware that it's far more deliberate and loaded imagery than just your run of the mill, bone-cutting, piss-on-journalism edge.

I gotta say, what gets me the hardest is stuff like "Oh, you guys took a stance but got bullied into apologizing".
I mean no – I'm sitting right here and it's not what happened, there was no stance, only a careless tweet. The outcry did make us aware of the implication. Good. Now we know and we're better for it.

Good to hear. I'm willing to take this at face value and just move on. Despite what some think, its actually a relief to not have something to be outraged over. Outrage is exhausting.

Derrick01 · Jul 19, 2018

knuckles said:
Tbh I got a misogynist vibe from the witcher 3, couldn't really explain it.

The world it's set in is misogynist, and racist and generally not a happy place. That's the entire point.

mclem · Jul 19, 2018

Apex88 said:
I don't believe the image in question would have meant anything to 99.9% of gamers beyond a silly joke about journalistic standards..

Which is where it's most insiduous. The modern methodology to spread right-wing ideology is to couch it in forms where a surface reading might look benign, but it has the dogwhistles there for those who are predisposed to those viewpoints - which in turn can lead people to innocently propogating it due to only seeing the surface.

I've seen this sort of thing happen before - fortunately not been guilty of that propogation myself, but come close on occasion - so I'm inclined to trust GoG when they're putting their hands up and claiming ignorance. That said, it does mean I'll view future postings with a little more of a critical eye as a result, just in case.

Rmagnus · Jul 19, 2018

SiG said:
Are you expecting people to google everything they put up?

Kinda come with the job I would imagine. Anyways it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission in most cases and it appears this is one of it. Oh I am sorry I didn't know even tho if the job is a PR branch of a gaming related company.

knuckles · Jul 19, 2018

Derrick01 said:
The world it's set in is misogynist, and racist and generally not a happy place. That's the entire point.

You could say the same about cyperpunk 2077.

Mistwalker · Jul 19, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
Agreed. Assuming the worst of everyone every time, even against their own word, is not going to make the world a livable place for anyone. If the intention of the tweet was to support GamerGate, they would have doubled down, not apologized.

Pretty much my feelings on this one.

It was an honest mistake--one made in poor taste and judgment, but a mistake nonetheless--which has been apologized for.

Do they need to do better? Yes, and they've stated as much. Given the charged nature of the mistake, GOG also needed to clearly denounce the hate movement, which they also promptly did, followed by clarifying posts both here and on reddit.

They were rightfully called out, they apologized and clarified, and sometimes that's all that should need to be done. Seems to be the case here in my opinion.

SturokBGD · Jul 19, 2018

knuckles said:
You could say the same about cyperpunk 2077.

You could say the same about Postal 2. :p

cakely · Jul 19, 2018

ghostcrew said:
Looks like our lovely (banned junior) munkyman33 went straight to Reddit to complain about Resetera moderation on a post that included the fantastic...

He was just curious. Just asking questions.

honestly, I'd love it if some sociology buff infiltrated resetera and wrote a piece on the echo chamber that is that website, starting with the use of mod power to censor and change conversations, moving on to the fact that they use video games as a political agenda to push their shit and the overall hypocrisy when it comes to being open and inclusive yet hateful against anyone differing from their opinions.

Murky, since I know you're reading this, I would just like you to know that we here at Resetera completely support your banning, 100%. It was the right thing to do.

Deleted member 41271 · Jul 20, 2018

SturokBGD said:
I've got a strong feeling in my gut that you only know this because someone else made the mistake first.

My dude, I've got a strong suspicion you've got no clue whatsoever about good marketing and/or localization. We actually check for plenty of things that, to my knowledge, nobody got into trouble for yet - looking for such issues is kinda the point. That's kinda the part of doing the job, anticipating problems in target markets and avoiding them, lol.

Captain of Outer Space · Jul 20, 2018

Mistwalker said:
Pretty much my feelings on this one.

It was an honest mistake--one made in poor taste and judgment, but a mistake nonetheless--which has been apologized for.

Do they need to do better? Yes, and they've stated as much. Given the charged nature of the mistake, GOG also needed to clearly denounce the hate movement, which they also promptly did, followed by clarifying posts both here and on reddit.

They were rightfully called out, they apologized and clarified, and sometimes that's all that should need to be done. Seems to be the case here in my opinion.

Yeah, in comparison, Play-Asia went the opposite route to court GG people in pursuit of more sales of DOAX3.

Deleted member 18347 · Jul 20, 2018

MyNameIsKonrad said:
So yeah, I'm Konrad from that Reddit thread. Hello everybody!

This is kind of a spot-on interpretation of what happened. "The game is so crude so hey, let's go with this." Out of the two people who regularly work with our social accounts, neither of us was aware that it's far more deliberate and loaded imagery than just your run of the mill, bone-cutting, piss-on-journalism edge.

I gotta say, what gets me the hardest is stuff like "Oh, you guys took a stance but got bullied into apologizing".
I mean no – I'm sitting right here and it's not what happened, there was no stance, only a careless tweet. The outcry did make us aware of the implication. Good. Now we know and we're better for it.

Well that's that then.

Funny how some desperate ggers rejoiced at the thought of a potential new ally in gog lol.

VG247 pulls support and coverage of GOG.com following pro GamerGate tweet [Update: GOG apology]

User requested account closure

Self-requested ban

Self-requested ban

One Winged Slayer

Losing is fun

User requested account closure

Game Designer

Game Developer

User requested account closure

The Shrouded Ghost

The Shrouded Ghost

User requested account closure

Come Sale Away With Me

User requested account closure