Yeah, I mean if Bozo the clown suddenly showed up as a buddy in MGSV, I'd find that really weird and incongruous with everything else in the game. Same with Quiet.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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As far as I'm concerned, everyone has a responsibility to everyone else to make an effort to be kind and understanding, rather than be selfish and only strive to make the world better for themselves.
Of course, that ain't the world we live in. And this is getting way too broad.
But to narrow it down, developers have a responsibility to listen to people and grow and do their best to respect those who consume their works. Sometimes, that means ignoring assholes who don't give a shit about other people.
Of course, that ain't the world we live in. And this is getting way too broad.
But to narrow it down, developers have a responsibility to listen to people and grow and do their best to respect those who consume their works. Sometimes, that means ignoring assholes who don't give a shit about other people.
Eh, breasts aren't going to vanish overnight just because people want less female objectification in video games?
User has been permanetly banned for this post.
So THIS is where the scum of the internet known as NEOgaf went their leader got charged for sexual assault. After reading this thread i understand why no other forum wanted to host the refugee users.
Hahaha, sorry but you are delusional, just look at Overwatch's popularity. Pussy sells, baby 8) .
You can ban me from your moral masturbation white-knighting echochamber now, i said what i wanted to say.
Focus on real problems and real women issues like for example the way they get treated like worthless objects in the middle east or india. OH WAIT, you don't give a shit, sorry, i guess that bringing cartoon girls away to some single men is more important.
Stay well :)
Image removed for voliation of ToS.
Hahaha, sorry but you are delusional, just look at Overwatch's popularity. Pussy sells, baby 8) .
You can ban me from your moral masturbation white-knighting echochamber now, i said what i wanted to say.
Focus on real problems and real women issues like for example the way they get treated like worthless objects in the middle east or india. OH WAIT, you don't give a shit, sorry, i guess that bringing cartoon girls away to some single men is more important.
Stay well :)
Image removed for voliation of ToS.
Last time I checked, for every breast we remove from games, a woman in real life loses hers.
Yup. I'm not American, I have nothing against nudity and sex. Even though I'm extremely shy and reserved about my own body, which is pretty uncommon for the culture I come from. But I don't like the sexist and adolescent portrayal of women that I too often see in games. Those are entirely different issues.
The idea for this thread was simply to make more people aware of this issue.
It's not to set up a plan of action by the end of the month.
Regarding the bolded. All other art forms have established feminist critique. At the moment, when gamers hear about feminist critique, they self destruct. Fixing this response would be a decent goal.
I also don't think anyone here is asking anything of game devs that isn't already asked of film directors.
Edit: uh, okay.
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Its also not just for the benefit of the public, but it can also have a positive outcome for the artist and the quality/integrity of their work. Personally I'd cosider MGSV closer to being a genuine work of art without Quite's design and troublesome story elements, despite its other shortcomings.
Cameras don't point at stuff 'in nature'.
You can stare at boobs without the camera oogling female characters. Just as hardly any games do the foot fetish thing. It doesn't have to stop you.
But it would be nice if more games didn't try to fetishize breasts, for those of us that aren't really into that.
Why do video games even need to appeal to "fetishes" anyway? Why do they need to fulfill people's desires to see T&A? I don't go into a game anticipating lingering close-ups of eyes, or expecting to hear Irish women reciting Yeats poetry!
There's a time and a place for self-indulgence, and it shouldn't be at the expense of making other people uncomfortable.
There's a time and a place for self-indulgence, and it shouldn't be at the expense of making other people uncomfortable.
It really is amusing that people are trying to go the "AMERICANS ARE SEXUALLY REPRESSED" route when people criticize sexualized depictions of women in Japanese media; 52% of Japanese people polled do not agree with the idea of same-sex marriage being legal, 40.8% of Japanese marriages are described as "sexless", and only 24% of Japanese people (compared to 44% as a worldwide average) are content with their sex lives. Just because a lot of modern Japanese creators are more concerned with how sexually appealing a girl looks in their work doesn't mean it reflects the society as a whole, nor does it examine why such depictions are so popular in the first place. It's certainly not because Japanese culture allows for freedom of sexual expression by the individual outside of such "behind closed doors" settings as, well, fictitious media.
Like I even seem to remember a woman who got arrested for obscenity just because she modeled a kayak after a vagina. That... doesn't seem like a sexually free society to me. I dunno. Maybe I shouldn't be talking though, because to a certain extent America certainly is sexually repressed. Just... not as much as Japan I'd say. Feel free to correct me though.
