Doctor Who-ERA |OT| It's Almost Time... But Not Yet

Blader said:

1. Deep Breath
The worst Doctor intro episode of the modern show - not to say it's a *bad* episode, though it does tread that line pretty often. Things pick up a lot once we get to the restaurant and on to the end, but the 30-40 minutes preceding it is just not good. Too much sermonizing from Vastra about how Clara/the audience needs to get over their Eleventh Doctor crush (which, frankly, I think is a pretty overdone reaction), padding all over the place (a dinosaur on the Thames or the Doctor digging through trash has nothing to do with anything), some really odd direction with wacky sound effects that play like the WWIII/Aliens of London two-parter from way back -- and, up until the restaurant scene, Capaldi is acting too BIG. I get post-regeneration mania, but this is too much. I guess that's my main issue with the first half of this episode: it's just too annoying, and it's a generally bad first impression for both Capaldi himself and Capaldi and Clara as a duo. The restaurant scene is where things turn around because Capaldi's performance is more restrained and we star to see the beginnings of his and Clara's rapport, which would define their two seasons together.

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It was exciting at the time to get a longer opening, but Deep Breath is in desperate need for a shorter cut. If for nothing else to reduce the number of times Vastra and Jenny remind us they're married, the scenes of which come across as written to be different options one of which was supposed to be chosen to make the final cut, not all of them for crying out loud.

Blader said:

1. Deep Breath
The worst Doctor intro episode of the modern show - not to say it's a *bad* episode, though it does tread that line pretty often. Things pick up a lot once we get to the restaurant and on to the end, but the 30-40 minutes preceding it is just not good. Too much sermonizing from Vastra about how Clara/the audience needs to get over their Eleventh Doctor crush (which, frankly, I think is a pretty overdone reaction), padding all over the place (a dinosaur on the Thames or the Doctor digging through trash has nothing to do with anything), some really odd direction with wacky sound effects that play like the WWIII/Aliens of London two-parter from way back -- and, up until the restaurant scene, Capaldi is acting too BIG. I get post-regeneration mania, but this is too much. I guess that's my main issue with the first half of this episode: it's just too annoying, and it's a generally bad first impression for both Capaldi himself and Capaldi and Clara as a duo. The restaurant scene is where things turn around because Capaldi's performance is more restrained and we star to see the beginnings of his and Clara's rapport, which would define their two seasons together.

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Want me to prove you utterly wrong with not even a single sentence?

M.Bluth said:

It was exciting at the time to get a longer opening, but Deep Breath is in desperate need for a shorter cut. If for nothing else to reduce the number of times Vastra and Jenny remind us they're married, the scenes of which come across as written to be different options one of which was supposed to be chosen to make the final cut, not all of them for crying out loud.

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The problem is really those characters, to be honest. Scarred from the struggle of writing the Eleventh Hour (which is, let's be fair, fucking incredible) Moffat felt like he wanted to surround Capaldi with familiar faces to support him, which is exactly what RTD did in The Christmas Invasion. I can't imagine that episode without Jackie, Mickey or even Harriet Jones, but I absolutely can imagine a version of Deep Breath without those three - which is why, like you say, the show could easily lose fifteen minutes and be fine. Also, weirdly, I'm really not a fan about how the victory moment for the Doctor takes place away from Clara and the others, whereas 10 and 11's first victories are in front of their companions, almost to reaffirm to them, and the audience, the Doctor's status.

Anyway. Yeah. It wasn't a great start, but things sure got better!

APZonerunner said:

Also, weirdly, I'm really not a fan about how the victory moment for the Doctor takes place away from Clara and the others, whereas 10 and 11's first victories are in front of their companions, almost to reaffirm to them, and the audience, the Doctor's status.

Anyway. Yeah. It wasn't a great start, but things sure got better!

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I was fine with how they handled that. They were angling for a stark change in how people saw the doctor.

Clara didn't trust the new guy so when he goes off and kills the bad dude off-camera it doesn't give her any additional reason to believe him when he says he's the same person.

They wanted to bring a darker edge to his actions with 12 by making him as manipulative as 7 (Orient Express, Kill the Moon) but clearly pivoted away from that over the following years by giving him a conscience again. The problems you're describing here are basically with the tonal shift they never followed through with.

SlipperyFishes said:

I was fine with how they handled that. They were angling for a stark change in how people saw the doctor.

Clara didn't trust the new guy so when he goes off and kills the bad dude off-camera it doesn't give her any additional reason to believe him when he says he's the same person.

