Why do some people get very defensive when discussing social aspects of games?

[spam musubi]

We've seen this time and time again on other forums, the previous forum or even here. Whenever there's a thread questioning some social aspect of a game, like a female character's revealing design, the racial make-up of a game or its thematic implications, there seems to be an immediate backlash. People respond with drive by remarks like "not this shit again" or "why does everything have to be racist" and then there is a slew of posts who seem quite defensive about the game and seemingly trying to protect it from the social lens of conversation. Even though most social inquiries like this aren't generally directly implicating the games of being racist or sexist, but simply questioning the positioning of the game in today's culture and its themes, it seems like some people do not want to have any conversation regarding this whatsoever. More so, any such questioning is generally immediately characterized as "outrage" even though people usually are pretty calm in expressing their questioning.

I've asked this before in individual threads and I don't seem to be able to get a good answer. So maybe a thread about this will be more revealing. What about these conversations seems so upsetting? Why do people feel so defensive? Why is discussion about this subject particularly challenging? When minorities or women feel like they are marginalized by an aspect of a game, or when people feel uncomfortable with a depiction, why is that feeling or discussion of it not valid to you?

Edit: an important distinction that came up is the difference between uncomfortable with the subject versus the tone of the conversation surrounding it. The latter is understandable, and is a matter of moderation and discussion. But many seem uncomfortable with the former as well. That's what I'm inquiring about.

 

[Deleted member 8001]

Because in all honesty some people are very ignorant to these issues and how they impact others. Another thing is when something is the accepted norm for a long time people come to think everything is fine when it isn't.

 

[Ferrs]

Lack of empathy.

 

[KillLaCam]

People are probably just tired of hearing about whatever the issue is.
But some other ppl actually just dont care

 

[Renna Hazel]

Personally, I think it's possible to do more harm than good when everything becomes a social issue. Calling everything racist or sexist will hurt progress in my opinion, even if it's true.

 

[Yossarian]

NO, YOU ARE!

 

[Trace]

I think the idea behind it is "I like X thing, stop trying to ruin this for me" where X can be racism, scantily clad women, whatever. It's not exactly a deep introspective on the state of the game or problems within it, but a kneejerk reaction that they're fine with how things are and don't want someone else coming in "fucking it up".

 

[astro]

We just want to talk about....

Can we keep politics out of...

Videogames.

 

[spam musubi]

Personally, I think it's possible to do more harm than good when everything becomes a social issue. Calling everything racist or sexist will hurt progress in my opinion, even if it's true.

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How? Also framing the conversation as "calling everything racist/sexist" seems disingenuous.

 

[Mattakuevan]

Its probably because for a lot of people video games are an escape from the issues of real life.

When you start bringing real-world issues into discussion regarding the design of a game some people get overly defensive because they just want to enjoy games for what they are without bringing real world bullshit into it.

 

[ShyMel]

Because some people take others critiquing a game they enjoy as having race/sex issues as an attack on themselves.

 

[sredgrin]

Because they view everything as an attack, no matter the topic. Sexism is bad so if this titty warrior design is sexist the game I like is sexist and I AM SEXIST AND I AM NOT SEXIST!

 

[Red]

Personally, I think it's possible to do more harm than good when everything becomes a social issue. Calling everything racist or sexist will hurt progress in my opinion, even if it's true.

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????

 

[Platy]

People think we are calling them racist or sexist for enjoying the stuff, which most of the time is not true at all
So they take it personally

 

[Ferrs]

Personally, I think it's possible to do more harm than good when everything becomes a social issue. Calling everything racist or sexist will hurt progress in my opinion, even if it's true.

Click to shrink...

If something is racist or sexist it needs to be pointed. There's no progress possible if it's done excusing these two issues.

 

[Noctis]

I think some play the game and don't deeply analyze or care what's going on that doesn't make them bad people. However, others like to go into the intricacies that a game provides such as : social issues, how it relates to them, etc.

Both sides ultimately clash and that's about it imo.

 

[CrusoeCMYK]

People are probably just tired of hearing about whatever the issue is.
But some other ppl actually just dont care

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I'd argue they do if they take the time to proclaim that they don't.

 

[Civilstrife]

Lack of empathy.

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This is it. If I don't have problem with this, nobody should.

 

[Startropper]

To much generalization here. Where are these posters? Be more specific. What was the context of the topic?

This is to much broad hand waving.

