Well....why not?
Would you find the game less pleasant if developers did that? Would it harm your experience?
Why do some people get very defensive when discussing social aspects of games?
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Would you find the game less pleasant if developers did that? Would it harm your experience?
User banned for continuing to derail thread and argue in bad faith after being warned
Have you ever stopped to think why the superbowl ad times are so expensive?
It is because LOTS of people will see that advertisement and it will put ideas on their heads. And it really works, otherwise it would not be that expensive.
And that is for something that is not even 5 minutes.
Now think about watching an ad that lasts for 30 hours.
Games have incredible power of shaping one's view of the world...specially because it is very easy to be immersive... like how many times you said "oh I died" and not "oh mario died" or "oh kratos died". Games are basically brainwashing machines. They shape society and society shape culture.
It is important
what's political about persona 5? except for that one politician. and that other politician. and...oh ok
I've been playin Skyrim on my Switch, as I've been replying to y'all's comments. My enjoyment has not been hurt at all :)
The user was warned for this post. 'Whataboutisms' are the tools of those who don't like arguing in good faith. A bigger problem existing doesn't invalidate the discussion of smaller ones.
Messaging boards are always known for being a hub for outrage and protesting.
My opinion of it is there are women in the world who get murdered for wanting an education, or sometimes worse. Yet on messaging boards, we see people getting offended over what a fictional character wears.
Kind of summarises the situation really.
My opinion of it is there are women in the world who get murdered for wanting an education, or sometimes worse. Yet on messaging boards, we see people getting offended over what a fictional character wears.
Kind of summarises the situation really.
I'm glad you could inure yourself to the racism you experienced.
But, surely it would be better if you didn't have to experience it in the first place? What if your cousin (random example, dunno if you have one XD) couldn't get past the hurt feelings part and then quit playing games? Would that bring your empathy into play?
May I ask, how long have you been playing games?
How long have you been participating in message boards, specifically?
Anyway, here's an example.
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 devs have been releasing art of rare blades for the upcoming game. Many people have found the art to be overly sexualized for female-designed blades in comparison to male-designed blades. Tell me about that example, it's nice and current.
I feel like a lot of those people are the same type who like to say, "I just wanna play/talk about videogames, man". Like they think the conversation is too much within the context of gaming.
You''re so right. It DOES summarize the situation.
Even where women don't get murdered for wanting education, they don't get treated with equal respect as men in either the real world or in fiction.
So people should never complain about anything unless its on par with murder?
Yes it would because I can relate to them and understand what they're going through. Honestly, I'm not going to give empathy to random people on the internet with issues they have unless it truly effects me.
Side Note: You guys are just like my parents and grandparents. I feel like people are always on the look out for racism or whatever–which is understandable after all they had to go through–however it really isn't as big with younger generations. Yes in some places it is way worse than others.
We are on a video games board talking about issues that women and minorities may face in video games.
One thing being a big problem doesn't mean the other isn't too.
Currently, in the country my parents were born in and a country where I visit on a biyearly basis, entire villages of Muslims are being gunned down by helicopter gunships from its own military because they are refugees fleeing from the Middle East (yes, I'm from Myanmar, lovely to see how we're always on the news for horrible things). Surprisingly, I am simultaneously capable of campaigning for both their right of existence and able to call out misogyny in fictional characters. My empathy is surprisingly deep, given how according to this thread it's apparently supposed to be a finite resource.
Some perspective would not go a miss. If you care about womens rights, focus more on situations where women are sold as sex slaves or raped and killed for wanting education.
For me it's priorities. There are other more serious matters afoot then a character in a video game wearing some clothes
Ignoring your blatant whataboutism, there is the fact that media is ineherntly a reflection of society at large, if media still portraits elements of society, be it a gender, a sexuality or a race, in an unfair or unequal manner, that's a reflection of a very real society where equality doesn't exist, furthermore the constant portrayal of said lack equality in media creates the normalization of it, which impact people.
So sure, there are places worse than western countries, so? Does that means we should stop progress? Does that means we shouldn't aim to be better? I think it says a lot that "we're supposed to be better" yet we don't have full blown equality yet.
There's a good number of people who don't pick up on things like subtext and social commentary, even when it's really blatant, like the political stuff in P5. Ironically, they often believe themselves to be far more intelligent than they actually are. Dunning-kruger ahoy!
Some of us ARE capable of focusing on 2 things at once. Why is your priority to shut down the conversation on this? What are you doing for those women that are being sold as sex slaves?
Why do you have to limit your sense of empathy to family and close friends? Why restrict your normal human empathy to a small circle?
I agree with this. Look at that witcher post a few days ago claiming there was no black people in it and they wanted to know why. So people got defensive over it and that whole thread could have been avoided if 10 minutes of research was done before hand.
Also judging by this thread people have set ideas about what warrants criticism.
Since they often aren't part of a minority group they just don't think it is valid and say "suck it up".
Since they often aren't part of a minority group they just don't think it is valid and say "suck it up".
Racism, regardless if it's banal or not, is still racism. Call a spade a spade. You seem to be implying that it hurts the people who get called out, when they haven't been the ones who have endured discriminatory practices for generations.
