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John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,122
If you design something people call it trash, you don't think it's insulting?

Well I felt excluded from the talk from the thread title, so....

OP first post was asking for them to be treated like real people literally.
As a designer, if someone called my design trash I'd assume they had a limited vocabulary, but I wouldn't be particularly insulted. The most insulting/hurtful critiques are usually verbose and informed.

Why did you feel excluded? Plenty of other males have entered this discussion without issue. Also what would the point of a thread with this title be if it was ONLY directed at women? It's clearly meant to explain a woman's position to those who may not understand it clearly (i.e.- men).
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
A new character from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - NOT the latest Blade, in case someone does not want to be spoiled:

Rqdg6QF.jpg

Thoughts?

I think she has rickets.
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
Tbh I might get shit for this but certain hentai artists just shouldn't be allowed to guest in more mainstream games if they aren't able to keep their little girl fetish at bay for more than 5 minutes. Pedophilic designs do not belong in what's supposed to be Nintendo's big December game. Sexualizing adult female characters is one thing and it's definitely harmful in a variety of ways, but sexualizing prepubescent girls is on a whole new level.

Yeah, I´m playing through Stella Glow right now and seeing some of the sexualization of young (female) characters is just truly disturbing.

Edit: Relevant. I also really dislike when developers design a female character to look like she´s 12 at most, but because she´s some fantasy creature (vampire or witch etc.), they say that she´s 500 years old or will live forever, so they can pretend it´s fine to do the sexual portrayal. It´s such a goddamn lazy excuse and it doesn´t make anything better.
 
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Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,799
??
If you design something people call it trash, you don't think it's insulting?

Well I felt excluded from the talk from the thread title, so....

OP first post was asking for them to be treated like real people literally.

If I design something people take issue with, then that's fine. Part of design and creativity is having your product open to public scrutiny and criticism. If it hurts their poor, fragile egos, then that's their problem, not mine.

Yeah. It's a reflection on how people treat real women, whether it be through character design, portrayal and behaviors, or both. Art reflects reality, right?
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
Well I felt excluded from the talk from the thread title, so....

That's on you. Because for whatever reason you read "why women criticize sexualized character designs" as "no men allowed let's shit on a developer" apparently. In no way was that title exclusionary.

When I read the title I knew that I would be getting a female perspective on sexualized designs and why they feel they are bad, which I happen to agree on. I also knew that like with most things on Era I could discuss this topic with them as long as I was respectful.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
1. IMO it's distasteful to insult designers and call their designs "trash" multiple times in a single post, no matter how much you hate them. Criticisms and insults are two different things, and I think your post was leaning to the latter.
2. Your title is misleading. Nowhere do I find why women criticized sexualised character designs. It should be titled "Why I criticized sexualised character designs", simply of the fact that you were not speaking for other women besides yourself, nor you providing any statistics to back up your claims(how many women would insult the designers the way you did? for example).
3. Are you implying that men don't criticized sexualised character designs as much as women do with a thread like this? Is there any reason and what's your intention to minimize men with your thread?
4. Quiet and Cindy and Mario and Kratos, etc. are game/fantasy characters, so asking for them to be treated like real people is baffling. FYI Snake and Raiden were running around naked in their games too(not just Quiet), and none of the characters in FFXV were wearing appropriate clothings for combat(not just Cindy). So do you see what's wrong? You are asking for fantasy games to be realistic and you are fighting for the rights of game characters.
5. Quiet and Cindy are side characters who are barely in their respective games. Did you really let that stop you from enjoying the games? Seriously?

I just hope that people can play games the way they are meant to be played and try to enjoy them as much as they can, and know the differences between games and reality. Do you not understand that while you are protecting the rights of game characters you are actively insulting real life people(game developers)? Do you really think that you are accomplishing anything here in a gaming forum?

Personally how I would fight for women's right in real life: Vote, donate, protest on the streets, educate, get involved, and behave as a decent human being in the real world. Insulting game developers in a gaming forum is just not my thing personally, that's all.

