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Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,857
Japan
When "lolicon" means "pedophile," it absolutely has to do with sex.

It's frankly not a big part of the game, the fact that so much of the discussion revolves around these minor aspects are kind of sad.

Makes me wish she was covered up so people could actually discuss the god damn game for five minutes without mentioning how big her breasts are. Pyra's a great character and she does a lot of the story so to see people so focused on how her physical appearance affects people kind of annoys me.

And more of then than not it just comes across as a way to dismiss people or the game rather than actual care for how it may or may not contribute to negative or overly sexual views of women in games.

The exact same thing happened with Xeno X and it didnt have any of the low hanging fruit that this game seems to have

This "minor" aspect prevents me from really getting into the game. It's the reason i will sell the game when i complete it. I don't sell games - not even FFXV, which i will likely never play again.
 

Zipzo

Banned
Nov 30, 2017
410
Her arguments get debunked by people who have no interest in hearing what she has to say

Here's a video series I think will help you engage with the topic on a more meaningful level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8XgGhXkTQ
I think your assertion is false, though, with respect.

I am very picky about impartiality in videos. A video of non-stop ragging on Anita just because they think she's some crazy feminist or whatever would be just as undesireable to my ears.

You seem to be immediately dismissing my resources as not-credible purely because you agree with Anita and I think that's rather unfair

Would you be interested in what my resources have to say?
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
When "lolicon" means "pedophile," it absolutely has to do with sex.



This "minor" aspect prevents me from really getting into the game. It's the reason i will sell the game when i complete it. I don't sell games - not even FFXV, which i will likely never play again.

Out of curiosity, how far are you in it?
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,585
You mean tired old gender roles with a cliched treatment of commitment, as well as the occasional transphobic joke?
I mean, he asked for a game where sex is a thing people do opposed to some hallowed experience mentioned in hushed tones and hidden practices. Catherine counts.

Wolfenstein TNO counts.

I think your assertion is false, though, with respect.

I am very picky about impartiality in videos. A video of non-stop ragging on Anita just because they think she's some crazy feminist or whatever would be just as undesireable to my ears.

You seem to be immediately dismissing my resources as not-credible purely because you agree with Anita and I think that's rather unfair

Would you be interested in what my resources have to say?
The "Why are you so angry" series is quite good though.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
I think your assertion is false, though, with respect.

I am very picky about impartiality in videos. A video of non-stop ragging on Anita just because they think she's some crazy feminist or whatever would be just as undesireable to my ears.

You seem to be immediately dismissing my resources as not-credible purely because you agree with Anita and I think that's rather unfair

Would you be interested in what my resources have to say?

Actually I have no relevant opinions on anything Anita has said or done. I'm a guy and I realize that on some level I'm going to participate in what is an inherently indifferent culture to people's individual humanity. That said I do have an opinion on is how I've seen other people's opinions be colored or influenced by the cultural discussion around Anita. I myself have been influenced by it, seeing how the run up through Gamergate played off through various cycles of the internet and its clear to me just how impressionable people are, especially when they're challenged to evolve in any manner. The status quo is far too comfortable.

I can pinpoint the exact moment when it became clear to me what certain perspectives have done to members of that particular movement. I'm sure if you got a neuroscientists to study their brains you'd find some exciting material on how their literal brain structure is being changed by their thoughts.

Please I encourage you to watch all 5 of their videos. They are very good at given some context for how ideas permeate through cultural consciousness and how that reveals itself in specific instances within our own minds.

We can put people in boxes, label them as anything to prevent any real discourse or engaging in their ideas because its inherently uncomfortable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
I think your assertion is false, though, with respect.

I am very picky about impartiality in videos. A video of non-stop ragging on Anita just because they think she's some crazy feminist or whatever would be just as undesireable to my ears.

You seem to be immediately dismissing my resources as not-credible purely because you agree with Anita and I think that's rather unfair

Would you be interested in what my resources have to say?