I come from a country that kills people who think different and defend human rights (Colombia), and in your case about women, every 3 days a woman gets killed by her actual or former boyfriend. I criticize both my country/government for its handling of issues and this kind of practices in gaming. I will never understand this kind of complaint. And you know why? Many of the people who hold these terrible views on women actually play videogames, and could have their views changed with better representation in gaming.
XD
I appreciate a good sarcasm.
That's fair. It's very difficult for any human to feel empathy across the whole world. Part of it seems to be a difficulty connecting with the realness of something so far away. This can be seen in discussions surrounding natural disasters. Like, americans could be seen to care more about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina than the aftermath of the tsunami in asia, because it hits closer to home for them. And that's despite a huge difference in actual level of damage and death.
But, surely you would not want to cause anyone's feelings to be hurt while they discuss an issue, yes? After all, you experienced hurt feelings from online statements. And you would not want to cause that in someone else, even though it's realistically hard to remember that one is speaking to real people when one can't see them? So given that, it would make sense to refrain from making statements about other people, say, wasting their time. Or say, that an issue isn't important. Or anything like those. Am I making sense?
Not to derail this too far, but it's weird to see someone basing their account name + avatar on a show that's very much about empathy and that provides some amount of representation for queer kids, and not get how these things might matter in other media.
Ehhhh if I'm going to worry about any devs, it's the marginalized ones who have to deal with much harsher direct criticism/anger (which I'm not saying isn't justified at times, but still) if they do anything slightly messy while big privileged devs might get a small amount of criticism they don't ever have to even look at for doing worse things.
Which is to say I'm all for our standards for big games not doing gross/insulting/whatever nonsense being much higher than they have been in the past. It might seem like a rapid change but I think that's due to the internet providing an accessible way for people to learn about things they didn't know previously. Games have to keep up with that just like everything else does.
The person didn't just want to know why. He was basically attacking the game and called it disgusting for not having a black guy in it, when like you said, 5 minutes of research and you would go "Oh that make sense"
I think a lot of people just aren't equipped to produce subtle thoughts with regards to issues like these, and just end up being dangerous. Especially when they are riding the wave of some moral movement.
Yes, misogyny, racism, etc, is terrible. But what happens is that people love to be righteous, and get carried away. To the point, for example, of criticizing a Polish company for not incorporating races that the general Polish culture has little to no experience with for the sake of catering to the (relatively newfound) ideals of an entirely different country.
People who do this are both unable to differentiate what is reasonable and unreasonable about the topic, and I think are generally the type of people who are eager just to shit over someone just for the sake of feeling better about themselves.
I believe that this is exactly why neogaf imploded the way it did. It got so far up its own ass that when the first few cracks started showing up in what was an entirely unsustainable sense of community righteousness, it had no choice but to crucify itself.
And history has shown again and again that people who aren't equipped to form a careful opinion about something but tag along in an otherwise positive movement are dangerous. That's why I am always weary of these discussions.
Yes, misogyny, racism, etc, is terrible. But what happens is that people love to be righteous, and get carried away. To the point, for example, of criticizing a Polish company for not incorporating races that the general Polish culture has little to no experience with for the sake of catering to the (relatively newfound) ideals of an entirely different country.
People who do this are both unable to differentiate what is reasonable and unreasonable about the topic, and I think are generally the type of people who are eager just to shit over someone just for the sake of feeling better about themselves.
I believe that this is exactly why neogaf imploded the way it did. It got so far up its own ass that when the first few cracks started showing up in what was an entirely unsustainable sense of community righteousness, it had no choice but to crucify itself.
And history has shown again and again that people who aren't equipped to form a careful opinion about something but tag along in an otherwise positive movement are dangerous. That's why I am always weary of these discussions.
I really hope you never complain about anything less worst than murder.
...like a woman who happens to have some hipster racism but never raised a hand to anyone ;D
I'd imagine that it's a combination of overly identifying with a product and a lack of empathy. So what people are doing is treating their game/product/company like a sports team to the extent that any criticism of the team is akin to a criticism of themselves. In a way, it's even worse than sports because fans criticize aspects of their favorite team all the time, but you can still see the similarity when it comes to mascot controversies and the like.
It's good to discuss those things, and that door swings both ways: just as it sucks to be shut down, it also sucks to be told to feel a certain way. I think backlash can come as a response from many different angles... one of which is that there is a subset that sees games as an escape from reality, a way to unwind, a way to get away from the stress of our world. I tend to be in that camp, even though I stay cognizant of the issues as well. I'll raise an eyebrow wondering why certain designs are the way they are (like in XBC2, Dragon's Crown, or EO4, etc.), why the Persona teams thinks it's OK to make fun of certain types of people, etc., but I find that my energies are better spent on larger issues. Again, not that these things aren't important, but their impact relative to other things in my life and this world are pretty minor.
Raising awareness, The war for women' rights, is about Informing as many as possible. It's more important to focus on the more serious issues then again, what a fictional character wears.