 

[Xaszatm]

Personally, I think it's possible to do more harm than good when everything becomes a social issue. Calling everything racist or sexist will hurt progress in my opinion, even if it's true.

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...everything is a social issue, whether you want it to be or not.

 

[spam musubi]

Its probably because for a lot of people video games are an escape from the issues of real life.

When you start bringing real-world issues into discussion regarding the design of a game some people get overly defensive because they just want to enjoy games for what they are without bringing real world bullshit into it.

Click to shrink...

While it is true that games can be escapism, they also have a real impact on people as a whole like other media, thus they can do things like normalizing certain viewpoints.

To much generalization here. Where are these posters? Be more specific. What was the context of the topic?

This is to much broad hand waving.

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I don't feel comfortable singling out individual posters but if you don't feel like this is a trend that is happening then there isn't much this thread can do for you probably. Others seem to have an idea of what's going on.

 

[Deleted member 7450]

Because people think games exists on a vacuum.
They are mere entertainment, "for fun" they say.

You share a hobby with people that have yet to grow up. Afraid of change. Yet to realize that we can't keep politics out of gaming. (though, I have my issues with how some of it is addressed but that is besides the point)

 

[MechanicalWall]

Because most of the users here and in the gaming community in general are sheltered suburban white men that these issues hardly affect. Lootboxes in their electronic Star Wars and Lord of the Rings toys is the worst nonpersonal oppression they've apparently encountered.

Because people think games exists on a vacuum.
They are mere entertainment, "for fun" they say.

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Also this. They can't conceive of how and why we keep seeing the same problems pop up over and over.

 

[Laiza]

Its probably because for a lot of people video games are an escape from the issues of real life.

When you start bringing real-world issues into discussion regarding the design of a game some people get overly defensive because they just want to enjoy games for what they are without bringing real world bullshit into it.

Click to shrink...

Of course this implies that racial and sexual minorities who are pulled out of their escapism by racist and sexist aspects showing up in games don't count because...??

 

[Alby_Duckett]

Beyond just a lack of ignorance or empathy, I think it also is that even people that are aware of an issue with a game, but still really enjoy it, feel as though they are being called a bad person just because they like something that has problematic content in it.

I don't feel that way though. Sometimes I get irked if something I like is constantly getting called out as problematic, but I also don't define myself by the media I consume so I just agree with the criticisms and hope that if one day I'm able to create projects, I won't have the same issues in my stuff.

 

[Platy]

Its probably because for a lot of people video games are an escape from the issues of real life.

When you start bringing real-world issues into discussion regarding the design of a game some people get overly defensive because they just want to enjoy games for what they are without bringing real world bullshit into it.

Click to shrink...

People saying it is real world bullshit is also part of the problem.

And this defense say people prefer a reality where there are no black people and women are mostly sex objects. This is not a very good defense =P

 

[Mattakuevan]

While it is true that games can be escapism, they also have a real impact on people as a whole like other media, thus they can do things like normalizing certain viewpoints.

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Yes I know, I didnt say I agreed with that reasoning. Escapism is just the main example Ive seen floating around on other sites.

 

[Valkyr1983]

In topics on representation I don't get defensive about criticism even though I might like the things being criticized, I think everything has the right to be criticized

I might get defensive once people start going down the road of "I don't feel like Quiet should exist" or "I think all the female character designs in street fighter 5 should be changed" because why wouldn't I?

I like those things, and that's just as valid as someone NOT liking those things

Basically if the conversation is "female representation of too skewed one way, we need more diversity and additions of positive female role models" then I'm fully on board

Removal or prevention of things some of us like in games, and that's when I'm not on board

 

[Angel DvA]

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

 

[Red]

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

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Yes O wise one

"Fake outrage" used to dismiss long running systemic social issues is a timeless trick.

 

[spam musubi]

In topics on representation I don't get defensive about criticism even though I might like the things being criticized, I think everything has the right to be criticized

I might get defensive once people start going down the road of "I don't feel like Quiet should exist" or "I think all the female character designs in street fighter 5 should be changed" because why wouldn't I?

I like those things, and that's just as valid as someone NOT liking those things

Basically if the conversation is "female representation of too skewed one way, we need more diversity and additions of positive female role models" then I'm fully on board

Removal or prevention of things some of us like in games, and that's when I'm not on board

Click to shrink...

I think that's a fair viewpoint to have, but do you think there's a line? Like, can a particular game go too far where you'd not be ok with it? Something like Hatred or even a more extreme example like Rapelay?

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

Click to shrink...