Considering 99% of the critiques involving Anita are quite bad, it's easy to assume what someone has seen. There's also very little reason to go hard critiquing her, she offers a pretty milquetoast feminist critique with some occasional mistakes. There's not much to get from her content, other than that Youtube anti-feminist ad revenue.

To be honest, in the case of a short 10 minute video, there is no need to watch a critique, you can just watch her video and gauge her points.

I think you previously brought up the Hitman example, from what I have seen that's a really popular criticism of something she said 3+ years ago. Most people seem to think she's improved since then anyways.

Although, I guess I should probably watch the Innuendo Studios videos.
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,040
One thing that really hit me like a hurricane after I finished playing Horizon: Zero Dawn is that Aloy was not sexualized in any way shape or form. And you know what? I actually think the game was stronger for it. As a hetero male, I guess the industry says I have to like women in chainmail bikinis or skin tight cloithes. There are already plenty of games out there like that. It's refreshing to see a strong female character that doesn't rely on her sexuality (I don't think even once in HZD) to reach her goal(s).

I agree but also somewhat disagree, I found Aloy's sexlessness really off putting in the game. By that I mean her complete disinterest in sex and almost offense whenever someone brings it up around her. Creating a positive, non-sexualized female character does not mean removing any and all aspects of sex from them. Otherwise, you are only reinforcing the notion that women can only be taken seriously by repressing any and all sexual desires and/or expression.

Aloy should have been able to express some interest in sex, display some attraction to any other character. Yet, she doesn't and as a result feels like a weird alien.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,403
I agree but also somewhat disagree, I found Aloy's sexlessness really off putting in the game. By that I mean her complete disinterest in sex and almost offense whenever someone brings it up around her. Creating a positive, non-sexualized female character does not mean removing any and all aspects of sex from them. Otherwise, you are only reinforcing the notion that women can only be taken seriously by repressing any and all sexual desires and/or expression.

Aloy should have been able to express some interest in sex, display some attraction to any other character. Yet, she doesn't and as a result feels like a weird alien.
Plenty of male heroes don't have romantic encounters either. I don't think it's weird that she didn't have sexual or romantic encounters, even if I would have liked to see it
Nil the true husbando it is known
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
I agree but also somewhat disagree, I found Aloy's sexlessness really off putting in the game. By that I mean her complete disinterest in sex and almost offense whenever someone brings it up around her. Creating a positive, non-sexualized female character does not mean removing any and all aspects of sex from them. Otherwise, you are only reinforcing the notion that women can only be taken seriously by repressing any and all sexual desires and/or expression.

Aloy should have been able to express some interest in sex, display some attraction to any other character. Yet, she doesn't and as a result feels like a weird alien.

Asexuality is a thing and it's a thing in a character I'd find quite refreshing. I am in fact, not a weird alien.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
Yeah, in the game I'm writing one of our characters is asexual and aromantic but it's not like we're writing it with a statement, "I'm an asexual!" when he is introduced. He is just written without falling for a love interest of any kind. The only clue we're really giving is that an NPC tries really hard to seduce him and he has an overly apathetic reaction to it.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Yeah, in the game I'm writing one of our characters is asexual and aromantic but it's not like we're writing it with a statement, "I'm an asexual!" when he is introduced. He is just written without falling for a love interest of any kind. The only clue we're really giving is that an NPC tries really hard to seduce him and he has an overly apathetic reaction to it.

On one hand, I am tired of the cliche of someone trying to romance someone who clearly isn't interested. On the other hand, this exact scenario has happened to me, and undoubtedly happens to millions of women on a practically daily basis.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
On one hand, I am tired of the cliche of someone trying to romance someone who clearly isn't interested. On the other hand, this exact scenario has happened to me, and undoubtedly happens to millions of women on a practically daily basis.
It's hard to write an asexual character in a medieval setting (since they had no real documented concept of it), and we are still not sure about keeping the scene in, but an asexual character is more for our enjoyment rather than it having any influence on the story. Because most of us on the team are asexuals so he's a bit of a self-insert hahaha
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
I count 6 seconds.

