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PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,425
Australia
Apology accepted. I apologize for insulting you.

Now in answer to your stated assumption, it's been twelve years. In the name of pity, please stop sniping at an actor who has repeatedly and clearly asked not to be approached about his former role in the show. It gives fandoms a really terrible name when they do this.

Hardly "sniping". Being disappointed is a long way from being malicious, and I don't see how it's out of line here or anywhere else.

I won't stop being disappointed at Chris's avoidance of Who until he stops avoiding it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to harass him in the streets or write angry blogs about it.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,866
Started my Capaldi farewell tour last night. I actually find it fascinating how many times they foreshadow the end of Hell Bent throughout the season. I remember thinking immortal Clara was an ass-pull when I saw the episode originally, but the season actually seeds it almost every single episode in some way.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261


This new behind the scenes clip they released has shots of the script read-through... Are there any people from the new production team besides Chibnall?
 

Mario's Nipples

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
856
France
I find it truly amazing how attached we, as individuals, become attached to the Doctor. Or, in particular, a specific Doctor. For me, I found it incredibly difficult to let go of Matt Smith as the Doctor. He brought a sense of charm and charisma to the character that had not been seen before. I was bawling my eyes out in the Christmas special, then again with his cameo in Deep Breath.

Saying goodbye to Capaldi will not be as hard for me, but will still be tough. Like Smith, he bought a new personality to the Doctor that has not been seen before - a darker, mature Doctor. He has had some truly amazing episodes. His showstopper, for me, is Hell Bent. Purely Doctor-centric, and he carries it spectacularly. I daresay I'll shed a tear (or twelve) when he finally regenerates.

I'm really excited to see what Jodie can bring to the table. I'm already in love with her costume and new TARDIS exterior. I just wonder what kind of Doctor she'll be. Next year is going to be very exciting.
 

BrokenFiction

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
ATL
Yes! That's the thing - I guess I'd consider Eccleston to be my Doctor, because that's where I came in.
Then David Tennant arrived, and I loved him more. He became my Doctor.
Then Matt Smith arrived, and I loved him more than that. This is when my wife started watching and he was her Doctor, so we shared him.
THEN...Peter Capaldi. I saw Deep Breath in the theater for him. It's a controversial origin episode, but I love it all the same. Peter is so amazing - he's now my Doctor.

I really have no doubt that I'll love Jodie just as much or more, and she'll fill those shoes. Because that's the way it goes for me. I'm with them all, because to me they're all the Doctor.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
On to S9 of my Capaldi marathon.

10. Last Christmas
A mashup of Alien, The Thing, and Inception that wears its influences on sleeves ("There's a horror movie called 'Alien'? No wonder you're getting invaded all the time.") and they gel together pretty well. This story serves as a nice coda to not just Dark Water/Death in Heaven, but the Doctor and Clara's increasingly complicated and toxic relationship running all throughout Series 8. The ending is a bittersweet one: on the surface, it's the Doctor and Clara, back together again, running through time and space and having a good time... but it's a happy ending that comes with the both of them realizing, quite desperately, that they need each other and can't get on without the other one. Nick Frost is a lot of fun as Santa, and Dream Danny is probably the version of him I like the most.

11-12. The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar
I remember being a big fan of these episodes when they first aired, but I'm feeling a lot cooler on them the second time around. There's a lot of good stuff here, especially in The Witch's Familiar: the child Davros reveal, the Doctor mucking around in Davros' chair, and the Doctor and Davros' conversations, which I thought were genuinely gripping. But Missy feels just too over-the-top here, and Moffat does that thing he often does, where he oversells the Doctor in such a hyperbolic way: the Doctor at his most desperate, the Doctor at his most dangerous, the Doctor is going to destroy you all, the Doctor will die tomorrow, etc. Moffat plays this card so much that at this point it doesn't feel at all like a genuine threat anymore. I liked Clara in the Dalek suit, though seemed like a missed opportunity not to acknowledge Oswin in some way.

13-14. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
The first part is pretty meh, but the second episode -- particularly the entire scene in the Black Archive, where the Doctor is practically pleading with ZygonClara not to pointlessly sacrifice her people in a useless war -- features some of Moffat's finest writing. Just a lot of strong character beats in this one, and the Doctor's final arguments with ZygonClara ranks among Capaldi's best performances on the show.