I think it's dumb that you feel the need to list Mario with a bunch of photo realistic characters (correct me if I'm seeing but isn't Quiet literally modeled and based off a real woman?) to say "it's okay they're fantasy characters! You can just sweep the problems under the proverbial rug. Just enjoy the games." Believe it or not, you're not the first person to come in and try and make this argument.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
483
France
Asking for more diversity and better representations of female characters so that women (and men too) can enjoy video games more is acting like a feminazi bitch that wants to ruin "muh vidya gamz" to some people apparently.

"yeh gurlz stfu and enjoy the T&A, u bitch"

(Sorry this post wasn't very constructive but the discussion is a bit frustrating lmao)
 

FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,036
You aren't going to fix it. That train of thought is folly. You're pretty much asking for the entertainment media to change itself entirety. It's not going to happen. What you can do is stop being sensitive to it because nobody needs unnecessary stress in their life. I'll never understand why people choose to focus on what they don't like. Why look through at the world in a negative light? Why find things to complain about? What is the point of living if you surround yourself in negativity and stress yourself out by worriying about things beyond your control? Everybody, gaming is about having fun. If you don't like something then don't associate yourself with it. It's really that simple. Find things that you do like and focus on that.
Are you serious with this nonsense? Yes, let's just give up trying to make the world a better place because it's not an easy thing to do? :/

Jesus.
 

GTAce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,169
Bonn, Germany
I love this forum. People being warned for mansplaining made my day (seriously).

Also, thanks for the thread. Some... of the posts here give really good insights, including the OP.
I can't really post something constructive, because everything was said already and the rest is just going in circles.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Asking for more diversity and better representations of female characters so that women (and men too) can enjoy video games more is acting like a feminazi bitch that wants to ruin "muh vidya gamz" to some people apparently.

"yeh gurlz stfu and enjoy the T&A, u bitch"

(Sorry this post wasn't very constructive but the discussion is a bit frustrating lmao)

And these same people wonder why women don't tend to go to video game forums too often. Well, geeze, given this thread, it's a wonder you gals come here at all. I'm going crazy like I'm in a time loop here.

Edit: The mods do make this thread a lot better and when this thread isn't being interrupted by mansplaining trolls, there's a lot of good discussion.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Tbh I might get shit for this but certain hentai artists just shouldn't be allowed to guest in more mainstream games if they aren't able to keep their little girl fetish at bay for more than 5 minutes. Pedophilic designs do not belong in what's supposed to be Nintendo's big December game. Sexualizing adult female characters is one thing and it's definitely harmful in a variety of ways, but sexualizing prepubescent girls is on a whole new level.

Nintendo of Japan treats their Japanese audience differently than their European and American branches for decades.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
And these same people wonder why women don't tend to go to video game forums too often. Well, geeze, given this thread, it's a wonder you gals come here at all. I'm going crazy like I'm in a time loop here.

Edit: The mods do make this thread a lot better and when this thread isn't being interrupted by mansplaining trolls, there's a lot of good discussion.

Yea, the feeling of arguments repeating every day is pretty grating. I can understand why people wouldn't even bother at a certain point. This post highlights that very well, unfortunately .

Probably the most funny or sad part, this OP is so upsetting for people that other forums are mad about it. Hopefully that's not related to the spike of drive by posters recently.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Wow.

The #1 "argument" from dudes barging in this thread is to tell women "vote with your wallet" or "buy something else". When someone literally said they do that, that's your answer? Really?

So because others make dumb arguments I'm not allowed to think that catering to those arguments is silly? Really?

I want this to be perfectly clear I'm not making that argument those dudes make. In fact I actually disagree with their argument because I don't think somebody should not play a game due to one factor they dislike. They should criticize it because things don't get better unless somebody calls a spade a spade.
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
I didn't follow this thread much until now, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see some people bringing up the same old flawed, disingenuous, derailing, or dismissive arguments that always seem to plague threads on diversity or representation issues. I made a thread on the old forum about how those arguments undermine / shut down / derail discussion, and it's sad to see that such a thread is apparently still very relevant. I'm working on a complete rewrite of that old thread, but it might take a while due to real life stuff + not being sure on how to frame it and what to cut down on (what is even the thread character limit here?).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,399
So because others make dumb arguments I'm not allowed to think that catering to those arguments is silly? Really?