Whether she's well-endowed or not is kinda besides the point on whether it's male gazey or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1-DiBUx2Mw#t=2m25s
I may be making an unfair assumption since I assume this about a lot of anime, but are these characters underage? Because that makes this even worse and indefensible.

That "it's just a couple of seconds!!" defense was made about Made in Abyss too, and I'm like "that's a couple of seconds too many". Can they just, like, NOT? Can they just NOT?
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
It's frankly not a big part of the game, the fact that so much of the discussion revolves around these minor aspects are kind of sad.

Makes me wish she was covered up so people could actually discuss the god damn game for five minutes without mentioning how big her breasts are. Pyra's a great character and she does a lot of the story so to see people so focused on how her physical appearance affects people kind of annoys me.

And more of then than not it just comes across as a way to dismiss people or the game rather than actual care for how it may or may not contribute to negative or overly sexual views of women in games.

The exact same thing happened with Xeno X and it didnt have any of the low hanging fruit that this game seems to have
I'm sorry you're offended by people being rightfully upset.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
I mean the dude is 15 or something, but the girl is an ancient superweapon of indeterminate age? I don't remember the game specifying.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Chapter 4, in a new region.

Ah, yeah, fair warning, Chapter Four is probably the worst chapter in the fanservice/otaku pandering department, especially near the end (though it picks up at the very end). I would recommend you continuing past that point though as I do want to know what your opinions are at the very end as I was pleasantly surprised by the ending but would like a second opinion on that regard.

It's hard to write an asexual character in a medieval setting (since they had no real documented concept of it), and we are still not sure about keeping the scene in, but an asexual character is more for our enjoyment rather than it having any influence on the story. Because most of us on the team are asexuals so he's a bit of a self-insert hahaha

Ah cool. But yeah, nice to see some more asexual characters in games.

I may be making an unfair assumption since I assume this about a lot of anime, but are these characters underage? Because that makes this even worse and indefensible.

That "it's just a couple of seconds!!" defense was made about Made in Abyss too, and I'm like "that's a couple of seconds too many". Can they just, like, NOT? Can they just NOT?

Rex is on the cusp of adulthood but never gives the exact age. I think he's supposed to be 16. Pyra has existed for at least 500 years (you find this out relatively quickly). Though the game does actually gives her dialogue and personality of someone older than what she looks and does it fairly well (at least it's not a loli dragon who acts ridiculously young). It's a bit weird.

But yeah, that screenshot was definitely not necessary.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
I may be making an unfair assumption since I assume this about a lot of anime, but are these characters underage? Because that makes this even worse and indefensible.

That "it's just a couple of seconds!!" defense was made about Made in Abyss too, and I'm like "that's a couple of seconds too many". Can they just, like, NOT? Can they just NOT?

Was Made in Abyss pornographic in anyway? I'm pretty sure they just used standard lewd gag humor, kinda like what was in TTGL, Not sexual at all.

The show seems like a pretty great example of female representation considering how much of the cast is female.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
Was Made in Abyss pornographic in anyway? I'm pretty sure they just used standard lewd gag humor, kinda like what was in TTGL, Not sexual at all.

The show seems like a pretty great example of female representation considering how much of the cast is female.
From what I understand the manga goes to some bad places, and the anime's willingness to show literally a naked kid for even a couple of seconds means it could get even worse with the next season. That was enough to keep me away. I have to draw a line somewhere. I don't care if it's a different culture, or if they have different standards, or whatever. I have my own standards and they're "DON'T DO THAT"
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Was Made in Abyss pornographic in anyway? I'm pretty sure they just used standard lewd gag humor, kinda like what was in TTGL, Not sexual at all.

The show seems like a pretty great example of female representation considering how much of the cast is female.

It was toned down in the anime, but the manga definitely goes much further with sexualizing Riko and the most recent chapter was pretty much softcore tentacle hentai.