15. Face the Raven
The murder-mystery story and the mechanics of the chronolock are pretty convoluted, but it's worth it just for the ending. The Doctor is truly shaken when he realizes Clara is dying and he can't do anything about it, and Capaldi exhibits a perfectly restrained mix of anger and grief when she makes him swear not to take revenge because it's going to a create a lot of suffering for a lot of people (and the Doctor can only meekly respond with, 'But what about me?'). Even knowing how the rest of this story goes, it's a great ending that is, as is usually the case with the best moments of S8 and 9, carried entirely by the strength of Capaldi and Coleman's performances, who are never better than when they're playing off of each other like this.
 
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,866
I was honestly so tired of Matt by the time he left. I don't blame him per se as much as I blame Moffat's ever-changing interpretation of Eleven, though. I was just bored and ready for something new.

Capaldi is different. Because of my complicated history with the reboot show, he's actually he first new Doctor I was here for when he was revealed and will be here for when he left. I'm probably not going to have a Doctor I connect with this personally in a long time.

It's gonna be a tough Christmas.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Blader, I really enjoy your restrospective

I'll say this about Face the Raven-- plotwise I really didn't care for it much, but The Doctor and Clara are so well-acted that it's still quite the experience. I didn't like Clara much as a character in terms of her importance, but I did like the whole danger-addict aspect, and Jenna Coleman is a pretty great actor. And Capaldi is excellent, as you note.

On the whole, I really liked S9 more on rewatch when my kids started getting into the show.
 

BrokenFiction

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
ATL
Shit I just looked at the calendar and it's in one week.

iOGyzZt.gif
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
Shit I just looked at the calendar and it's in one week.

somehow, I've committed to rewatching a bunch of Hartnells ending with The Tenth Planet AND rewatching Season 10 (up to ep 6) by next week. Will be out of the UK so I'll have to wait until Boxing Day to see it. A 25 hour plane trip will probably see me through

One thing that's apparent is that on the Hartnell stories, just how important the role of Director was in a multicamera studio, even in the 60s. Richard Martin-directed ones like the latter episodes of The Daleks, Dalek Invasion of Earth, etc look so sloppy compared to those directed by Christopher Barry or Dougas Camfield. The camera cuts are tighter, the acting also somehow better.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
Blader, I really enjoy your restrospective

I'll say this about Face the Raven-- plotwise I really didn't care for it much, but The Doctor and Clara are so well-acted that it's still quite the experience. I didn't like Clara much as a character in terms of her importance, but I did like the whole danger-addict aspect, and Jenna Coleman is a pretty great actor. And Capaldi is excellent, as you note.

On the whole, I really liked S9 more on rewatch when my kids started getting into the show.
I think I'm having the opposite reaction, where I'm not liking S9 quite as much as I did when it first aired but am loving Series 8 a lot more. Not that I hadn't like many of those episodes before, but there's a lot of strong Doctor/Clara stuff that is deeper and more resonant than I remember it being. I also have a new appreciation for how acidic Capaldi's Doctor was in that first year, which was a slight turnoff at the time but now something I appreciate a lot more in the bigger context of how Twelve changes over the course of his run.
 

EvilRedEye

Member
Oct 29, 2017
747
Interesting tidbit in Vortex magazine - Nicholas Briggs reckons Chris Chibnall's never listened to a Big Finish.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Is it mandatory that he does? I mean, are the Big Finish stories considered canon?
Canon and Doctor Who... It's a murky subject. Generally speaking only the TV show's stories are 100% canon. But even then there's room to rewrite all sorts of things.

I mean the TV movie is technically canon, but no one's taking that whole half human half Time Lord nonsense seriously. Some even argued that while the Night of the Doctor canonizes 8's Big Finish companions, we shouldn't automatically accept all his stories as canon, only that he traveled with people that have the same names.

So, anyway, I think so long as he's well-versed in the TV show, then it's enough. But it is a bit odd to be hardcore enough to wanna run the show but still ignore a lot of connected material
 

Mario's Nipples

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
856
France
Obviously not, though some of 8's companions became canon thanks to Moffat. I guess the implication is that Chibnall isn't especially hardcore about Who? Cause much of the hardcore listen to Big Finish, I'd imagine.
The way I see it, Thirteen is a soft reboot for Doctor Who. There will obviously be some lore that remains, but I imagine Chibnall has a clean slate as it were to make the show his own. With the new Doctor being female, we are entering a brand new, unknown generation.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
Is it mandatory that he does? I mean, are the Big Finish stories considered canon?

