Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 2, 2017

Dmax3901 said:
The other thing that's weird in XC2 is that there are some comedic scenes that come off as super juvenile, in the sense that they're jokes for kids. Like the guard who didn't know emerald was green, now maybe I'm just being pretentious but that was some VERY basic humour to have a whole scene revolve around it right?

So they wanna entertain kids but then also have tits magee flopping about... very strange.

It's not strange at all, at least for japanese media. Shounen manga magazines are aimed for people with 12 -18 years and there's harem and romcom manga with some characters with big boobs and fanservice so it's not really that different. And even ignoring these, in manga where this isn't the focus, there's some scenes with fanservice too. So yeah, considering this, it's pretty normal.

Chaparral · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
I'm still early in the game, and it doesn't really seem to be the case, there are some self awareness about the whole thing which I find interesting.

Besides, both men and women are all about "titilation" of the other gender, that is what make us a sexual species. I don't really consider that abnormal at all.

You really cannot see how women in gaming might not feel it right for the designs of female characters to focus solely on their sexual aspects, instead of, you know, as people?

cosmicblizzard · Dec 2, 2017

Dmax3901 said:
So they wanna entertain kids but then also have tits magee flopping about... very strange.

This definitely seems to be a cultural thing. Jokes for kids definitely have a tinge of sexuality to them in Japan. Or really it could be nothing more than naked people are funny. Even the country-wide phenomenon that is One Piece has stuff like that.

Like, even stuff for an even younger demographic than Shounen has stuff like Shin chan with his child dick swinging around all over the place.

Kinsei · Dec 2, 2017

a harmless rabbit said:
Yeah, I think that's what bothers me the most about this. Like, you see a costume like Pyra and you expect gratuitous cheesecake everywhere, a constant, voyeuristic focus. Instead you get lots of extreme facial closeups and seeming active avoidance of ever showing her lower back whenever possible on account of those shorts cover nothing.

The only time I feel like I'm getting full body shots of her are when things are at a significant distance, in shots with multiple characters or where she has to directly interact with someone, or during action scenes--and the action scenes feel framed more conservatively than even Hollywood films tend to be with regard to how they treat her body. Even the shots that do wind up looking a little skeevy can almost all be theoretically justified through other reasoning--the waking up in a lap scene is a stock Japanese scene for exhibiting emotional intimacy, for instance (the blur on her face lasts for the duration of an eyeblink and then she's fully in focus, for the record. I had to rewatch it to even confirm the blur happened. Not that the scene wasn't still egregious as hell.)

I've seen a lot of pandery anime trash in my day, willingly even, and this does not feel like it's framed like your everyday pandery anime trash.

I'm sure some will inevitably get a different read of this than I am, but from my end everything about the production from writing to direction seems to be attempting to treat Pyra with respect any character ought to be due, actively working around her design to try and mitigate the damage it inherently does. It makes the entire thing feel schizophrenic, which I guess makes sense for a game with a dozen plus different character designers ranging from relative household names to literal pornographers.

It's really, really weird.

Like, I'd almost prefer for someone to come in here and tell me I'm an idiot who can't parse framing or direction and am willfully ignoring a bunch of dubious trashy camera creeping along with an academic rundown of how Literally Objectively Wrong my read is at this point because that would make more logical sense than what I feel like I'm actually experiencing, here.

It is extremely odd. I have to wonder if you were originally going to be able to purchase core crystals via microtransactions. That would at least make slightly more sense as Pyra's outfit could be seen as an advertisement telling people they could get more girls in skimpy clothes if they shelled out the cash.

Speaking of core crystals (and by extension the rare blades), I find it odd that Pyra became the lightning rod for discussion of the character designs in XB2 when the Choco blades are in the game. Pyra's outfit is bad but at least she's not a prepubescent child.

D.A. · Dec 2, 2017

Chaparral said:
You really cannot see how women in gaming might not feel it right for the designs of female characters to focus solely on their sexual aspects, instead of, you know, as people?

Is the game solely focusing on sexual aspects without also showing any personality?

On other games the sexual aspect is used in addition to other aspects. I mean say Palutena's anime intro. It's not like that intro shows her as some inanimate or animate sex object with no personality or traits.

