Wow, didn't notice that. Really bizarre similarity though.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Notice how you rarely see women in these threads criticizing Bayonetta's design or character (even if they do criticize the camera in those games sometimes)?
That might be a hint for you
Recently I've been playing Battle Chef Brigade and on top of being an inventive, fun and gorgeous looking indie game, it also stars a variety of female characters with tasteful yet distinctive and pleasant designs. I've been enjoying these characters so much that I felt it was worth sharing:
Here's Mina, the protagonis
And some examples from the rest of the cast
(sorry for the YT thumbnail but these are hard to find).
Here's Mina, the protagonis
And some examples from the rest of the cast
(sorry for the YT thumbnail but these are hard to find).
I'm not keeping score, but you aren't saying it doesn't happen. I don't think I can say that either since she comes up as a dividing point so often, which does often include the characterization of the camera, but not always.
Dividing and controversial sure, but it's way more reasoned discussion and there are a LOT more women fighting against the examples in this thread that like Bayonneta than those.
Her being dividing on the issue is exactly why I said guys should use her as a hint. She is the perfect bridge to gap to seeing the problem clearly, if you critically think about what it is, holistically, that might make women like the character or at least tolerate her where as many other examples like Quiet are seen with total revulsion
Hopefully one can see why that makes distinction difficult: The realities of her design leave little to the imagination as a fact even outside of the camera's choice of focus. And even the agency created for the character suggests the desire to be seen, while the power set feels just as designed to facilitate the sexuality as "she breathes through her skin." Beyond that I can't say as my exposure to MGS:V is mostly informed by impressions here and elsewhere but there is in Bayonetta's case a clear desire to have the character in on the act at every level.
Which makes it hard to distinguish what the offensive elements are from a character design standpoint. I can certainly see the angle of women being singled out for sexualization, but both instances here dabble in that indulgence.
I mean, you pretty much came to the answer yourself.
In a perfect world of equal representation and respect, Bayonetta's design could just be a great design. But in an oversaturation of sexual female characters, she still has that baggage. But like you noted a bit, she is always in on it. Not only that, but she is in COMPLETE control. Notice how the one time it was super controversial was that boss fight in Bayo 2 where she was not in control.
As i said its a long time since i hav read it. Something i have been meaning to go back and re-read.
I just remember it being manly men with women fitting in the damsel more than a protagonist. But i view this more a product of the times.
My version of 1.5 should be with me in the next day or so. I love it. I think the problem Kingdom Death has is it has become represented by 2 things. The Wet Nurse and the pin up line. Neither of which are wholly representative of the game.
The wet nurse is just one of the many monsters you face and probably the most sexualised (in a horrific way). The pin up line is designed as a side line not necessarily a repressentation of the game.
User has been perma-banned: comes into the thread with a claim that has been rebuked several times already and argues in bad faith.
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames? It's not even a real problem at all. It's a media like the others. Are you gonna criticize porn movies cause the women is objectified? Ofc no. It's like complaining about tits in a fanservice game like senran kagura. If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
You're free to leave and not partipate in the discussion if it bothers you so much.
Name some videogames where sexism is a real issue then.
I agree with everything you said and the funniest part is, if games were more welcoming to women and respectful of them, they could sell HUGE amounts more. They have no idea how impenetrable or even offputting they make these games for females (or men that see females as people)
No, you leave. There are tons of examples in this thread of women not being portrayed as being humans with personalities, one or two in the OP even. You aren't blind, you are pretending it's a non issue. If it's not an issue to you that's fine but coming into a thread of people who do care and saying "YOU'RE ALL MAKING THIS UP IT'S NOT A REAL ISSUE" is literally just being a dick for the sake of it.
Maybe your point was that those examples are a problem and a small scale sexism but not a "real issue" but that's not actually something you get to decide
This is a 77 page thread. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples to scream at how wrong they are. I'm not going to entertain you.
Have you read the OP ? I said in my post there are two in the OP. If you read it it's extremely obvious what I'm talking about, therefore I have named some. Are you claiming they aren't sexist or that they aren't real issues or that nobody said them?