I want this to be perfectly clear I'm not making that argument those dudes make. In fact I actually disagree with their argument because I don't think somebody should not play a game due to one factor they dislike. They should criticize it because things don't get better unless somebody calls a spade a spade.
Fair enough. But surely you can see why that'd be frustrating from their point of view, considering the context of this thread.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
483
France
And these same people wonder why women don't tend to go to video game forums too often. Well, geeze, given this thread, it's a wonder you gals come here at all. I'm going crazy like I'm in a time loop here.

Edit: The mods do make this thread a lot better and when this thread isn't being interrupted by mansplaining trolls, there's a lot of good discussion.

I mean, I consider myself lucky compared to some women sometimes. I've been playing video games since I was 4. My big brother played video games, so I liked playing with him or watching him play sometimes. At school, my friends were mostly boys who love video games too (I had some girl friends, but they were rarely interested in video games). So video games are a big part of my life. I think I have never faced a situation in which I got rejected because I was a girl. But I've seen a lot of women being insulted or mocked because they dare to be women that play video games, and this is really disgusting and unfair. Sometimes I ask myself "why people are so fucking stupid and mean", but pfff I know the reason.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Fair enough. But surely you can see why that'd be frustrating from their point of view, considering the context of this thread.

I understand, I do. It's frustrating for me too when I post something with literally no ill intent and people think I'm trying to be a dick. Perhaps I should word my posts better.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
So because others make dumb arguments I'm not allowed to think that catering to those arguments is silly? Really?

I want this to be perfectly clear I'm not making that argument those dudes make. In fact I actually disagree with their argument because I don't think somebody should not play a game due to one factor they dislike. They should criticize it because things don't get better unless somebody calls a spade a spade.
While you are not endorsing the "vote with your wallet" dismissal that is so common on video game boards, you are still criticising my personal budgetary choices. Therefore, you are doing the same thing that "vote with your wallet" people do, just from the other direction.

"Silly" is a word of judgement. You have presented no arguments supporting your own point of view, but judge mine. (Which you are free to do, and to speak. I wouldn't want to interfere with your ability to speak up on any topic, even ones that have no relation to you.)
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

https://www.polygon.com/2016/1/21/10810944/fire-emblem-fates-nintendo-drugging-scene

In the version of the game that ships in the U.S. and Europe, there is no expression which might be considered as gay conversion or drugging that occurs between characters.
Making changes is not unusual when we localize games, and we have indeed made changes in these games. When we localize a game we do so in order to make it appropriate for that particular territory. All our choices were made from that point of view.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
https://www.polygon.com/2016/1/21/10810944/fire-emblem-fates-nintendo-drugging-scene

In the version of the game that ships in the U.S. and Europe, there is no expression which might be considered as gay conversion or drugging that occurs between characters.
Making changes is not unusual when we localize games, and we have indeed made changes in these games. When we localize a game we do so in order to make it appropriate for that particular territory. All our choices were made from that point of view.

... I still have no idea what you're trying to say. Care to elaborate on what that has to do with pedophilic designs in Nintendo's biggest winter game?
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
While you are not endorsing the "vote with your wallet" dismissal that is so common on video game boards, you are still criticising my personal budgetary choices. Therefore, you are doing the same thing that "vote with your wallet" people do, just from the other direction.

"Silly" is a word of judgement. You have presented no arguments supporting your own point of view, but judge mine. (Which you are free to do, and to speak. I wouldn't want to interfere with your ability to speak up on any topic, even ones that have no relation to you.)

What? My argument was it's one thing in a giant game. Which is why I think it's silly to not buy it over that one thing. You don't have to listen to me but dial down on the contempt please.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,221
UK
Mechanic in 1995
ft6.png

Mechanic in 2016
cindy_ffxv_small.jpg

We've come a long way in twenty years... I also want to share this article by Cara Ellison https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/20/s-exe-full-throttle/
Full Throttle spoilers! But who am I kidding nobody here will play it ever anyway :( Tim Schafer is a legend and his portrayal of women has always been more than respectful.
Full Throttle got remastered, so quite a few people now get to experience it for the first time :) As usual, great Cara Ellison article.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Nowhere do I find why women criticized sexualised character designs.