Omar · Dec 2, 2017

Chaparral said:
You really cannot see how women in gaming might not feel it right for the designs of female characters to focus solely on their sexual aspects, instead of, you know, as people?

I'm not trying to be adversarial for the sake of it, I lean more in the side of progressive ideas, however:

To extreme of a posture don't you think?

1 - "you know, as people? " - yes, real people are very sexual that is why we are around at 7.6 billion human attm

2- "women in gaming might not feel it right" - yeah, I can see some of them not connecting with that, yet some others do connect with that archetype. Some women actually actively seek and enjoy being desired by their sexual attributes. Is that wrong?

And this need to be desired is not restricted to one gender

Sheldon · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
1 - "you know, as people? " - yes, real people are very sexual that is why we are around at 7.6 billion human attm

You're still talking about the immortal magical blade girl with no need for sexual reproduction, yes?

Omar · Dec 2, 2017

Sheldon said:
You're still talking about the immortal magical blade girl with no need for sexual reproduction, yes?

If you red all my post I've mention both genders alike

we like to be desired sexually, its just biology

sabrina · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
we like to be desired sexually, its just biology

If it was that simple do you really think so many women would have a problem with it? Honestly?

Opa-Pa · Dec 2, 2017

Liking sex as a species doesn't mean we have to shoehorn it into everything we produce, that's juvenile. We (supposedly...) can tell when is the right time and place for sex, we're people after all, not animals.

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 2, 2017

Dmax3901 said:
https://streamable.com/v14z7

Very mild Chapter 2 spoilers for XC2. Please release a DLC where this is what she wears permanently.

When you say 'it' what do you mean. See what in a positive light? Butts? I love butts, everyone here probably likes butts. Who is saying they don't like butts? It's about context. This just sounds like the prudish argument again.

What's your point here?

Her design with this outfit is a mess but is much better than the final product of her final design.

And the option to change the costumes in future updates would be lovely but I doubt that it's going to happen. :/

Chaparral · Dec 2, 2017

sabrina said:
If it was that simple do you really think so many women would have a problem with it? Honestly?

That's what frustrates me so much about these strawman arguments pulled out for 'biology' and 'prudishness'

Not all women are created in a vacuum. Some might like sex, and others don't. Both are fine. But female characters in video games are obviously designed for the former, and more often then not by men who seem to believe their word triumphs the word of the various female players who stand up and say: 'Hey, we don't like being portrayed like this.' And then we get gross generalizations.

Omar · Dec 2, 2017

sabrina said:
If it was that simple do you really think so many women would have a problem with it? Honestly?

Listen, I respect men & women who doesn't have that need. I also respect the men & women who do have it

I don't attach a moral judgement either way

Sheldon · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
If you red all my post I've mention both genders alike

we like to be desired sexually, its just biology

But specifically, what reason does Pyra have to want to be sexually desirably, as dictated by her biology? You're still early in the game, I haven't played at all yet, other posters in this thread have many hours to judge and if I'm reading their reactions right Pyra's titilation actively harms how the game actually wishes to portray her relationship to little boy Rex.

Omar · Dec 2, 2017

Sheldon said:
But specifically, what reason does Pyra have to want to be sexually desirably, as dictated by her biology? You're still early in the game, I haven't played at all yet, other posters in this thread have many hours to judge and if I'm reading their reactions right Pyra's titilation actively harms how the game actually wishes to portray her relationship to little boy Rex.

Yeah, I can see it go wrong real fast (as per usual with pulp). As right now at least I find interesting the semi self-awareness the game has with his characters.

CannonFodder52 · Dec 2, 2017

sabrina said:
If it was that simple do you really think so many women would have a problem with it? Honestly?

It's actually an elaborate ruse. Once video games finally begin to shift, women(the monolith) will reveal it was just a joke. Unfortunately by that point it will be too late, all protagonists will have become featureless women.

D.A. · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
I'm not trying to be adversarial for the sake of it, I lean more in the side of progressive ideas, however:

To extreme of a posture don't you think?