1. Representation in media is a real world problem. It has a direct effect on those who consume that media, especially at a young age.
2. Learn to spell.
I'm all but certain the devs and publisher know they are making for the 15-30 male demographic alone, who are one red pill away from the type who keep trying to bait this thread
I understand the criticism but why do they never show the same level of criticism towards cosplayers who take many of the designs and make them worse just for attention and profit?
I mean it even goes towards fan artists who draw favorite characters in sexual manners but the argument is always targeted at the developer/game rather then the people in the community abusing it and changing it for their sole profit.
This is my biggest pet peeve. You got sites like kotaku making articles about sexism in the game industry but then have entire articles about cosplayers showing off their bodies in skimpy clothing.
I mean it even goes towards fan artists who draw favorite characters in sexual manners but the argument is always targeted at the developer/game rather then the people in the community abusing it and changing it for their sole profit.
This is my biggest pet peeve. You got sites like kotaku making articles about sexism in the game industry but then have entire articles about cosplayers showing off their bodies in skimpy clothing.
Assuming you are referring to female cosplayers who wear sexualized designs, because your statement doesn't make much sense if applied to the entire cosplay community:
The complaints are about feeling excluded from an activity that women gamers want to partake in, namely, playing games. The existence of cosplayers does not impact that activity. Cosplayers will not, for instance, be included in a Supreme Box Set Collectible Version of a video game, or suddenly show up in a gamer's living room.
If you want to argue that overly-sexualized cosplay makes women feel uncomfortable at gaming events, that could apply, but would be a separate issue to the "video game content" issue.
Fan art is entirely irrelevant. It cannot legally be sold because it infringes on the content owners' Intellectual Property rights.
I have never seen an argument from women gamers complaining that random fans should not be allowed to create Rule 34 art because it impacts their ability to feel welcome playing video games.
The argument may have been poorly verbalized, but as is, this is either a weird side point or a strawman.
This is an interesting point about hypocrisy, yes.
Although I haven't personally SEEN articles from Kotaku showing off skimpy cosplay, if any company did so while also claiming to be inclusive, that would be a good question to ask management. Why foster something that inherently goes against a public company statement? (I am being entirely hypothetical here, not attacking Kotaku or any other specific company).
So women dressing up about as videogame characters in a more revealing manner isn't about the content in those videogames? It's tied into it as part of the community and the image is gives to it overall of what is acceptable. We want game developers to make better designs and the online community to be inclusive but then allow others in the game community to exploit it because it's not actually in-game? That seems to be a double standard.
Um fan art is regularly sold as prints, have you never been to a comic convention or deviant art?
Recently...
https://cosplay.kotaku.com/nsfw-overwatch-cosplay-was-the-star-of-the-show-1792766831
Um fan art is regularly sold as prints, have you never been to a comic convention or deviant art?
Recently...
https://cosplay.kotaku.com/nsfw-overwatch-cosplay-was-the-star-of-the-show-1792766831
The argument is that all of that stuff is outside the game. A woman can buy a game, play a game, and never interact with the community in any way. (I'm a guy but this is how I enjoy games.)
If the sexualised content is part of the game, that may alienate a bunch of women, and either cause them to not buy it or to buy it but enjoy it less than they otherwise would. Unlike the community stuff, it's unavoidable because it's in the game. That's the difference.
I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said it was illegal.
The intellectual property owners can shut down such sales using the legal tools available to them. Such as DMCA infringement notices to the site hosting such works, and suing people who sell at conventions for all profits they've made from intellectual property theft, as well as confiscation of all materials used to create such illegal works.
However, that issue doesn't relate at all to the one in the thread.
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A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
If this is really how you feel, you should be adding your voice to those asking developers to consider the effects that their design decisions will have.
As to your other points, it's not your place to tell other people what they are allowed to consider as dealbreakers.
People can boycott whatever they want. People have priorities, and for some , one thing has more weight than another.