Then perhaps you didn't care to look too hard:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...ed-character-designs.4483/page-13#post-699804
Right there you have the opinions of 15 women in a single post alongside why people like you put them off from speaking up in the first place.

Also relevant:
Enough with the derail nitpicking over the quantifiers, or lack thereof, of the title. This is just another derail / deflection attempt and it's insulting and dismissive of the many women who posted in this thread, implying that "they don't count" because they don't match individual anecdotes.

Don't do this. It's incredibly insulting and dismissive towards all of the women who posted in this thread, not to mention the OP who put effort in her thread. Moreover, if you peek at the REgals (Women of ERA) OT you will see tons more women saying they feel absolutely disgusted by this thread and won't even touch it because it's so exhausting to address the same old bad arguments over and over.

Also, all the "my wife/girlfriend/sister/neighbour thinks it's fine/funny/doesn't mind/she loves it" -- stop doing that, people. You might not realize it or do it intentionally, but by using someone else like that as a shield (someone who isn't even speaking for themselves, mind) you are being rude and dismissive of the women who ARE actually speaking up. I mean, I could easily say, "Okay, well, my boyfriend read your post and thinks you're wrong, so there", but then you'd find that comment pretty ridiculous, right? So, kindly stop doing that (not just you, but everyone else). If your SOs disagree so strongly, let them register and post their thoughts themselves. Bringing up your unverifiable anecdotes as a shield is meaningless.


It's not villanization of sexualization, it's criticism of sexist stereotypes; and feminism is most definitely not "synonymous with censorship" by any stretch of the imagination.
 

MaskedNdi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
Many Japanese games were unreleased outside Japan and for a reason.

princessmaker-ds-home_page.jpg

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is being released in North America on December 1st. There's even a North American commercial. None of your comments are relevant to this game.

By the way, Princess Maker 1 through 3 have been released here. They're all available to purchase on Steam. CFK Co is also planning to bring over Princess Maker 4 and 5.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
What? My argument was it's one thing in a giant game. Which is why I think it's silly to not buy it over that one thing. You don't have to listen to me but dial down on the contempt please.
What if [treatment of female characters] is in fact, the one thing that I use to determine the value of "a giant game"?

Your opinion of my opinion - that it is silly - is contemptuous of my decision making. And yet you expect a response of a different tone?
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is being released in North America on December 1st. It has even received a North American commercial. None of your comments are relevant to this game.

By the way, Princess Maker 1 through 3 have been released here. They're all available to purchase on Steam. CFK Co is also planning to bring over Princess Maker 4 and 5.

I meant on Nintendo consoles. NDS version was only translated in Korea. There was also a Super Famicom version.
After the fiasco that happened with Fire Emblem, Nintendo preferred to listen to their Japanese audience instead. Game will sell better in Japan after all.

Did you even play a Princess Maker game? It's pretty tame.

Depends. You can do the most tame stuff but also the most perverted stuff, especially in PM2. They also feature vacation pictures with underage nudity. PM3-5 though feature less of this. But their scope is unparalleled overall.
 

Chrome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
378
Not liking a video game because of fanservice is also fine. It's ultimately a matter of taste. There really isn't a grounds for evaluating someone's taste as right or wrong, as it's their taste. It's absolutely subjective. Given that, I have no problem with why women may not like a character like Quiet and I think the way some groups react to such reasoning is childish. I think it's often assumed that when such critiques are made, the idea is that a normative statement is being made. That video games should not be like this, rather than an attempt to explain why someone may or may not like an aspect of a video game.