They wanted to bring a darker edge to his actions with 12 by making him as manipulative as 7 (Orient Express, Kill the Moon) but clearly pivoted away from that over the following years by giving him a conscience again. The problems you're describing here are basically with the tonal shift they never followed through with.

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Oh, that's true enough, yeah. Though also I sort of feel like it would've been better if Clara had seen him kill more freely (albeit still reluctantly) than her previous Doctor - that would've given her hesitation to join him even more weight, surely? Alas. I'm glad they moved away from it though.

So is this weird, and I don't think I like it.

Amazon Prime is going to be airing the Christmas special early, starting December 18. I am sure the regeneration will be cut out but still weird.

https://blogtorwho.com/amazon-xmas-early/

In surprising news, Amazon Video has pulled out the best early Christmas present for Who fans.
Rather than have to wait for Christmas Day for 'Twice Upon a Time', US viewers will have the chance to see it early. A whole week before the episode is transmitted on Christmas Day.

It is reported on PC Mag that Amazon Prime Video will be bringing 'Twice Upon A Time' to its service on December 18th. Traditionally it has aired in the US on BBC America on Christmas Day, but Amazon will be delivering early this year.

The hour-long special is written the last episode written by showrunner and lead writer Steven Moffat. It is directed by fan-favourite Rachel Talalay and executive produced by Brian Minchin. The guest stars include David Bradley as the First Doctor, Mark Gatiss as The Captain and Nikki Amuka-Bird as the voice of the Glass Woman. This will be the last episode for Peter Capaldi's Doctor as he regenerates into the Thirteenth Doctor and hands over the keys to the TARDIS to Jodie Whittaker.

It'll be very interesting to watch how this works out. It'll be effective in combating the packed programming that Doctor Who fights against on Xmas Day in the US. But, how this will work with the BBC hoping to keep secrets of the plot, the regeneration, and Thirteenth Doctor reveal from breaking out before Christmas Day remains to be seen.

There are free screenings in the North of the UK throughout December. These aren't as widespread and available as being screened on Amazon Video a week early though.

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I guess that Amazon Prime sub is paying off.

Weird the BBC is airing the episode so early. I wonder if it's really good and they want to build up the buzz for the casual audience.

I definitely don't like it. It's gonna be everywhere within hours, and I just don't see the point

Christ the BBC must be getting a bucket load of money to effectively have it on torrent quickly. I'd hope so at least.

I mean the premieres are a big thing, but to have it on Amazon?!

The article says it's not this years.
Probably last years.

Oh phew. PC Mag fucked up.

Stand down people.

Spectromixer said:

So is this weird, and I don't think I like it.

Amazon Prime is going to be airing the Christmas special early, starting December 18. I am sure the regeneration will be cut out but still weird.

https://blogtorwho.com/amazon-xmas-early/

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This is crazy but it solves the problem of having to watch it on Christmas Day, I guess. Wonder if it will be available in Canada as well.

Edit: It seems like we've been misinformed.

How do you fuck up THAT?!

Wow, can't believe PCMag screwed up that badly

M.Bluth said:

It was exciting at the time to get a longer opening, but Deep Breath is in desperate need for a shorter cut. If for nothing else to reduce the number of times Vastra and Jenny remind us they're married, the scenes of which come across as written to be different options one of which was supposed to be chosen to make the final cut, not all of them for crying out loud.

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Haha, yeah, I forgot to mention. They directly reference their marriage four times within just a few minutes!

WoollyTitan said:

Want me to prove you utterly wrong with not even a single sentence?

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I don't get it... I said it got better in the second half!

Nearly had a heart attack at the thought of the Christmas episode getting spoiled, that shit *belongs* on Christmas Day

Best part of Deep Breath...

Problem is last year's episode is already available on Amazon Prime for streaming.

EvilChameleon said:

Problem is last year's episode is already available on Amazon Prime for streaming.

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Is it in the UK, though? PCMag UK is who reported it

Ah, well that I'm not sure about.

Blader said:

I don't get it... I said it got better in the second half!

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You still called the worst episode of the modern series. :P Or should I remind you about the ones with the farting aliens?

Last I checked, we didn't even have series 9 on Netflix, so I doubt last year's Christmas special was on Prime.

WoollyTitan said:

You still called the worst episode of the modern series. :P Or should I remind you about the ones with the farting aliens?

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No I meant the worst Doctor intro episode, not the worst episode ever, haha. That'd be a very different list!

I was more thinking: The Eleventh Hour > The Christmas Invasion > Rose > Deep Breath

The advanced screening for this year's special is confirmed to be false, right? I hope so :/

Blader said:

No I meant the worst Doctor intro episode, not the worst episode ever, haha. That'd be a very different list!