Also, about your second paragraph, honestly, anything lore/story wise doesn't excuse designing a sexualized woman. You can add all the lore and words and deed and still the intention would be the same.
Women dressing up in sexy cosplay is their choice. They choose how to present their own body.
Developers making a choice on the behalf of women everywhere by presenting them in a damaging and demeaning way and saying "this is what everyone wants to see" is not the same kind of choice. We, as women, have no say in what a man does regarding our portrayal.
If a game is interested in trying to be mature in themes, concepts, and story, then maybe it should also be mature in sensible design.
Also, to the rest of your points, Pyra isn't the only blade with this problem, the Rare blades as a whole has this clear "women are sexualized, men are powerful" vibe going on with very few exceptions. Even the 'villain' organization shows this with every male villain dressed in full body covering armor while the one woman character we see has a cut in her uniform to show a bikini-like cover and thigh high socks, which is patently ridiculous because Morag is in this game and it shows that they are capable of having fascinating designs for women characters without sexualizing them up the wazoo.
I think people are also annoyed that you're going around collecting pretty women as tools. I could be wrong though, haven't followed the Xeno2 stuff that closely.
Anyways, people make the choice not to buy games due to the most inane reasons, from the controls, the box art, something some person said on a forum, the release of another game in the same window of time, bad vibe after watching a trailer, etc. Someone can go from buying a game to passing on it in the blink of an eye. It seems like people only really panic and try to discredit their reasoning when they're choosing to skip out on a game due to something they consider problematic. Also, all things considered, character design is a big deal especially in a JRPG.
Yup. If a game wants its story/character/themes to be taken seriously, then maybe it shouldn't directly undermine those very things by throwing in cheap titillation. (Kojima is the best at this; hey let's talk about torture and child soldiers and how fucked up war is and propaganda and nuclear waste issues and oh look AT DAT ASS *__*)
As for the rest, well, once again, I can't help but find it amusing to see so many people saying "vote with your wallet", and on the other side, so many going "what, you're gonna miss out on this great game because of ___??". Yeah, not necessarily coming from the same people, but still, just shows that we can't win right?
Sure, except in most examples, the actual sexual nature of the gaze of the camera of the design of the character very rarely factors into the character themselves. Camila is a great example of this, the big leggy busty older lady type in image alone. Her actual personality is a bit of demur sis-con who hates being caught within romatic gazes of men. Her sexuality isn't contextualized, it's there purely for the player's gaze. This is the case with almost every act of objectification in gaming, it's there for no reason but tittilation of the player. They are a conscious choice that do not benefit the greater work, they are simply there to be eyecandy. And that's a problem.
Context is king, but it's also more work, work that often doesn't have to happen due to the "that's mai waifu" nature of the audience of these things.
1.) It's not hard to understand why some people wouldn't want the characters in a sequel to a game they liked to be sexualized out of the gate. This didn't happened in XBlade 1, the skimpiest outfits being optional collectables.
2.) The males blades aren't dressed this way, many of them having particularly busy outfits or uniforms
Male blade:
Female blade:
The closest you'll probably see of a male blade with a sexualized design in Gorg...
...and even then, he still manages to get pants.
3.) Voting for your wallet always speaks volumes and voicing your criticisms is paramount. If the game turns you away because it's portraying 12 year olds in particularly lewd outfits, it's fine to say, "this is why I don't want to be here".
4.) Honestly, Pyra's design is dumb but I would be willing to pass it off as, "lol japan" if she were the only one. Look at the other female characters in that game. It's literally the 1000 year old dragon problem again with little girls in pasties and t-backs running around. If I had to guess, Xblade2 is going to be an example of, "all women who are good are running around thongs and string tops, and all the women who are evil will be fully clothed or in uniforms".
Xenoblade 2 has a design problem.
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I agree but I just meant if they could stop it for a couple years, and make games more interesting to both genders, the female demographic would grow hugely. At that point they'd never be able to go back because profits would be so improved. I know it's not that realistic to actually happen but that depresses me.