1 - "you know, as people? " - yes, real people are very sexual that is why we are around at 7.6 billion human attm

2- "women in gaming might not feel it right" - yeah, I can see some of them not connecting with that, yet some others do connect with that archetype. Some women actually actively seek and enjoy being desired by their sexual attributes. Is that wrong?

And this need to be desired is not restricted to one gender

That reminded me that real women who dress and pose provocatively are told they're objectifying themselves or that they're sex objects, iirc.

Personally I think anyone who dresses and poses provocatively is not a sexual object and is not objectifying themselves.

MetalLord · Dec 2, 2017

CSSD said:
I'm very happy to see that you guys are enjoying Pyra as a character and calling her like that. I'm not with Xenoblade 2 right now (probably tomorrow) but with people liking her despite her controversial design, at least this is a good thing for me.
I'm not that bothered by her design like you or some others but I can totally understand what you guys are saying about her. In fact, I actually like her design in a basic level with the colors, gloves, face and hair but I would change some parts of the clothes and body including making her boobs a bit more smaller and I would make some changes like in this image about a possible "censorship". If they did this, it would be much better for her but unfortunately, it's too late for that.

Dmax3901 · Dec 2, 2017

D.A. said:
See fan service in a positive light. There are quite a few of both genders that would probably defend it and find it in a positive light. Even if they are a minority the majority isn't right by default.

Don't want to rethread the anticulture argument. Some are more easily influenced some barely influenced. I'm barely influenced I pick and choose from cultures from across the world. The local culture in which I grew I disliked it from a young age despite everyone around being gungho about it, had to fake interest in it not to hurt feelings or seem like a weirdo.

Culture influencing people is an argument for age restrictions or parental locks on fan service, but regards adults the higher ratings are there to allow for virtually anything, gore, torture, etc

But in order to see fan service in a positive light you have to actively ignore all the people, men and women, who it alienates. Is Pyra having slightly less obvious breasts and maybe a pair of pants REALLY gonna effect you in the same way? Will that REALLY ruin your experence of her as a character? Cause the way she's designed now IS actually hampering my attempts at connecting to her as a character.

Omar said:
I'm still early in the game, and it doesn't really seem to be the case, there are some self awareness about the whole thing which I find interesting.

Besides, both men and women are all about "titilation" of the other gender, that is what make us a sexual species. I don't really consider that abnormal at all.

So everything should be all titillation, all the time? Do you want titillation from the newsreader telling you about terrorist attacks? Do you want titillation at a funeral? Extreme examples, but that's just it: context. Certain behaviours and/or outfits are out of place in certain situations. Which is exactly what's happening with Pyra and XC2 for a lot of people.

Antiwhippy said:
it's not really that weird.

One piece is meant to be for kids too.

CSSD said:
It's not strange at all, at least for japanese media. Shounen manga magazines are aimed for people with 12 -18 years and there's harem and romcom manga with some characters with big boobs and fanservice so it's not really that different. And even ignoring these, in manga where this isn't the focus, there's some scenes with fanservice too. So yeah, considering this, it's pretty normal.

When I said weird I meant I find the juxtaposition of child-like humour and Pyra's design to be very strange, didn't mean to suggest it wasn't common.

MetalLord said:

See I have very little issue with this and it would be SO easy to change and wouldn't harm anyone.

Opa-Pa · Dec 2, 2017

This reminds me of something I've been thinking. I was wondering when was the first time I started rejecting cheap tiltillation in games, because while I remember finding some examples weird growing up like when I first played Soul Calibur II, I still ignored it at worst, but nowadays is an ever present problem when playing stuff filled with fanservice (like XB2, which btw I can't play because it was sold out everywhere!). And while I can't remember when it was, I can remember why I got fed up... Something clicked with me and I realized these games were essentially treating me like an animal. It sounds simplistic, but it's true, they try to lure us men with the oldest trick in the book, good ol' titties, and some are so blatant about it that it feels genuinely insulting, and of course we're so used to being sold women's bodies as entertaintment that as a society we don't find it weird at all unless it's some very extreme case.