It's gonna be weird seeing Made in Abyss take AOTY this year.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,020
Straight up can't recommend Made in Abyss to people due to the shit it pulled.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,026
MiA manga was definitely a surprise in the worst way possible to say the least after what I recall being a relatively tame anime. I did end up reading it until the latest chapter a couple of months ago, but I doubt I'll ever return to it.

[...] the most recent chapter was pretty much softcore tentacle hentai.

Which is clearly a good decision lol. Why spend time reading something that weirds you the fuck out, after all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
lmao a guy recommended it to me a couple of days ago and the moment the words "little girl" left his mouth I was like nope, probably gonna be some creepy shit. I guess my instincts didn't betray me.

Anime can have little girls and be totally fine and innocent. Off the top of my head, Usagi Drop is great.

But yeah, Made in Abyss certainly has some stuff in it. It's a shame because it's extremely well made and unique. Excellent art, excellent music, excellent direction, excellent atmosphere; it's just that ONE aspect that brings the whole thing down for a lot of people.

I'd still recommend people watch Eyepatch Wolf's video on it if they're interested.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,020
lmao a guy recommended it to me a couple of days ago and the moment the words "little girl" left his mouth I was like nope, probably gonna be some creepy shit. I guess my instincts didn't betray me.

They certainly did not.

Meanwhile I jumped the gun and caught up in the hype of the first episode, which left a good first impression, so I recommended it to my friends very early on. Talk about an awkward conversation...

What probably annoyed me most is that it tries to be slick about it too at times.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
Anime can have little girls and be totally fine and innocent. Off the top of my head, Usagi Drop is great.

But yeah, Made in Abyss certainly has some stuff in it. It's a shame because it's extremely well made and unique. Excellent art, excellent music, excellent direction, excellent atmosphere; it's just that ONE aspect that brings the whole thing down for a lot of people.

I'd still recommend people watch Eyepatch Wolf's video on it if they're interested.
Usagi Drop is great..... THE ANIME, that is. The manga has a really terrible ending, like. Really really terrible.

If you want an anime that has kids in it that are adorable rather than, well, ANIME, y'all should watch Barakamon. One of my favorite healing animes and a fun comedy to boot.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
I may be making an unfair assumption since I assume this about a lot of anime, but are these characters underage? Because that makes this even worse and indefensible.

That "it's just a couple of seconds!!" defense was made about Made in Abyss too, and I'm like "that's a couple of seconds too many". Can they just, like, NOT? Can they just NOT?

this reminds me some years ago when Alien 9 anime and manga became popular. It had gruesome moments but torture was mostly psychological, making an allegory of girls entering adolescence. Manga author mentions some western scifi authors that influenced him. His expertise is industrial design, so some designs like the alien drills look harrowing. Whole scenery is nightmare fuel basically.
Manga author liked the anime adaptation actually, that had aspects of the girls not existing in the manga, like going to summer vacation together. Unfortunately OVA was left incomplete.

Despite the SD art style it was very well written,animated and directed.

Author made another similar manga with kids titled Milk Closet, which is even more shocking, bizarre and extreme. One reason Alien 9 remains my favorite work of sci-fi of that sort.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Okay, I've googled some stuff about Made in Abyss to see what's really going on with it because I hate myself and, uhhh... is this a popular anime?
 

DVCY201

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,166
It's very questionable at some parts of the show, the manga makes it even worse.
Knowing the background of the author, it's not surprising.
What's the background?

I actually wanted to watch it after hearing all the praise for it, but seeing what others have to say about it, I might skip it altogether.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Okay, I've googled some stuff about Made in Abyss to see what's really going on with it because I hate myself and, uhhh... is this a popular anime?

It's a contender for anime of the year in a lot of places including IGN and will likely be in the top 3 here on Era whenever the AOTY thread goes up. I wouldn't be surprised if it got number 1, though something like Land of the Lustrous or Rakugo may win instead.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,857
Japan
I am watching Psycho Pass, the first anime I've seen in over a decade, because it's on Netflix. Surprisingly engaging, though silly at times.
 

