Wow, didn't notice that. Really bizarre similarity though.Is it just me, or does this look a lot like the "Destroy This Mad Brute" propaganda poster? Wonder if it's an intentional reference.
Wow, didn't notice that. Really bizarre similarity though.Is it just me, or does this look a lot like the "Destroy This Mad Brute" propaganda poster? Wonder if it's an intentional reference.
Notice how you rarely see women in these threads criticizing Bayonetta's design or character (even if they do criticize the camera in those games sometimes)?Except they are, by every possible shot, long or not. Otherwise the framing of your argument makes no sense. Character designs are conscious choices. If there is any sexuality then that character was created with that in mind and thus "exploited" for that purpose. All characters are objects created to solicit specific responses after all.
Notice how you rarely see women in these threads criticizing Bayonetta's design or character (even if they do criticize the camera in those games sometimes)?
That might be a hint for you
Dividing and controversial sure, but it's way more reasoned discussion and there are a LOT more women fighting against the examples in this thread that like Bayonneta than those.I'm not keeping score, but you aren't saying it doesn't happen. I don't think I can say that either since she comes up as a dividing point so often, which does often include the characterization of the camera, but not always.
Dividing and controversial sure, but it's way more reasoned discussion and there are a LOT more women fighting against the examples in this thread that like Bayonneta than those.
Her being dividing on the issue is exactly why I said guys should use her as a hint. She is the perfect bridge to gap to seeing the problem clearly, if you critically think about what it is, holistically, that might make women like the character or at least tolerate her where as many other examples like Quiet are seen with total revulsion
I mean, you pretty much came to the answer yourself.Hopefully one can see why that makes distinction difficult: The realities of her design leave little to the imagination as a fact even outside of the camera's choice of focus. And even the agency created for the character suggests the desire to be seen, while the power set feels just as designed to facilitate the sexuality as "she breathes through her skin." Beyond that I can't say as my exposure to MGS:V is mostly informed by impressions here and elsewhere but there is in Bayonetta's case a clear desire to have the character in on the act at every level.
Which makes it hard to distinguish what the offensive elements are from a character design standpoint. I can certainly see the angle of women being singled out for sexualization, but both instances here dabble in that indulgence.
Only Mamiya is handled in a very demeaning manner so as to show the sadism of Judah.
The best thing about Hokuno no Ken and its prequel is that all the male protagonists are filled with honour and deeply regret their deeds. Both good and bad guys. In Souten no Ken there is a scene where a superhuman fighter regrets having killed the dad of one little girl. He gives a gun to her and begs her to shoot him for revenge!
That being said, my favorite tabletop game of all time is Kingdom Death, a game that has a reputation for problematic art.
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames? It's not even a real problem at all. It's a media like the others. Are you gonna criticize porn movies cause the women is objectified? Ofc no. It's like complaining about tits in a fanservice game like senran kagura. If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames?
You're free to leave and not partipate in the discussion if it bothers you so much.
This is a 77 page thread. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples to scream at how wrong they are. I'm not going to entertain you.
No, you leave. There are tons of examples in this thread of women not being portrayed as being humans with personalities, one or two in the OP even. You aren't blind, you are pretending it's a non issue. If it's not an issue to you that's fine but coming into a thread of people who do care and saying "YOU'RE ALL MAKING THIS UP IT'S NOT A REAL ISSUE" is literally just being a dick for the sake of it.
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames? It's not even a real problem at all. It's a media like the others. Are you gonna criticize porn movies cause the women is objectified? Ofc no. It's like complaining about tits in a fanservice game like senran kagura. If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
1. Representation in media is a real world problem. It has a direct effect on those who consume that media, especially at a young age.If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames? It's not even a real problem at all. It's a media like the others. Are you gonna criticize porn movies cause the women is objectified? Ofc no. It's like complaining about tits in a fanservice game like senran kagura. If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
I'm all but certain the devs and publisher know they are making for the 15-30 male demographic alone, who are one red pill away from the type who keep trying to bait this threadI agree with everything you said and the funniest part is, if games were more welcoming to women and respectful of them, they could sell HUGE amounts more. They have no idea how impenetrable or even offputting they make these games for females (or men that see females as people)
Can we please stop this stupid argument of sexism in videogames? It's not even a real problem at all. [...] If you are a real feminist you should focus on real world problems, not on fittious ones.
Assuming you are referring to female cosplayers who wear sexualized designs, because your statement doesn't make much sense if applied to the entire cosplay community:I understand the criticism but why do they never show the same level of criticism towards cosplayers who take many of the designs and make them worse just for attention and profit?