I think this is the reason I gave up on Soul Calibur after III and became more selective with what I bought during a period of my life. I remember being interested in Xenosaga due to the pedigree behind it but immediately dismissing it after seeing KOS-MOS for example. With the time I've gotten more "tolerant" of this garbage and I'm capable of enjoying more games with it but it's still so annoying to see, and none of this is even related to how it affects women of course, which makes it all the more gross and disturbing.

--------------------------------
Oh and by the way, thank you guys for explaining the "PS2" thing about XB2, the game sounds straight up incredible, I'm so jealous... Maybe next week!

Dmax3901 · Dec 2, 2017

Pretty sure my first encounter with something where I was like 'whoa' was:

But I was far too young to think anything other than aw geez she's pretty much naked. Probably wouldn't be til Bayonetta that I first started thinking about wtf I was looking at, lol.

D.A. · Dec 2, 2017

Dmax3901 said:
But in order to see fan service in a positive light you have to actively ignore all the people, men and women, who it alienates. Is Pyra having slightly less obvious breasts and maybe a pair of pants REALLY gonna effect you in the same way? Will that REALLY ruin your experence of her as a character? Cause the way she's designed now IS actually hampering my attempts at connecting to her as a character.

To me lack of fan service does affect my enjoyment. There's mods but not always of high quality or soon enough.

If most don't like it it could be put as dlc, nondefault, locked away somehow, but I think having the option is nice regards adult characters.

Sheldon · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
Yeah, I can see it go wrong real fast (as per usual with pulp). As right now at least I find interesting the semi self-awareness the game has with his characters.

So you can see where sexualization can go wrong, have even seen it often enough to know it's usual in certain circumstances. Now how many examples can you think of where making sexuality a big part of a character's appearance either didn't fit with that character's, well, character or contradicted it or at least distracted from what is really essential about their personality or role in the story?

Because if you can do all that, I don't understand why you can't answer the question

Chaparral said:
You really cannot see how women in gaming might not feel it right for the designs of female characters to focus solely on their sexual aspects, instead of, you know, as people?

simply with a "Yes" instead of going into extreme posturing about how women who don't always want to have to be desirable must logically never enjoy feeling desirable and how biological truth that may never be challenged by society?

CannonFodder52 · Dec 2, 2017

D.A. said:
If most don't like it it could be put as dlc, nondefault, locked away somehow, but I think having the option is nice regards adult characters.

That would be actually be a pretty big improvement in a few of the games being discussed.

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 2, 2017

MetalLord said:

This would be great in the game and I think that a localization would do better for the design of Pyra. Unfortunately, it seems that they were fearing the reception like X and even when involved directly, they didn't change aspects of it.

D.A. · Dec 2, 2017

CSSD said:
This would be great in the game and I think that a localization would do better for the design of Pyra. Unfortunately, it seems that they were fearing the reception like X and even when involved directly, they didn't change aspects of it.

I think the problem is not with such hypothetical changes but with obliterating the other content without making it optional somehow.

Many in the pro fan service community are ok with making fan service content nondefault optional.

Pablo Mesa · Dec 2, 2017

MetalLord said:

Whoever made this pic needs to get hanged, I know its the unpopular opinion but

Butterfly hairpins are terrible and the pink does not combine with her color pallet

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 2, 2017

D.A. said:
I think the problem is not with such hypothetical changes but with obliterating the other content without making it optional somehow.

Many in the pro fan service community are ok with making such content nondefault optional.

Yeah. Like I said, I would love to see a free update with change of costumes because I was watching the beginning of the game and Pyra's boobs are really big and sometimes makes the scene awkward. It's bothering me now much more than before for some reason and I think that It's my biggest gripe with her design. If they changed the size, she would be better in this aspect.

Mr. Blue Sky · Dec 2, 2017

It's a bit late here so I feel like I'm gonna butcher my own thought here but in regards to when the question of whether or not people would miss something if fanservice designs were removed from a game comes up and people say yes I'm kind of left wondering if you can actually say whether not that's true or not. Like take Pyra or Quiet since they seem to be two examples used a lot in this thread, if both MGSV and XC2 in a different timeline were both initially revealed the same way they were originally and the game and story were exactly the same but they both had nonfanservice/objectifying outfits would that really be something that you would look at and be like, hey, why aren't their outfits more revealing? I guess I suppose this question might be posed more in terms of localization or feedback changes but its just something that crosses my mind at times.

kaytee · Dec 2, 2017

Omar said:
Blonde bikini shots all over LAX = OK (I mean but they are classy pictures right?.. right?)