It's definitely not mandatory, though it is fairly interesting, since he'll be the first show-runner we've had since 2005 who isn't that hardcore. That can work both ways, for better and for worse.

The one thing it'll stop is that Moffat and RTD both recycled a fair few ideas from Big Finish. There are quite a few stories from their era that are based on or harvest ideas from Big Finish stories they liked, and in some instances, like Dalek, entire episodes are literally adaptations of Big Finish stories. Same for the Virgin New Adventures novels - I forget the name of the pub, but there was some pub in London near that publisher where Moffat, RTD, Paul Cornell, Mark Gatiss, Matt Jones (The Impossible Planet), Nick Briggs etc etc used to hang out, and of course many of that group went on to have a huge part in the revived version of the show - and of course Lawrence Miles, part of that group but also a bit of a tit, never forgave RTD or Moffat for never inviting him to write for it.

So, it doesn't matter at all - no doubt somebody from BBC Worldwide will be keeping him appraised of the plot lines in BF to avoid crossover, and hopefully Capaldi's departure means we are now two eras removed and Briggs can pick up the phone to Matt Smith. What's more interesting, broadly, is that we're getting our first show runner who comes from outside that Doctor Who supergeek world, from outside the group of people who still lived and breathed the show when it was off the air in the 90s. That's interesting, as it's sure to mark a tonal shift, innit.
 

zeroshiki

Member
Oct 26, 2017
414
Blader, I really enjoy your restrospective

I'll say this about Face the Raven-- plotwise I really didn't care for it much, but The Doctor and Clara are so well-acted that it's still quite the experience. I didn't like Clara much as a character in terms of her importance, but I did like the whole danger-addict aspect, and Jenna Coleman is a pretty great actor. And Capaldi is excellent, as you note.

On the whole, I really liked S9 more on rewatch when my kids started getting into the show.

I originally hated it because I thought it was a really stupid way for Clara's time as a companion to end. She was reckless, yes, but I couldn't accept that they going to end her life with such a whimper. I thought seeing the Doctor so upset was incredible though.

The Doctor: But you can. Fix this. Fix it now.

Me: It... It's not possible. I... I can't.

The Doctor: Yes it is, you can, and you will, or this street will be over. I'll show you and all your funny little friends to the whole laughing world. I'll bring UNIT, I'll bring the Zygons. Give me a minute, I'll bring the Daleks and the Cybermen. *You* will save Clara, and you will do it *now*, or I will rain hell on you for the rest of time.

Clara: Doctor, stop talking like that.

Me: You can't.

The Doctor: I can do whatever the hell I like. You've read the stories, you know who I am. And in all of that time, did you ever hear anything about anyone who stopped me?

Me: I know the Doctor. The Doctor would never...

The Doctor: *The Doctor is no longer here! You are stuck with me.* And I will end you, and everything you love.

Clara: Doctor, for God's sake, will you stop!

The Doctor: *No!*

Clara: I did this. Do you hear me? I did this. This is my fault!

The Doctor: I don't care!

Clara: Liar. You always care. Always have. Your reign of terror will end with the sight of the first crying child and you know it.

The Doctor: No, I don't.

Clara: I do.

Chills.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
It's definitely not mandatory, though it is fairly interesting, since he'll be the first show-runner we've had since 2005 who isn't that hardcore. That can work both ways, for better and for worse.

The one thing it'll stop is that Moffat and RTD both recycled a fair few ideas from Big Finish. There are quite a few stories from their era that are based on or harvest ideas from Big Finish stories they liked, and in some instances, like Dalek, entire episodes are literally adaptations of Big Finish stories. Same for the Virgin New Adventures novels - I forget the name of the pub, but there was some pub in London near that publisher where Moffat, RTD, Paul Cornell, Mark Gatiss, Matt Jones (The Impossible Planet), Nick Briggs etc etc used to hang out, and of course many of that group went on to have a huge part in the revived version of the show - and of course Lawrence Miles, part of that group but also a bit of a tit, never forgave RTD or Moffat for never inviting him to write for it.