Personally, I think the problem has less to do with the content of the video game and more to do with how that content affects how someone interacts with real people in real life. If you want to play a game with sexy men or women, that's fine. Do what ever you want. No real skin off my nose. Where the problem of objectification comes from is how you treat people in real life. The matter is whether or not having sexy characters in a video game leads to someone objectifying people in real life. Similar to whether or not violent video games cause someone to be violent in real life. And while there are people who could be affected by such images in an extremely negative way, I feel that those people are in a tiny minority.

With that being said, there really isn't anything "wrong" with having scantily clad characters in a video game. Some people assume someone who critiques a game about such aspects are trying to make it such that video games like that don't exist, which is nothing more than a gross misunderstanding of what is being said.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
What if [treatment of female characters] is in fact, the one thing that I use to determine the value of "a giant game"?

Your opinion of my opinion - that it is silly - is contemptuous of my decision making. And yet you expect a response of a different tone?

I wasn't even trying to be contemptuous though. I'm sorry you got upset over "silly". I used that word specifically because I thought it wouldn't sound offensive. Just because you're tired of dealing with assholes on here doesn't mean you should regard anyone critical over your ideas or methods as being instantly akin to those assholes.
 

Mr. Blue Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
... I still have no idea what you're trying to say. Care to elaborate on what that has to do with pedophilic designs in Nintendo's biggest winter game?
I don't think it's their point at all but since you bring up marketing it's pretty interesting to note, and I think I mentioned this before, that neither NoA or NoE have directly brought up any of the rare blades in their marketing, at least from what I've seen on their twitter and facebook accounts. Any reference to XC2 has simply been about the direct and generic trailers unlike the Japanese market which is heavily focused on displaying the rare blade artwork and intro animations. Goes to show that they're probably aware of the sort of reaction displaying some of those designs will bring. I'm curious whether there will be a group of people who buy it on name and brand alone over here only to be put off by blades once they start unlocking them.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
And...? Is that supposed to make pedophilic designs okay? Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is Nintendo's big bet for winter. Having sexualized little girls on a game that represents the company in that way is a horrible look.

I wrote my explanation. Never said it was fine. It is just that by playing various fan translated games for the NES and SNES, I realized that Nintendo of Japan was different from the Nintendo I grew up with
 

MaskedNdi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
I meant on Nintendo consoles. NDS version was only translated in Korea. There was also a Super Famicom version.
After the fiasco that happened with Fire Emblem, Nintendo preferred to listen to their Japanese audience instead. Game will sell better in Japan after all.

Fire Emblem Fates sold more copies in North America than Japan. According to the most recent numbers I have, it sold 780,000 units in Japan and 1.06 million units in North America. Xenoblade Chronicles also sold more in the west than in Japan.

Personally, I think the problem has less to do with the content of the video game and more to do with how that content affects how someone interacts with real people in real life. If you want to play a game with sexy men or women, that's fine. Do what ever you want. No real skin off my nose. Where the problem of objectification comes from is how you treat people in real life. The matter is whether or not having sexy characters in a video game leads to someone objectifying people in real life. Similar to whether or not violent video games cause someone to be violent in real life. And while there are people who could be affected by such images in an extremely negative way, I feel that those people are in a tiny minority.

I want to expand on this and say that it can be seriously depressing for women to play games with heavy objectification when we are already heavily objectified in our day-to-day life. It's disheartening to start up a game after a bad day only to see the female characters being treated like props or objects. Media can shape our norms and values, and I do believe that a lot of people internalize things when they see sexualized character designs, but I don't think that's the whole of the problem.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
I want to expand on this and say that it can be seriously depressing for women to play games with heavy objectification when we are already heavily objectified in our day-to-day life. It's disheartening to start up a game after a bad day only to see the female characters being treated like props or objects. Media can shape our norms and values, and I do believe that a lot of people internalize things when they see sexualized character designs, but I don't think that's the whole of the problem.

How are you heavily objectified in your day-to-day life?
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
okay it kind of bothers me that you said "it's pretty tame" instead of something like "it's not like that"

so, when you say "pretty tame", what's the part that makes it not... uh... completely tame?

Well when the princess grows up some of the outfits she wears depending on how you raise her can be revealing. But she's not a child then so it's okay.
 
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