Weird looking suit for Anime girl = SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION

Feminists have critiqued advertisements for a looooong time, so I'm not sure why you would think it gets a pass. If you look up a 101 article about sexual objectification, it's almost always about ads.

Sony · Dec 2, 2017

What is stopping people from creating non-sexualuzed designs? Nothing. Apparently they're creating things people want/like. Are you telling me I should not want/like this?

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

Ferrs · Dec 2, 2017

Oops, seems like things blew a little out of proportion when I went to sleep with Anti and me :p Sorry maybe I should have posted more carefully but dont worry, he and me are forum pals and have talked Nier thingies before :)

Antiwhippy said:
Dude we've interacted with each other in the nier community quite a few times? Unless ferry feels uncomfortable about it in which case I apologise

Absolutely no ofense :) I mean you may be right, and it was just Nier community talking.

sabrina · Dec 2, 2017

Sony said:
What is stopping people from creating non-sexualuzed designs? Nothing. Apparently they're creating things people want/like. Are you telling me I should not want/like this?

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

If you had read the OP you would know that nobody is telling you what you should or shouldn't like.

Many of us want something else. This is one of the ways we're attempting to communicate it. If you don't care to actually engage in the conversation at hand you're welcome to stay out of the thread.

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 2, 2017

Still about Pyra (sorry about that), I was looking at her design and her boobs are much more smaller in the key art than in the game model where her boobs are much more bigger and distracting from the cutscenes. So even I think that the problem in this case is who created the model for the game and altered it in the transaction.

Xaszatm · Dec 2, 2017

Sony said:
What is stopping people from creating non-sexualuzed designs? Nothing. Apparently they're creating things people want/like. Are you telling me I should not want/like this?

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

1. No one is saying what one should like
2. This entire thread is based around why someone would have issue with a design choice, not to censor and destroy it, but how it affects our gaming experience.
3. Please explain how male fantasy is somehow worse than female exploitation.

Deleted member 7130 · Dec 2, 2017

Sony said:
What is stopping people from creating non-sexualuzed designs? Nothing. Apparently they're creating things people want/like. Are you telling me I should not want/like this?

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

This sort of thing reads like a troll post at this point. Crude, dismissive, and basic to a ridiculous degree.

... but fuck it. Do explain how showing buff men is worse than the state female representation. ~~Dig that hole~~ Explain your totally novel and never before presented argument.

Morrigan · Dec 2, 2017

Mr. Blue Sky said:
It's a bit late here so I feel like I'm gonna butcher my own thought here but in regards to when the question of whether or not people would miss something if fanservice designs were removed from a game comes up and people say yes I'm kind of left wondering if you can actually say whether not that's true or not. Like take Pyra or Quiet since they seem to be two examples used a lot in this thread, if both MGSV and XC2 in a different timeline were both initially revealed the same way they were originally and the game and story were exactly the same but they both had nonfanservice/objectifying outfits would that really be something that you would look at and be like, hey, why aren't their outfits more revealing? I guess I suppose this question might be posed more in terms of localization or feedback changes but its just something that crosses my mind at times.

You know they wouldn't. No one ever talked about a new game wondering why ___'s costume isn't more revealing or sexy.

For all the crying about taking away their boobies, truth is, most people wouldn't miss it at all.

HyperFerret · Dec 2, 2017

Sony said:
Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

Shirtless men aren't the same level because society doesn't deem it sexualized. Which is why men can walk around without shirts but for some reason women can't.

You don't see games zooming in on mens' abs and crotch bulges at the same rate you see a camera zooming in on a woman's boobs and butt. You don't see dick size sliders at the same rate you see boobs size sliders.

For example, Kratos is not sexualized. He has gray skin and a crazy personality, not at all someone intended to attract. I'm sure some women are into him, but his character design did not have fanservice in mind, but a male power fantasy.