Fan art is entirely irrelevant. It cannot legally be sold because it infringes on the content owners' Intellectual Property rights.I mean it even goes towards fan artists who draw favorite characters in sexual manners but the argument is always targeted at the developer/game rather then the people in the community abusing it and changing it for their sole profit.
This is an interesting point about hypocrisy, yes.This is my biggest pet peeve. You got sites like kotaku making articles about sexism in the game industry but then have entire articles about cosplayers showing off their bodies in skimpy clothing.
So women dressing up about as videogame characters in a more revealing manner isn't about the content in those videogames? It's tied into it as part of the community and the image is gives to it overall of what is acceptable. We want game developers to make better designs and the online community to be inclusive but then allow others in the game community to exploit it because it's not actually in-game? That seems to be a double standard.
Um fan art is regularly sold as prints, have you never been to a comic convention or deviant art?
Recently...
https://cosplay.kotaku.com/nsfw-overwatch-cosplay-was-the-star-of-the-show-1792766831
I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said it was illegal.Um fan art is regularly sold as prints, have you never been to a comic convention or deviant art?
If this is really how you feel, you should be adding your voice to those asking developers to consider the effects that their design decisions will have.Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
Women dressing up in sexy cosplay is their choice. They choose how to present their own body.So women dressing up about as videogame characters in a more revealing manner isn't about the content in those videogames? It's tied into it as part of the community and the image is gives to it overall of what is acceptable. We want game developers to make better designs and the online community to be inclusive but then allow others in the game community to exploit it because it's not actually in-game? That seems to be a double standard.
Um fan art is regularly sold as prints, have you never been to a comic convention or deviant art?
Recently...
https://cosplay.kotaku.com/nsfw-overwatch-cosplay-was-the-star-of-the-show-1792766831
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
Yup. If a game wants its story/character/themes to be taken seriously, then maybe it shouldn't directly undermine those very things by throwing in cheap titillation. (Kojima is the best at this; hey let's talk about torture and child soldiers and how fucked up war is and propaganda and nuclear waste issues and oh look AT DAT ASS *__*)If a game is interested in trying to be mature in themes, concepts, and story, then maybe it should also be mature in sensible design.
Sure, except in most examples, the actual sexual nature of the gaze of the camera of the design of the character very rarely factors into the character themselves. Camila is a great example of this, the big leggy busty older lady type in image alone. Her actual personality is a bit of demur sis-con who hates being caught within romatic gazes of men. Her sexuality isn't contextualized, it's there purely for the player's gaze. This is the case with almost every act of objectification in gaming, it's there for no reason but tittilation of the player. They are a conscious choice that do not benefit the greater work, they are simply there to be eyecandy. And that's a problem.Except they are, by every possible shot, long or not. Otherwise the framing of your argument makes no sense. Character designs are conscious choices. If there is any sexuality then that character was created with that in mind and thus "exploited" for that purpose. All characters are objects created to solicit specific responses after all.
1.) It's not hard to understand why some people wouldn't want the characters in a sequel to a game they liked to be sexualized out of the gate. This didn't happened in XBlade 1, the skimpiest outfits being optional collectables.A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
I'm all but certain the devs and publisher know they are making for the 15-30 male demographic alone, who are one red pill away from the type who keep trying to bait this thread
Women already represent 40% of gamers out there. That doesn't stop the lionshare of marketing for video games to be focused towards the 12-28 male demographic.I agree but I just meant if they could stop it for a couple years, and make games more interesting to both genders, the female demographic would grow hugely. At that point they'd never be able to go back because profits would be so improved. I know it's not that realistic to actually happen but that depresses me.
Yup. If a game wants its story/character/themes to be taken seriously, then maybe it shouldn't directly undermine those very things by throwing in cheap titillation. (Kojima is the best at this; hey let's talk about torture and child soldiers and how fucked up war is and propaganda and nuclear waste issues and oh look AT DAT ASS *__*)
Not quite true, Dragon Age Inquisition was definetly designed with women in mind, all the female characters are very varied and have detailed characters (the male characters as well). It had the best launch BioWare ever has had and it apparently had a 48% female playerbase. So there are some inroads happening.I agree but I just meant if they could stop it for a couple years, and make games more interesting to both genders, the female demographic would grow hugely. At that point they'd never be able to go back because profits would be so improved. I know it's not that realistic to actually happen but that depresses me.
No. The solution is not sexualize more men. We shouldn't be seeking the lowest common denominator.