Like I even seem to remember a woman who got arrested for obscenity just because she modeled a kayak after a vagina. That... doesn't seem like a sexually free society to me. I dunno. Maybe I shouldn't be talking though, because to a certain extent America certainly is sexually repressed. Just... not as much as Japan I'd say. Feel free to correct me though.
On a related note, has anyone here played the Sega CD game, Space Adventure: Cobra?
I've been played it over the last while, it probably has some of the worst representation & objectification I've ever seen. It feels somewhat like a parody of this kinda stuff, it's really hard to tell though because the game does not seem critical at all of what's going on.
The plot has you tasked with finding a solar system map somewhere out in the galaxy. You play as a far creepier Han Solo archetype. It turns out the last guy who possessed this map, tattooed it on his three daughters, so you gotta track them down and unclothe all of them. I'm pretty sure it was said that their tattoos only appear when they are "excited" or something too.
It honestly sounds like a porno, but it's a very real game. It got reviewed by gaming mags at the time and seems to be based on a manga/anime. I'm curious whether the subject matter was way more tasteful or clearly played as a parody in the source material.
I've been played it over the last while, it probably has some of the worst representation & objectification I've ever seen. It feels somewhat like a parody of this kinda stuff, it's really hard to tell though because the game does not seem critical at all of what's going on.
The plot has you tasked with finding a solar system map somewhere out in the galaxy. You play as a far creepier Han Solo archetype. It turns out the last guy who possessed this map, tattooed it on his three daughters, so you gotta track them down and unclothe all of them. I'm pretty sure it was said that their tattoos only appear when they are "excited" or something too.
It honestly sounds like a porno, but it's a very real game. It got reviewed by gaming mags at the time and seems to be based on a manga/anime. I'm curious whether the subject matter was way more tasteful or clearly played as a parody in the source material.
See, that's the entire fallacy with those arguments, alongside some other stuff (Such as how I still brought up the fact that the Japanese government mandates censorship of their porn at a company level, which I'm pretty certain isn't the case anywhere else in Europe or North America).
Japan isn't a free society when it comes to treatment of women, or sexual minorities as a matter of fact. It definitely isn't with regards to sexual freedom. So why do people continue to cape for Japan as this sort of glorious land where 'censorship of the artist' (which in this thread is pretty much 'I want my loli anime titties to stay!') isn't a thing? And at the same time, why can't they realize that most Japanese developers have a hard time even coming close to presenting a somewhat fare and balanced representation of sexualization in women? Bayonetta is the only one I can think of, and even in the last ten or so pages, we've had debates where characters like 2B and Ann Takamaki were singled out for continuing to perpetuate bad aspects, even if they are made with good intentions? (Though I think we can safely say in the case of Ann, there's no good intentions. None. Definitely not within her story arc, which comes pack and parcel with her character design.)
Game developers have a responsibility to own what they put into their games.
Just like every other type of artist needs to own their art.
If you're asking why other art isn't being discussed in this very thread, that's because it's off topic for this thread. If you feel that a thread about sexism in music would benefit the forum, make one on the etcetera board.
Yup. She was convicted and fined.
This Guardian article has a lot more about it if anyone wants to read: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/09/japanese-vagina-kayak-artist-found-guilty-of-obscenity
Megumi Igarashi, the artist, has blogged about it. (some of the illustrations may be NSFW)
Megumi Igarashi said:
The best female designs are the ones that are mostly clothed. Overwatch females. Alpha Chun. Zelda, Peach, Aloy, Ellie etc.
To me, it seems like it's because to a lot of people "Japan" is just anime/manga, video games, and the portion of otaku culture that is projected outwards, all of which have gotten way into this sort of sexualized, pandering nonsense in order to reach their niche audience.
That's exactly it. Like, at what point do you simply look at things from a more balanced perspective? I mean, people don't think of Canada seriously as a place of endless forests, cold, moose and Tim Hortons, so why don't you do the same thing to Japan? Instead, most people, men and women, treat it as almost like Mecca for nerds.
Member was warned for disingenuous posting
According to this study there is no link between videogame consumption and sexist attitudes in gamers.
As a matter of fact video games don't need to appeal to anything or anyone. If some games cater to people who want to see T&A it's because they're obviously in demand.
Well, who says video games can't be the place for self-indulgence? If somehow everyone was required to play video games I would agree with you, but that's not the case. At the end of the day no one is forced to play anything.