In fact, the only male character I can think of where they actually changed his design to appeal more to women was Dante from DMC. He lost his shirt sometime during development of DMC3, and I recall reading an interview somewhere that this design choice was intended for female gaze but for the life of me I cannot find the site where I read that. Maybe it was a magazine, I dunno.

I know it may sound like I'm saying that men without shirts are sexualized and aren't at the same time, but the point is intention, not the designs themselves.

Ashes · Dec 2, 2017

Perhaps when the gaming world becomes less of a 'boys' club, we'll see more progress.

Ferrs · Dec 2, 2017

A good example of sexualized male design will always be the FF Mobius guy, if only because they had to cover him after """"fan feedback"""".

That some people are ok with sexualized females designs but then see the FF Mobius guy and think he looks stupid should give them a hint.
Sadly it doesnt.

Deleted member 19218 · Dec 2, 2017

cosmicblizzard said:
This definitely seems to be a cultural thing. Jokes for kids definitely have a tinge of sexuality to them in Japan. Or really it could be nothing more than naked people are funny. Even the country-wide phenomenon that is One Piece has stuff like that.

Like, even stuff for an even younger demographic than Shounen has stuff like Shin chan with his child dick swinging around all over the place.

Reading the Dragon Ball manga, there is a bit where Bulma is sleeping and Goku starts touching her groin while she is sleeping. Kids comic by the way.

Sony · Dec 2, 2017

Yo the people who have quoted me, I will explain in a couple of hours as I can't now. Also, the mod edit in the OP wasn't there the first time I posted in this thread. I don't read the OP every time I post in this thread. I've read the OP before (pre mod edit) and I've posted in this thread before.

Morrigan · Dec 2, 2017

I'll edit the thread title, but the warning stands. It was a bad, condescending drive-by post.

Pablo Mesa · Dec 2, 2017

HyperFerret said:
Shirtless men aren't the same level because society doesn't deem it sexualized. Which is why men can walk around without shirts but for some reason women can't.

You don't see games zooming in on mens' abs and crotch bulges at the same rate you see a camera zooming in on a woman's boobs and butt. You don't see dick size sliders at the same rate you see boobs size sliders.

For example, Kratos is not sexualized. He has gray skin and a crazy personality, not at all someone intended to attract. I'm sure some women are into him, but his character design did not have fanservice in mind, but a male power fantasy.

In fact, the only male character I can think of where they actually changed his design to appeal more to women was Dante from DMC. He lost his shirt sometime during development of DMC3, and I recall reading an interview somewhere that this design choice was intended for female gaze but for the life of me I cannot find the site where I read that. Maybe it was a magazine, I dunno.

I know it may sound like I'm saying that men without shirts are sexualized and aren't at the same time, but the point is intention, not the designs themselves.

Maybe is not on the sexual alley per say, but I will argue that male designs do can harm someone self steem about their body or looks same as for the woman

Choppasmith · Dec 2, 2017

Nav said:
Nadia Oxford wrote this:

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/xenoblade-chronicles-2-pyra-review-followup

There's More to Pyra—and Xenoblade Chronicles 2—than a Sexy Fanservice Outfit

I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about XB2. At the beginning right now.

Yeah, I'm in the middle of Chapter 2 right now. And I'm really surprised by Pyra. I was expecting some kind of a "damsel" character. Someone who was meek and shy, but she's voiced by a VA that gives her an air of maturity, of strength and confidence.

Very much like the editorial there says, I do like Fran and Mia and I think you can let their dumb fashion decisions slide because they're pretty good characters. I feel like Pyra will end up being the same thing. I've already laughed at a lot of her random lines. I'm really liking Nia too, and I've gotten a peek at Morag.

RalchAC · Dec 2, 2017

Ferrs said:
A good example of sexualized male design will always be the FF Mobius guy, if only because they had to cover him after """"fan feedback"""".

That some people are ok with sexualized females designs but then see the FF Mobius guy and think he looks stupid should give them a hint.
Sadly it doesnt.

I'm not going to say that women don't like that kind of design, but I honestly feel that part of the reason you don't see them as much is because a lot of women look for different things when considering a character attractive. Like, look at the Tales series. It has a rather big female fanbase, and it's the kind of fanbase that buys merchandise in droves. Saying that Tales games characters aren't designed with their female audience in mind would be naive at best, but if you look at the most recent character polls (Tales Festa, which is an event where the male to female ratio is really, really heavily skewed towards the latter) you'd always see characters like Yuri and Leon moping the floor with them.