Also, it is easy to say one is more right than the other. It's really easy. The one that doesn't demean half the population and contribute to a social consciousness of women as objects to be controlled, won and ogled is the right one. Far and away. It's not even a contest.
A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits.
As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
If a game wants its story/character/themes to be taken seriously, then maybe it shouldn't directly undermine those very things by throwing in cheap titillation.
The closest you'll probably see of a male blade with a sexualized design in Gorg...
Women already represent 40% of gamers out there. That doesn't stop the lionshare of marketing for video games to be focused towards the 12-28 male demographic.
A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews. I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks. I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.
I think people are also annoyed that you're going around collecting pretty women as tools. I could be wrong though, haven't followed the Xeno2 stuff that closely.
Anyways, people make the choice not to buy games due to the most inane reasons, from the controls, the box art, something some person said on a forum, the release of another game in the same window of time, bad vibe after watching a trailer, etc. Someone can go from buying a game to passing on it in the blink of an eye. It seems like people only really panic and try to discredit their reasoning when they're choosing to skip out on a game due to something they consider problematic. Also, all things considered, character design is a big deal especially in a JRPG.
Sure, except in most examples, the actual sexual nature of the gaze of the camera of the design of the character very rarely factors into the character themselves. Camila is a great example of this, the big leggy busty older lady type in image alone. Her actual personality is a bit of demur sis-con who hates being caught within romatic gazes of men. Her sexuality isn't contextualized, it's there purely for the player's gaze. This is the case with almost every act of objectification in gaming, it's there for no reason but tittilation of the player. They are a conscious choice that do not benefit the greater work, they are simply there to be eyecandy. And that's a problem.
Context is king, but it's also more work, work that often doesn't have to happen due to the "that's mai waifu" nature of the audience of these things.
1.) It's not hard to understand why some people wouldn't want the characters in a sequel to a game they liked to be sexualized out of the gate. This didn't happened in XBlade 1, the skimpiest outfits being optional collectables.
2.) The males blades aren't dressed this way, many of them having particularly busy outfits or uniforms
Male blade:
Female blade:
The closest you'll probably see of a male blade with a sexualized design in Gorg...
...and even then, he still manages to get pants.
3.) Voting for your wallet always speaks volumes and voicing your criticisms is paramount. If the game turns you away because it's portraying 12 year olds in particularly lewd outfits, it's fine to say, "this is why I don't want to be here".
4.) Honestly, Pyra's design is dumb but I would be willing to pass it off as, "lol japan" if she were the only one. Look at the other female characters in that game. It's literally the 1000 year old dragon problem again with little girls in pasties and t-backs running around. If I had to guess, Xblade2 is going to be an example of, "all women who are good are running around thongs and string tops, and all the women who are evil will be fully clothed or in uniforms".
Xenoblade 2 has a design problem.
A few thoughts about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Pyra: I can fully understand that some where a little bit shocked by the design of Pyra (Xenoblade 2), but what i personally don't understand that some of you boycott the game because of some pantys and boobs, as the character as a whole is said to be awesome and likeable in many previews.
I understand the criticism and i would have given her a different outfit too (if i was in charge), i certainly haven't fully accustomed to her look myself, but imo there is more to such a game and characters than their outfits. As in reallife i wouldn't think bad about women that dress less appropriate/show too much skin, even if i find it somehow tasteless, that doesn't say everything about their character and it's off course their choice to wear what they want. Pyra was probably designed to please young men/players, she could have been designed more serious, but should it be a dealbreaker?.
I have some thoughts there: She is a blade and not human, thinking about the crazy meta stuff in Xenoblade it could even be explained in the game, depending on who created the blades and gave them their looks.
Even you are trying to justify the ickiness in your own head. Doesn't that say something? The fact that Rex looks super young and is paired up with a character that looks like Pyra makes me super uncomfortable. I'm not against the young romances that this game seems to be veering towards (see my "avatar", ha!), but I can't take their relationship seriously when Pyra is a walking talking adolescent fantasy who needs saving. Barf.I also wonder if Rex sees her that way and "gives" her this form (as he is a teenage boy) or she chooses this form to attract him, remember she is an old weapon and we don't know if her human form is her real form. What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
What i want to say: People are jumping to conclusions a little bit too fast and even if i'm wrong, i don't think the character should be judged by her clothings alone. (the criticism of the clothings, if it has no other reason than fanservice, is totally ok, if you don't like it, but boycotting it if you are interested is a little bit much and probably won't change anything)
Also it's a little bit sad that some people will miss an otherwise probably great jrpg which eleborates on some interesting themes (fights about ressources, refugees, different cultures living together etc.) because of some design decisions.