Women already represent 40% of gamers out there. That doesn't stop the lionshare of marketing for video games to be focused towards the 12-28 male demographic.
In a near future setting where poverty has gone more rampant and nations go to war for the simplest of resources. Cyborgs now do the most dangerous jobs. Perhaps it is slavery and maybe we can explore what it means to be human. You, a former soldier, come into contact with the liberation movement fighting for the freedom of all sentient life... Now here's a woman who looks 16 in a metal bikini and high heels. Nice, eh? Let's zoom the camera in a bit more.
Not quite true, Dragon Age Inquisition was definetly designed with women in mind, all the female characters are very varied and have detailed characters (the male characters as well). It had the best launch BioWare ever has had and it apparently had a 48% female playerbase. So there are some inroads happening.
But like I said, there are plenty of example of different types of media objectifying both sexes, so it's not just half of the population that feel that. I also doubt that you will ever see people suddenly stop objectifying people when we've been doing it for pretty much ever. Seems like it'd be better to teach people the difference between fiction and reality than to expect objectifying to stop anytime soon.
I LOVE the "would you criticize porn!?!? lolol" "argument" like there aren't entire books criticizing the porn industry from a feminist perspective
I'm not boycotting Xenoblade 2. I'm not buying it because I know the way it treats women will make it harder for me to enjoy the game. I'm not going to spend $60 on a game I think I'll have a bad time with.
No one is criticizing real women that show skin. This has nothing to do with what actual women choose to wear. This is about game developers going out of their way to objectify their female characters.
And this issue isn't just about Pyra's outfit. It's about the way the camera ogles Pyra, even in story cutscenes. It's about the game's ridiculous breast physics.
It's about the many hypersexualized Blade designs, some of which look like children:
It's that most of this stuff is unavoidable. I can't put Pyra in armor or control which rare Blades I get. If I play the game, I have to put up with all of this.
And why shouldn't any of this be a dealbreaker? It's an entertainment product
I don't care if Pyra is a 1,000-year-old thong-wearing magical sword who breathes through her skin. There's no in-game explanation that will make me feel better about any of this. Monolith Soft chose to fill their game with pandering, objectifying designs. Some people are going to be alienated by that. If that has a negative impact on their sales, that's their problem, not mine.
Anime does this a lot, too. Plenty of interesting stories/premises shut out a fuckton of potential viewers because they can't help pandering to creepy otaku with sexualised schoolgirls and tit "gags" :S
I love that it's Soraya Saga who did that design, if only because I want to imagine the conversation she had with her husband...
TT: "Well, we're going for a sexy girls and cool guys look, so if you could-"
SS: "Fuck that, I'm drawing a sexy shirtless guy in tight trousers."
TT: "But-"
SS: *glare*
I may not have been clear enough but that's essentially what I was saying the problem is. 40% of gamers may be women but I'm willing to bet 40% of AAA major publishers game sales aren't because those games aren't developed, written or marketed with females in mind.
There are more great games than I can possibly play in a lifetime. I have decided to give games a pass over a lot less than a female main character with a child-like face and clothes so skimpy her arse is hanging out because the developer doesn't have enough confidence in their game for it to appeal on its own merits without needing to pander to men who get their jollies from "fan service" and I don't really care what the daft narrative justification is.
Sure, except in most examples, the actual sexual nature of the gaze of the camera of the design of the character very rarely factors into the character themselves. Camila is a great example of this, the big leggy busty older lady type in image alone. Her actual personality is a bit of demur sis-con who hates being caught within romatic gazes of men. Her sexuality isn't contextualized, it's there purely for the player's gaze. This is the case with almost every act of objectification in gaming, it's there for no reason but tittilation of the player. They are a conscious choice that do not benefit the greater work, they are simply there to be eyecandy. And that's a problem.
Context is king, but it's also more work, work that often doesn't have to happen due to the "that's mai waifu" nature of the audience of these things.