I haven't really gotten into otome games (visual novels for women) and I've read a bit of shojo manga, but I get the feeling that those "reverse harem" series featuring a female character surrounded by a group of attractive males don't go to the "horny 13 years old that likes to stare at its well developed classmate" level that most shonen go.

You can have stuff like that Free! series about a swimming club, of course. I'll watch a couple of episodes and see if my opinion changes after that. They should strive to create attractive females in the same way they do with the males above IMO.

Antiwhippy · Dec 2, 2017

Trying to equate female gaze and male gaze is not really the thing to do because they are fairly different in the general sense.

Pablo Mesa · Dec 2, 2017

RalchAC said:
I'm not going to say that women don't like that kind of design, but I honestly feel that part of the reason you don't see them as much is because a lot of women look for different things when considering a character attractive

Agreed, im doing some guesswork, but games oriented to woman dont lack male nudity or giant dongs out of purity or bias, but cause female audiences are not really that interest on those features from a male model. Most Otome game are not your He-man tier design, but instead go for the Bishonen type, bromanship (or out right homosexuality), etc etc etc.

Ferrs · Dec 2, 2017

RalchAC said:
I'm not going to say that women don't like that kind of design, but I honestly feel that part of the reason you don't see them as much is because a lot of women look for different things when considering a character attractive. Like, look at the Tales series. It has a rather big female fanbase, and it's the kind of fanbase that buys merchandise in droves. Saying that Tales games characters aren't designed with their female audience in mind would be naive at best, but if you look at the most recent character polls (Tales Festa, which is an event where the male to female ratio is really, really heavily skewed towards the latter) you'd always see characters like Yuri and Leon moping the floor with them.

I haven't really gotten into otome games (visual novels for women) and I've read a bit of shojo manga, but I get the feeling that those "reverse harem" series featuring a female character surrounded by a group of attractive males don't go to the "horny 13 years old that likes to stare at its well developed classmate" level that most shonen go.

You can have stuff like that Free! series about a swimming club, of course. I'll watch a couple of episodes and see if my opinion changes after that. They should strive to create attractive females in the same way they do with the males above IMO.

Oh I agree. Sexualization works different.

When I said good I meant in the sense of equivalence compared to the usual sexualized female design, pointing how some men find jarring when a male character is designed with the same design philosophy that a sexualized female character like Pyra for example, and that should make them understand how women felt.

I didnt express myself correctly there, didnt mean it was the kind of design women wanted. That is something I can't know myself.

RalchAC · Dec 2, 2017

Pablo Mesa said:
Agreed, im doing some guesswork, but games oriented to woman dont lack male nudity or giant dongs out of purity or bias, but cause female audiences are not really that interest on those features from a male model. Most Otome game are not your He-man tier design, but instead go for the Bishonen type, bromanship (or out right homosexuality), etc etc etc.

Bromanship and homosexuality is in general quite widespread around part of the anime fanbase in both Japan and the West. Series like Naruto and Attack on Titan have huge amounts of male romance fan fiction. A friend of mine wrote some stuff about that when she was into her early twenties lol.

Ferrs said:
Oh I agree. Sexualization works different.

When I said good I meant in the sense of equivalence compared to the usual sexualized female design, pointing how some men find jarring when a male character is designed with the same design philosophy that a sexualized female character like Pyra for example, and that should make them understand how women felt.

I didnt express myself correctly there, didnt mean it was the kind of design women wanted. That is something I can't know myself.

Don't worry, I wasn't trying to counter your argument or anything, just expanding your point showing what I feel is the most usual approach for creating attractive males.

I mean, Yuri is one of the favorite characters in the series, period. Both for man and woman. I'm sure there is a way to use the same design principles for female characters. You need to put it some thought of course.

Yuna from FFX could be a good example, I think. It was one of my first crushes when I was like 12 years old and she is a well developed, fairly attractive character that young women can look up. She was a fantastic character all around IMO.

We should demand more of that.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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