Another thing to say about the "art" argument and why other mediums don't get the same flak games do, is because art, specifically classical styles of art like paintings, sculpture and writing have had centuries to develop and be analyzed and traded over many different cultures and styles and schools of thought, with near-limitless amount of reading you could do, critically analyzing them.
I've watched the anime (though, not all of it), and yeah it's basically just Conan the Barbarian in space.
Maybe that's being unfair to Conan. I only really know it from the Arnold movies...
(I confess I enjoy a lot of what Cobra does, but it's definitely repulsive when it comes to women.)
<.<
Um. You sure we don't?
XD
What should women do if they want games with non-sexualized female characters in them?
Does it really matter that they are clothed if they are just wearing skintight spandex anyway?
Point one: I generally have a lot more faith in people, especially Americans, from other lands to not believe that seriously.
Point two: evidently, just stop gaming considering some of the greatest hits responses in this thread. Use your wallet, amirite?
It's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and over the top. Buichi Terasawa (the author) is also a notorious assman to the point where people like me, who haven't read one of his series, know of his reputation. Believe it or not, Cobra was actually praised for depicting women with a realistic physique in its heyday.
Wow, really? That's... somethin'. Between his robot lady girlfriend, Lady, and the only other woman I distinctly remember, Archaeologist Wearing Almost No Clothes, I'm fairly surprised.
Make yourself heard. Support games that don't feature them. Show developers there is an audience for such games.
Honestly, I see the camera as an autonomous entity as well, albeit one represented by the themes rather than the characters while simultaneously being an extension of said characters. Bayonetta is "in" on the camera's intentions, almost as if she was the invisible hand guiding it with her witch powers.
Of course less exuberant examples exist as well as is the case with Yoko Taro characters or the example I gave earlier from the objective design thread. It doesn't necessarily represent their will like I'd argue it does with Bayonetta, but it does represent the themes that character embodies.
Canada is much closer and easier to comprehend to the average westerner if for no other reason than exposure. Japan's exports are really the only exposure a lot of people have.
Edit: You know, I don't even know if I agree with that at all. You hear Canada stereotypes all the time, whether it be about how they pronounce the word "about" or "sorry" or just stuff like how they have good syrup.
Hey guys, what did I mi--
That particular era had an common trend of lech protagonists and Cobra is very much in line with the norm. I wouldn't say that it's supposed to be an actively critical parody, but it fits in with the often pretty messed up attempts at tongue-in-cheek humor that were common during the time period and is a perfect indication of the kind of development culture and trends in writing that were prevalent at the time, even though it itself is an adaptation and not an original work.
They're problematic as all hell, but I do think they're an extremely interesting cultural artifact, and relics of both a genre of game and trends in storytelling that have become increasingly rare over time. Mechanically, they've been overtaken by stuff that either has MORE gameplay (Danganronpa, for instance), or significantly less (Most things we call Visual Novels in the west). Narratively there's been a notable preference for more innocent protagonists who find themselves "accidentally" complicit in the same behaviors when they do pop up (instead of engaging gleefully) or simply don't wind up doing those things at all. Depends on how trashy the writer wants to be, of course.
The history of Japanese adventure games, visual novels, and dating sims is an extremely complicated one that I'm not enough of an expert in to go into with extreme detail, but suffice it to say that sexual and outright pornographic content have never been very far removed from them.
That particular era had an common trend of lech protagonists and Cobra is very much in line with the norm. I wouldn't say that it's supposed to be an actively critical parody, but it fits in with the often pretty messed up attempts at tongue-in-cheek humor that were common during the time period and is a perfect indication of the kind of development culture and trends in writing that were prevalent at the time, even though it itself is an adaptation and not an original work.
They're problematic as all hell, but I do think they're an extremely interesting cultural artifact, and relics of both a genre of game and trends in storytelling that have become increasingly rare over time. Mechanically, they've been overtaken by stuff that either has MORE gameplay (Danganronpa, for instance), or significantly less (Most things we call Visual Novels in the west). Narratively there's been a notable preference for more innocent protagonists who find themselves "accidentally" complicit in the same behaviors when they do pop up (instead of engaging gleefully) or simply don't wind up doing those things at all. Depends on how trashy the writer wants to be, of course.
This reminds me of the much less severe debacle about Watch Dogs 2 when it came out, where we were all reminded that a penis is perfectly fine as long as it's not erect but vaginas are apparently always vulgar. It's interesting that the distinction is the same across so many cultures, considering it's the thing that most of us came out of and slightly over half the population has one just sort of existing and not hurting anybody 24/7.