Bricks

Member
Nov 6, 2017
622
I have! Are you referring to Shev and Javre? :D They are soooo amazing <3

I was referring to Javre more than Shev. The Lioness is great in her own right, while I'm not sure if Shev could carry a story all on her own. The dynamic between the two is gold, though.

I am watching Psycho Pass, the first anime I've seen in over a decade, because it's on Netflix. Surprisingly engaging, though silly at times.

Good stuff. However, avoid the second season at all cost.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,040
Plenty of male heroes don't have romantic encounters either. I don't think it's weird that she didn't have sexual or romantic encounters, even if I would have liked to see it
Nil the true husbando it is known

I don't mean that she needs a full romantic interest, but rather some display of interest in sex, especially when others around her are discussing it. It just comes off as weird to me for this young girl, whom puberty is probably be raging through her, is so detached from certain basic human emotions. Honestly, I'm trying to think of a male hero, especially in an RPG, that doesn't have either a number of romantic interests or at least display interest in sex. And, I can't think of any off the top of my head.
 

Zipzo

Banned
Nov 30, 2017
410
Considering 99% of the critiques involving Anita are quite bad, it's easy to assume what someone has seen. There's also very little reason to go hard critiquing her, she offers a pretty milquetoast feminist critique with some occasional mistakes. There's not much to get from her content, other than that Youtube anti-feminist ad revenue.

To be honest, in the case of a short 10 minute video, there is no need to watch a critique, you can just watch her video and gauge her points.

I think you previously brought up the Hitman example, from what I have seen that's a really popular criticism of something she said 3+ years ago. Most people seem to think she's improved since then anyways.

Although, I guess I should probably watch the Innuendo Studios videos.
I wouldn't even necessarily call what I've seen "critiques". More objective evaluations of the material she presents. As in, not opinions, just comparing the examples she invokes, with reality.

Is it really fair to say that anything she said in the past should have absolutely no influence on how anybody feels about the validity of her opinion? How many mistakes can a speaker make before them speaking becomes superfluous? What I gauge from this sort of sentiment is that, if she was wrong, then she made a mistake and everyone makes mistakes, and/or it's been a while since she was wrong so maybe she knows better now. You can basically excuse anything with that kind of coverage.

I don't find either of these to be very convincing arguments about how she thinks or feels about a thing. I base my idea of how she feels based on her actual content, and that's exactly where my opinions on her opinions come from. Please don't assume that I've come to any rushed conclusions based only on videos purely meant to degrade or attack feminism, and/or be troll-ish and inflammatory.

IMO, she is not the hero feminism needs in the video game industry. She's not open to dialogue, and therefore alienates those she should be attempting to convince.

That being said, Anita cannot really be relevant to the discussion of a "solution" towards fixing "sexual objectification", since she herself offers no solution and so there's nothing really to discuss other than the validity of her perspective on the games she criticizes. Any solution that can assumed from her criticisms (like, do the reverse of what she criticizes) doesn't really hold up because the reality is much more complicated, and the answers are not black and white.

For example, me. I don't have an issue with sexy ladies in games. I also don't have an issue with sexy ladies in games that other women may have a problem with, such as Quiet. Therefore it's unlikely my spending habits will change, and I will continue to purchase games that could potentially have characters like Quiet, and thus, I become the natural enemy of those who want to "fight" objectification in video games, but it's only because I don't see it as objectification, rather, I disagree with their perspective. Short of special sector of video games developed solely for females, I'm just not sure how their goals are to be achieved. I stand by women against sexism, but once you bring the "in video games" modifier in to it, things just get way too muddy an inconsequential for my taste.

This could also lead in to a presumed criticism of my character. Maybe I'm a misogynist on the inside. However, if I make it all the way through life, treating everyone around me with respect, my wife, women around, all the way until I die without involving myself in one situation that could define me as one...does it really matter that I like a little sexy lady-stuff in games? Does it really even matter at that point if I'm unknowingly sexist by those definitions? I'm inclined to think...that it doesn't. I know how people should be treated, and I treat them that way, my inherent thoughts influenced by media are irrelevant.
 
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