What type of reaction would you consider to be an overreaction? Why do you think there is "outrage" and that it is "fake"? Why does it bother you so much when you can just not engage with it?

 

[Beef Stallmer]

Imagine reading an article:
"Why Porsche on set at MS E3 is disgusting"
And then it goes into detail how Porsche was the favorite brand of Hitler and how Porsche made trains that Germany used to deport people and how Volkswagen owns Porsche and VW is destroying the environment and that people who buy the Porsche DLC are supporting fascism.

While this of course is purely hypothetical and might seem redicilous; Porsche probably has a lot more in common with Hitler than 30s cartoons have in common with racism.

People can, and will find faults in anything which IMO opinion is a shame because it detracts from real issues. Nowadays if something comes up, indeed a lot of people go: "not this shit again"
So they won't even listen if real issues come up.

Of course it's not my call to say what should be a real discussion and what not, but sometimes the criticism seems really reaching.

 

[Noctis]

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

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True, I do think at times certain things are blown out of proportion though. There's valid discussions to be had but sometimes I just look at a complaint and be like "what? Smh lol"

 

[Ferrs]

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

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how do you know what is a fake outrage and what is a real issue for some?

It's so easy to say this is just "outrage" when we are never the target of it.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Something I've noticed is that there are some users who, as soon as they come to a thread, like to label people as pedophiles just to get a reaction. It was pretty common in the old site and you can see their names (and in some cases avatars) and you know it's the same people now doing that here. Sometimes the only thing they need to add a label to you is your avatar.

Obviously, when you know that's the only discussion you are going to get, whole threads become worthless and people get very defensive when they see the criticism coming. Even if you could agree with the criticism, the attitude of certain people makes you think "not this shit again".

 

[Filament Star]

People get tired of other people telling them (or implying) that they're racist/sexist/whatever for liking a thing when they know they're not.

 

[MoonFrog]

The conversations often become largely polemical with people being "it is the devil, purge it!" or "there is nothing to see here. Shut up!" with people (including original posters at times--it often is the dialogue decays as the thread goes on, although the descent may be rapid :P) some times trying to have a nuanced conversation but getting lost in the circus.

This very dynamic encourages people to do what you're describing. If acknowledging something is problematic means acknowledging that it must be destroyed, people who enjoy that content are not always going to want to admit it is problematic. It is set up as an all or nothing.

 

[Deleted member 8001]

In topics on representation I don't get defensive about criticism even though I might like the things being criticized, I think everything has the right to be criticized

I might get defensive once people start going down the road of "I don't feel like Quiet should exist" or "I think all the female character designs in street fighter 5 should be changed" because why wouldn't I?

I like those things, and that's just as valid as someone NOT liking those things

Basically if the conversation is "female representation of too skewed one way, we need more diversity and additions of positive female role models" then I'm fully on board

Removal or prevention of things some of us like in games, and that's when I'm not on board

Click to shrink...

But what if what you like is damaging in its over abundance? What if certain things are actually negative and you still like it? I personally wouldn't consider your view of equal standing as to a woman in that situation that is affected in this regard.

 

[DevilPuncher]

This is all just circumstantial and based on things I've seen on forums, in person, or elsewhere, but to me it seems that gamers are highly prone to egocentric thinking. The vast majority of the times I see gamers railing against push-back from problematic aspects in games it's typically due to them being unable to see it as important to them. Other people don't factor into their equation when it comes to these things, therefore they fail to recognize how important these issues are to anyone.

I'm not sure why this is the case, but I'd really like to see a psychological study done on the correlation between self-identified gamers and egocentric behavior/thinking.

 

[saenima]

Most people don't really give a shit about anything besides themselves and those close to them. Either by choice, ignorance or social-economic pressures.

It's hard to care when you don't understand the issues or don't have free time and mental energy to dedicate to those issues. There are also a lot of assholes out there.

 

[Opa-Pa]

They put their enjoyment above the well being of others, AKA lack or empathy, yeah. A lot of them actually don't believe the issues pointed out are real because they've been normalized in society so add that and it's really complicated to have a discussion.

That's probably because people are overreacting most of the time and fake outrage is starting to get on everyone's nerves.

Click to shrink...

Would love to see some examples of "fake outrage" outside of fascists fabricating controversy with Cuphead and that kind of stuff.

 

[Crushed]

Imagine reading an article:
"Why Porsche on set at MS E3 is disgusting"
And then it goes into detail how Porsche was the favorite brand of Hitler and how Porsche made trains that Germany used to deport people and how Volkswagen owns Porsche and VW is destroying the environment and that people who buy the Porsche DLC are supporting fascism.