This is a very good point. Games are a fledgling medium, and it takes a long time for meaningful criticism and the canon of design to really rev up. It's not a baby anymore for those of us looking back on decades of history dating past most of our births now, but in context of human civilization it's practically prenatal.
I've always assumed it as an extension of the escapist fantasies that drive them to things like video games in the first place: they see Japan as a place that would "accept" them, a place where they can be themselves and be open about their interests without fear of recrimination or bullying.
In turn, they adopt and normalise Japanese cultural values - including (though perhaps not consciously) its views on women.
The hilarious thing is, chances are, Japanese people would probably laugh them out of the building.
Purely from a nerd culture stand point it absolutely is. Akihabara, well and alive arcade scene, manga and games being far more part of mainstream culture, irl places people know from games and anime etc.
Shinzo Abe came out of a freaking Mario tube at the Olympics.
I think in this case "realistic" doesn't mean "average" or what you would expect from a space action girl, just something close to a body type that exists IRL.
At the same time though, otaku in the West like to paint Japan as a whole as that. It isn't. Especially in regards to the actual point of this thread, and that's sexualization of women in games.
So basically, you support this thread?
Your earlier post seemed rather dismissive of content in this thread so I'm having a little trouble following your argument as a whole.
I really came away with the imporession that you were telling women video games aren't for them.
Yup. Japan feels like this crazy, weird and wacky country that's big on anime girls because that's how the internet makes it looks like. Otaku culture is minuscule compare to the rest of the country's culture. It absulutely does not represent japan as a whole.
In fact, the concept that art shouldn't be criticized is an incredibly modern idea. Post-modern, to be specific.
I don't agree with everything that's being said here, but I have nothing against developers making games with a female audience in mind or women speaking their mind, if that's what you're asking
If I gave off that impression I apologize, that wasn't my intention at all. Basically my point is that not everything needs to cater to everyone.
Have you read that study? That's not really what it says.
This study found that video game exposure is significantly related to sexism. This study also found that exposure to sex-stereotyped video game characters increased tolerance of sexual harassment and rape myth acceptance.
That said, no one is making the argument that sexual objectification is exclusive to games, or that sexist attitudes are exclusive to gamers. It's just the subject that this particular thread is focused on.
Yes. Because he (and the tourism department that convinced him to do it) knows that'll get people interested to travel to Japan, especially around the time of the Olympics. It's not meant to be representative of their culture as a whole, it was supposed to be an advertisement for foreigners to come spend money. So many Japanese already feel that foreigners will never and can never understand their culture. So they peddle the bits of pop culture that they know will sell. So, not a very good example of Japan's nerd culture being a big part of Japanese culture as a whole. It's not. It's a humongous part of Japanese cultural export, certainly, that I won't deny. But on the whole, anime doesn't really factor into the public consciousness of Japan any more than American cartoons do in America (save they're not seen as exclusively for kids), nor do video games any more than any other developed nation. Admittedly manga does have a bit more mainstream appeal than western graphic novels and comics in the West, but there's just such a wide variety that it's hardly considered "nerd culture", but just another form of publication, like books or magazines. Like, there are manga on specifically learning how to cook or how to play golf, as opposed to having cooking or golfing being the backdrop for a story.
Anyway, to steer things back on topic a bit-- going off of the idea that nerd culture in a whole in Japan is not much bigger than in the West, in turn, the kind of games and such that design with the sex-pandery otaku crowd in mind are not the kind of thing that's even relevant to many Japanese not invested in nerd culture in general. So, naturally, unless it's brought to their attention (like the ama-diving mascot the actual ama divers and their families protested to), those not interested in anime or nerdier manga or video games aren't even going to be seeing these sexual depictions and can't react to them.
I apologize if any of my wording seems off. I have a message I'm trying to convey but I'm not sure if it's coming off correctly. Gosh darn it.
On the contrary I think it was perfectly articulate and very well thought out! There's nothing wrong with resonating with nerd culture, we're posting on a video game enthusiast message board after all. Anime and japanese video games are totally rad. It's just important to remember that a country's nerd culture isn't fully synonymous or indicative of the beliefs of the majority of its populace when it comes to trying to understand those cultures. That it's such a lucrative export and gets played up so much in this case doesn't help with getting that across, of course.
Ahhhh, haha, that I could actually see. They aren't egregiously out of proportion, from what I remember.
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