I was more thinking: The Eleventh Hour > The Christmas Invasion > Rose > Deep Breath

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I'm not a fan of The Christmas Invasion. The Eleventh Hour is very fine though.

All intro eps, ranked:

Power of the Daleks
The Eleventh Hour
Spearhead from Space
Robot
An Unearthly Child
Rose
Castrovalva
Deep Breath
The Christmas Invasion
Time and the Rani
The Twin Dilemma

Blader said:

I was more thinking: The Eleventh Hour > The Christmas Invasion > Rose > Deep Breath

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I love the Paternoster Gang, so if not for Rose's historic nature I might be tempted to reverse the last two.

Blader said:

I was more thinking: The Eleventh Hour > The Christmas Invasion > Rose > Deep Breath

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I personally would rank Rose at the bottom of this. I really appreciate all the right things it does, and boy was re-introducing Doctor Who to the world a mighty task, but no matter how hard I try, I don't love it.
And I don't really enjoy a lot of it on rewatches. Unlike say Christmas Invasion which I still get giddy watching the whole "I speak only Sycorax!!" scene.

Ignatz Mouse said:

Best part of Deep Breath...

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Oh it's full of joy. Strax examining Clara's mind which he finds to be full of muscular young men doing sport. "Is that sport? It could be sport." Vastra saving Jenny by giving her the benefit of her superior respiratory system. The way one does.

How is there not a 45 minute fan edit of Deep Breath yet? Or is there?

acheron_xl said:

I'm not a fan of The Christmas Invasion. The Eleventh Hour is very fine though.

All intro eps, ranked:

Power of the Daleks
The Eleventh Hour
Spearhead from Space
Robot
An Unearthly Child
Rose
Castrovalva
Deep Breath
The Christmas Invasion
Time and the Rani
The Twin Dilemma

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Can't really argue though I have yet to see Power of the Daleks (Its an xmas gift)

My personal fave is Spearhead from Space. While it certainly looks rooted in a late 60s aesthetic, it doesn't look at all dated and cheap for having been shot on film. Always wish they'd moved to film even if it had meant fewer episodes. Film had another advantage, they had different unions (which is why Thames formed Euston films in the early 70s- so they could get around the more strike-prone TV studio-based unions). Also, we wouldn't have all that shitty CSO effects on everything. Though everything would probably have looked closer to UFO.
Robot is alright but you can definitely see the joins from the Pertwee era (it was film as part of Pertwee's last season rather than Baker's first) and Tom is relatively uptight in the first one with insanely perfect diction compared to later on. Castrovalva I like because it's the first one I saw on its original transmission. Twin Dilemma being a massive let down after Caves, Time and the Rani just being a massive let down in every way.

Rose I liked because it seemed to keep faith with the original series more than the TV movie (though the plastic bin was always terrible). Christmas Invasion is good even though there's hardly any Tennant in there and even Deep Breath, which suffers from weird pacing that takes time to get going and that general Moffat disjointedness (great ideas with no relation to anything else just thrown at the wall and hope they slide to the ground in some order that makes sense.

8bit said:

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John Hurt chestbursting out of Tennant, there. Apt.

mclem said:

John Hurt chestbursting out of Tennant, there. Apt.

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It looks like 11 is having a fart, much to the dismay of 7 and 5.

NTom64_HFC said:

The advanced screening for this year's special is confirmed to be false, right? I hope so :/

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Yes, PCMag messed up

LL_Decitrig said:

Moffat also describes how he has fun in the show contrasting Twelve with One's comparatively old fashioned sexism, hinting that this provides the spur to bring about the first on-screen female Doctor Who in the show's 54 years.

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Which does make me think that I'd quite like the opportunity to see Whittaker interact with Bradley, but I imagine they'll wrap up the Bradley story before the regeneration actually takes place. Still, I think it'd be a nice touch.

So, bets on whether it's Moffat or Chibnall who writes the first boob joke.

ClivePwned said:

So, bets on whether it's Moffat or Chibnall who writes the first boob joke.

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Whittaker's scene is all Chibnall's. Though I'd say the Master asking Bill for old bras probably counts.

anyone know when Shade is out digitally in US?
Amazon says the DVD is out Sept 2018 which seems dumb.

Spectromixer said:

Yes, PCMag messed up

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Thanks. Panic averted!

I hope there aren't too many boob jokes or jokes about being a female. It wasn't an issue for over 50 years so it shouldn't become a big thing now.

It would be classier for the Doctor to comment on it then move on and just be awesome.