While this of course is purely hypothetical and might seem redicilous; Porsche probably has a lot more in common with Hitler than 30s cartoons have in common with racism.

People can, and will find faults in anything which IMO opinion is a shame because it detracts from real issues. Nowadays if something comes up, indeed a lot of people go: "not this shit again"
So they won't even listen if real issues come up.

Of course it's not my call to say what should be a real discussion and what not, but sometimes the criticism seems really reaching.

Click to shrink...

If you're referring to the Cuphead thing, that article didn't call the game or MDHR disgusting or anything, it just pointed out the thorny nature of how 1930s American entertainment and animation had a lot of racist imagery and roots (stemming from vaudeville shows that heavily featured minstrelry), meaning a developer's options are either to keep that stuff in there (which is a problem) or scrub it out (which has problems of its own). It didn't attack the devs as racist, Microsoft as racist, or fans of the game as racism supporters.

 

[Platy]

In topics on representation I don't get defensive about criticism even though I might like the things being criticized, I think everything has the right to be criticized

I might get defensive once people start going down the road of "I don't feel like Quiet should exist" or "I think all the female character designs in street fighter 5 should be changed" because why wouldn't I?

I like those things, and that's just as valid as someone NOT liking those things

Basically if the conversation is "female representation of too skewed one way, we need more diversity and additions of positive female role models" then I'm fully on board

Removal or prevention of things some of us like in games, and that's when I'm not on board

Click to shrink...

In a parallel world where we have to exact same industry but representation is not skewerd one way, have more diversity and positive role models, chances are quiet and most SF5 designs would not exist, because you need to take something away from the shitty side to unskew things. And probably objetification of the female body would be easily found in games like senran kagura and Dead or alive beach volleyball because they are niche games made for this. So if SOMETHING was to change it would be in big AAA games like Metal Gear 5 and Street Fighter

What I am trying to say is that what you are fully on board and what you hate are the same thing.

Those games already exist, we are not taking a time machine to remake those. What we want, the part you are fully on board, is that those games becomes rarer and rarer

 

[Edgar]

Most people don't really give a shit about anything besides themselves and those close to them. Either by choice, ignorance or social-economic pressures.

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I do not think that's a bad way of life tho.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It depends on the context of the discussion. Gamers are too fragile about criticism to the hobby especially on social issues. But I also think if you want a discussion based on genuine back and forth you have to present an argument that isn't obnoxious and that is the case often.

 

[Valkyr1983]

I think that's a fair viewpoint to have, but do you think there's a line? Like, can a particular game go too far where you'd not be ok with it? Something like Hatred or even a more extreme example like Rapelay?

Click to shrink...

I don't know much about either of those honestly. I recall hatred talk bring banned at "that other place" and I didn't care either way. More because the game looked like shit and the creator seemed like an edge lord so I didn't really want him getting attention for his game

I've heard of rapelay but never bothered to seek out what it contains so I don't feel versed enough to discuss it?

As far as a line existing... I'd say as long as the game /movie /music doesn't contain threatening hate speech or illegal material like underage pornography, then I'm fine with it

I might not like the content at all but I think it's free to exist in the marketplace

The real issue we need to be having is not "why quiet should or should not exist at all" , it's more like "why are there not enough women in the games industry creating positive characters that can balance out the ones like Cindy or Quiet, as they should all exist"

Atleast in my opinion

 

[Einbroch]

I can only speak from my perspective, but being called a creep, pervert, loser, man-child, pedophile and so on because of an opinion immediately puts me on the defensive and there is hardly any recourse for said person who throws out such hurtful insults.

I'm all for discourse and discussion, but I don't enjoy engaging in such debates. I've been reading the women in gaming thread here, and some users have had some wonderful things to say, but won't engage because of what some insults some users there are throwing out.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It depends on the context of the discussion. Gamers are too fragile about criticism to the hobby especially on social issues. But I also think if you want a discussion based on genuine back and forth you have to present an argument that isn't obnoxious and that isn't the case often.

Click to shrink...

 

[The Unsent]

Because they really like to live in a bubble and are provoked at any attempt to look at the cracks.

 

[Ferrs]

I do not think that's a bad way of life tho.

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If everyone wouldnt give a shit about anything besides themselves as a way of life we wouldn't be where we are now as a society. Thankfully that's not the case.