Obviously nothing is more important to Hindle than spending time on a videogame message board, reminding people that there are more serious issues out there.
Otherwise, he wouldn't be here, he would be out there, tackling real problems that concern him.
Neogaf imploded SORELY because the admin was found to be a harasser, and no one wanted to stay in a place ruled by a harasser.
That Resetera exists, it's a triumph of Neogaf as a community. Because Neogaf wasn't one person, or a name, it was it's community. And we all stick together and formed this new place.
Now that you mention this, you reminded me when women during WW1 advocated for a pacifist approach to the conflict in the USA, and used this platform to fight for their suffrage right. I bet that many people said then that they shouldn't focus on that issue, since it wasn't as important.
There's always going to be something more important to these naysayers.
So if all you do is raise awareness, what's stopping you from raising awareness about 2 things at once? Why can't there be multiple avenues that need awareness for women's rights?
playing games for 26 years, on message boards for 18 years. in regards to the xeno question, i just looked up all the blades on google, and i'd say there's one sexualized male blade and two sexualized female blades, not a big deal (not to mention there are less male blades, with one being a bird). with that being said, i'd say even if there were more, it's not a big deal. people are so afraid of sexuality that it's mind-blowing. i think women embrace the designs more than men do.
You, right now as you type in this thread, are not raising awareness about the war for women's rights. Because this is one's downtime. Maybe one spends one's downtime from raising awareness in major issues...to raise awareness on minor issues that are still important to that person. And, unless you spend every willing second of your life dedicated to raising awareness, you have no business coming in here and trying to shame us for talking about sexism in an entertainment medium on a website about said medium.
Because if you mention video games in the same topic, as the things I mentioned, you will make the whole movement look a joke.
Not really, talking about negative representation of women in the media is perfectly valid. I don't see how it makes it look like a joke at all.
I'm not trying to shame anybody. Just providing points as to why one side of women's rights gets more exposure then the topic of this thread.
It didn't happen because he was found to be a harasser. It happened because he was accused of it.
You're projecting your problems with videogames as a serious medium (and the biggest medium there is in terms of money as well) to other people. Many people, specially people inside the industry, take this thing seriously and actually like to read essays and criticisms like Female Frequency and others. Take Neal Druckmann for instance. He watched Feminist Frequency videos and shaped characters in Uncharted 4 according to what he saw. Is that a joke to you?
Don't forget other evidence of his inappropriate behavior, plus lying about why mods were quitting, plus waiting a long ass time to address all of this shit. Your statement is kind of irrelevant when considering these other things.
Sometimes people just come in accusing other people on a moral hign ground. This is not the right way to start a meaningful conversation.
Maybe we can talk in calm and peace when people say "should The Witcher 3 include black people?" instead of "The Witcher is gross for not having black people".
Maybe we can talk in calm and peace when people say "should The Witcher 3 include black people?" instead of "The Witcher is gross for not having black people".
Oh are you fucking serious, you are making the movement you are supposedly for a joke. What the hell have you done? Have you gone to third world countries like my sister and I have to care for the poor and sick? Have you argued with a government whose idea of debate is to murder entire villages in order to save them? Who the hell are you to come in here acting all high and mighty like you are the beacon of women's rights? I do the best I can and I never mention it before because it is not my place to say but you apparently are so important that you have the authority to tell us they we make the movement look bad?
Maybe to ignorant people.
Representation in the media influences society. It's a worthwhile conversation, much more so than lootboxes etc.
Talking about myself here, but when I'm in a video game forum I like to stick to discussions about the games and technology.
I don't like mixing things up too much and I feel that social discussions usually derail too much from that.
There are better places on the internet to discuss those aspects IMO.
I don't like mixing things up too much and I feel that social discussions usually derail too much from that.
There are better places on the internet to discuss those aspects IMO.
There is no winning (or even escaping) once you accept the premise of "everything is political" in an argument about the things you like.
Taking strong moral stances on everything is in vogue like it's the 1950s again (albeit with a different bent). Thus you can't really say "I hear y'all and get what you are saying, but I value my pleasure of ogling 2B's ass higher than alleviating the discomfort of a few women who found this depiction problematic or whatever" without being instantly "called out" by someone rather high-and-mighty.
So a much easier and more effective strategy is to feign ignorance and regurgitate the tired "there is no politics in my games" refrain in bad faith. Or avoid this sort of discussion altogether if you happen to disagree with the majority opinion.
Taking strong moral stances on everything is in vogue like it's the 1950s again (albeit with a different bent). Thus you can't really say "I hear y'all and get what you are saying, but I value my pleasure of ogling 2B's ass higher than alleviating the discomfort of a few women who found this depiction problematic or whatever" without being instantly "called out" by someone rather high-and-mighty.
So a much easier and more effective strategy is to feign ignorance and regurgitate the tired "there is no politics in my games" refrain in bad faith. Or avoid this sort of discussion altogether if you happen to disagree with the majority opinion.
It's okay. But if it were about the bigger picture I could call everything irrelevant, except efforts from companies and governments to colonize and expand humanity to other planets. You see the problem with this, right?