1.) It's not hard to understand why some people wouldn't want the characters in a sequel to a game they liked to be sexualized out of the gate. This didn't happened in XBlade 1, the skimpiest outfits being optional collectables.
2.) The males blades aren't dressed this way, many of them having particularly busy outfits or uniforms
Male blade:
Female blade:
The closest you'll probably see of a male blade with a sexualized design in Gorg...
...and even then, he still manages to get pants.
3.) Voting for your wallet always speaks volumes and voicing your criticisms is paramount. If the game turns you away because it's portraying 12 year olds in particularly lewd outfits, it's fine to say, "this is why I don't want to be here".
4.) Honestly, Pyra's design is dumb but I would be willing to pass it off as, "lol japan" if she were the only one. Look at the other female characters in that game. It's literally the 1000 year old dragon problem again with little girls in pasties and t-backs running around. If I had to guess, Xblade2 is going to be an example of, "all women who are good are running around thongs and string tops, and all the women who are evil will be fully clothed or in uniforms".
Xenoblade 2 has a design problem.
The blades are designed by many different anime/manga artists so they will look like anime is today, well yes somehow sexist. Also i understand why some people don't like Pyras outfit, as i said, i would have preferred a different one myself.
It's just that there is a possibility that the anime tropes could be deconstructed in the game somehow, in Xenoblade isn't always everything as it seems, so it could get some meaning why blades are like they are. We'll have to wait and see for that.
I'm not saying nobody should vote with their wallet, it's a little bit hard for me wording it correct in english (i understand the language almost perfectly, but writing is a different case). It's more ment to be an impulse to think about it a second time, knowing Xenoblade the game will have much more to offer and reading the previews Pyra for example seems to be well written.
And i wouldn't judge the antagonist woman in uniform (the only one i know of) as "evil" yet. She seems to be concerned about the world and is one of the strongest drivers and stands in your way, but she probably has her reasons as seen in the previews, i like the character to be honest if you mean her.
@Xenoblade 1: Sharla had a sexy outfit from the start and for a spoilercharacter there are even much worse costumes. I would have preferred to have the ability to give the characters different clothings as well, but for the blades, they are summoned how they are and developing more clothes for that amount of characters would probably have been to much.
As much as I am a fan of the series, I have limited funds and there are a lot of great games out there. By choosing to opt out of this game, I'm saving myself a lot of annoyance during my gaming experience. It's less about sending a message with my purchasing decisions and more about spending my money elsewhere.
Yeah it's a dealbreaker for me, and it's not just Pyra as other posters have alluded to. I'm not in that demographic of young men anymore; I'm too old for this gross form of pandering. This is also not real life where a woman has agency about what she wears. This is a design choice by men made for the express purpose of flashing T&A, and at the expense of the tone of the story they are trying to convey. This is a tone-deaf design choice that reinforces a systemic issue that has real consequences for real people. The game even backtracks on the relatively sensible default character designs of XC1 and the customization options of XCX. It's baffling, disappointing, and insulting.
That's even worse. "The girl is a sword, so we can just make her wearing next to nothing!" Literal objectification.
Even you are trying to justify the ickiness in your own head. Doesn't that say something? The fact that Rex looks super young and is paired up with a character that looks like Pyra makes me super uncomfortable. I'm not against the young romances that this game seems to be veering towards (see my "avatar", ha!), but I can't take their relationship seriously when Pyra is a walking talking adolescent fantasy who needs saving. Barf.
Your opinion has been expressed many many times in many many threads, but I and many others have already considered it if you would read through this discussion. Choosing to critique a game or choosing to opt out does a lot. It shows an appetite for better forms of depiction in this day and age. It shows those who feel excluded by this type of design choice that they are not alone. So yeah, shining a light on this and saying "this is not OK" does make a difference. And again for me personally, it helps me save my money for games that do things right.
It is sad. I am sad that I won't be able to play this game. But I'm not super hung up about it. There are games that have better depictions of female characters. There are better games that explore those same themes (which to be honest, are not delved into with any depth or subtlety anyways). I can live with my choice.
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