I really need to get on with my Capaldi Greatest Hits rewatch before too long. This is the first time since I started regularly watching the show again where an outgoing Doctor is my favorite - I got distracted by college after Parting of the Ways and missed the entire Tennant run's first airings - so I need to revisit his best stories before the end.

Also need to finish that spec script I was writing in Capaldi's honor, but...one thing at a time.

WhovianGamer said:

I hope there aren't too many boob jokes or jokes about being a female. It wasn't an issue for over 50 years so it shouldn't become a big thing now.

It would be classier for the Doctor to comment on it then move on and just be awesome.

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I honestly would be happy if their are none, The Doctor doesn't even need to acknowledge the change in gender for me and just keep on being the Doctor, it really should be treated as no different to any other regeneration. If there was a companion travelling with him/her at the time then sure have them bring it up but for some reason I can see the Doctor not even batting an eye at it.

I think it would be best/funniest if the Doctor gets through the entire first episode without realizing she's now a woman. Kinda like Matt Smith's Doctor not knowing what he looked like until the end of Eleventh Hour.

Worthintendo said:

The Doctor doesn't even need to acknowledge the change in gender for me and just keep on being the Doctor, it really should be treated as no different to any other regeneration. If there was a companion travelling with him/her at the time then sure have them bring it up but for some reason I can see the Doctor not even batting an eye at it.

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I would be pretty disappointed if there was more than a passing reference to her previous incarnation's gender. She's going to go into this with an entirely new production company, an entirely new supporting cast, and a free hand in how the show works. It should be a complete reset, though there may be oblique references to what previous writers have carefully set up as the essential Time Lord genderfuck.

acheron_xl said:

I'm not a fan of The Christmas Invasion. The Eleventh Hour is very fine though.

All intro eps, ranked:

Power of the Daleks
The Eleventh Hour
Spearhead from Space
Robot
An Unearthly Child
Rose
Castrovalva
Deep Breath
The Christmas Invasion
Time and the Rani
The Twin Dilemma

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I would put Spearhead from Space as #1, but that's just me. I love that serial so much, not even The Eleventh Hour can touch it. Pertwee is too smooth.

Poor Colin Baker was doomed the moment The Twin Dilemma started and he was choking Peri. At least McCoy was able to bounce back.

Vibranium said:

I would put Spearhead from Space as #1, but that's just me. I love that serial so much, not even The Eleventh Hour can touch it. Pertwee is too smooth.

Poor Colin Baker was doomed the moment The Twin Dilemma started and he was choking Peri.

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Spearhead and The Eleventh Hour are a virtual tie for me. I could flip them either way depending on my mood.

Vibranium said:

Poor Colin Baker was doomed the moment The Twin Dilemma started and he was choking Peri.

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It's really a shame, because C. Baker's audios are *so* good. He really had chops to be so great, but they just kind of hobbled him.

LL_Decitrig said:

I would be pretty disappointed if there was more than a passing reference to her previous incarnation's gender. She's going to go into this with an entirely new production company, an entirely new supporting cast, and a free hand in how the show works. It should be a complete reset, though there may be oblique references to what previous writers have carefully set up as the essential Time Lord genderfuck.

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I'm just worried the regeneration episode will just put too much focus on the change of gender and The Doctor trying to get her head around being a woman now. I'd honestly love it if she just carried on as if she was who she always was just the usual post regen change in personality. That said Matt's Doctor did seem alarmed for a second that he could have been a female so there is a precedent kinda, plus the usual checking themselves out and saying what they do and don't like.

I guess I'm just worried about how it'll all be handled, I'm super stocked we have a female Doctor but at the end of the day the Doctor hasn't really been defined by their gender and I don't want a whole episode focusing on the fact that he is now and woman and trying to prove to the world she is still the same and can do all the things the male Doctors could, just give me a fun regen episode inline with The Eleventh Hour or Spearhead and I'll be happy.

Steven Moffat interview thing here : https://www.tvchoicemagazine.co.uk/interviewextra/article//steven-moffat-doctor-who-1

There's an interesting point about who Tom Baker played in Day of the Doctor at the end.

People are immediately going to turn to the bit in the book where Tom Baker makes a cameo as a mysterious curator, in the hope you're going to provide more detail about him. But, presumably, you won't… will you?

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Oh, the possibility that Tom Baker's character in the Day of the Doctor might be the Moment never occurred to me. That's good, I like that. I also like the idea that he could be Doctor Who. So in my head canon (which absolutely doesn't have to make any bloody sense) he's both, and possibly somebody else as well.

The Rani.