So, it doesn't matter at all - no doubt somebody from BBC Worldwide will be keeping him appraised of the plot lines in BF to avoid crossover, and hopefully Capaldi's departure means we are now two eras removed and Briggs can pick up the phone to Matt Smith. What's more interesting, broadly, is that we're getting our first show runner who comes from outside that Doctor Who supergeek world, from outside the group of people who still lived and breathed the show when it was off the air in the 90s. That's interesting, as it's sure to mark a tonal shift, innit.

You mean 'The Tavern' where all the superfans met up and bitched about each other? Used to get mentioned, both derisively and with awe in things like 90s DWB or the old Restoration Team forum. Chibnall not being a part of that doesn't disqualify him as a superfan (in my view), nor does not listening to Big Finish. I consider myself a big Who fan, but I don't like to get invested in stuff that's non-canon and for me, that's always anything that's not part of the televised show. So I've never listened to a Big Finish thing even though I like radio plays, would love to hear more from the classic Doctors, etc.

I'm just a fan who's never found the time. A busy TV writer and producer is not likely to ever have time to sit down to listen to a radio play (let alone the hundreds of hours BF have put out).

That said, If they animated them like Power of the Daleks/Moonbase/Invasion/Shada, then I'd probably watch them.

also, if someone wants to post that clip of Chibnall appearing on TV complaining about Sylvester McCoy's first season, that might put paid to the notions that he's not a fan. I've only ever seen the stuff he's written for Nu Who (no Broadchurch or Torchwood) so I have no idea whether he's going to be a good showrunner of Who.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
I originally hated it because I thought it was a really stupid way for Clara's time as a companion to end. She was reckless, yes, but I couldn't accept that they going to end her life with such a whimper. I thought seeing the Doctor so upset was incredible though.



Chills.
I must've rewound that "The Doctor is no longer here!" line 10 or 15 times the first time I was watching the episode.
It's a perfect Capaldi moment because I don't think any other Doctor could have sold their willingness to do ruthless vengeance quite as convincingly.

You mean 'The Tavern' where all the superfans met up and bitched about each other? Used to get mentioned, both derisively and with awe in things like 90s DWB or the old Restoration Team forum. Chibnall not being a part of that doesn't disqualify him as a superfan (in my view), nor does not listening to Big Finish.
Yup. There's also the fact that he's not doing it on his own. The other writers, the script editors, producers, etc, will cover any possible blind-spots in his knowledge of the Who "extended universe."

Him having a different relationship to the show compared to RTD and Moffat might prove a lot more valuable in his showrunning stint.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
You mean 'The Tavern' where all the superfans met up and bitched about each other? Used to get mentioned, both derisively and with awe in things like 90s DWB or the old Restoration Team forum. Chibnall not being a part of that doesn't disqualify him as a superfan (in my view), nor does not listening to Big Finish. I consider myself a big Who fan, but I don't like to get invested in stuff that's non-canon and for me, that's always anything that's not part of the televised show. So I've never listened to a Big Finish thing even though I like radio plays, would love to hear more from the classic Doctors, etc.

I'm just a fan who's never found the time. A busy TV writer and producer is not likely to ever have time to sit down to listen to a radio play (let alone the hundreds of hours BF have put out).

That said, If they animated them like Power of the Daleks/Moonbase/Invasion/Shada, then I'd probably watch them.

also, if someone wants to post that clip of Chibnall appearing on TV complaining about Sylvester McCoy's first season, that might put paid to the notions that he's not a fan. I've only ever seen the stuff he's written for Nu Who (no Broadchurch or Torchwood) so I have no idea whether he's going to be a good showrunner of Who.

I don't for a second think he's not a fan, I just think he's probably a different class of fan to Moffat and RTD, who both sort of fell into the breathless 'knows every bit of the lore' and 'never accepted the show being off-air' superfan category. I think that's arguably worked against them as much as for them, so I'm excited to see something different.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
i'm treating this in two ways. One a great blow out ep with the 12th and 1st Doctors (though it is a Christmas special) and secondly the tiny glimpse of Dr Jodie at the end.

If she's keeping her Yorkshire accent, her first words better be "There's trouble at pit."
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
If she's keeping her Yorkshire accent, her first words better be "There's trouble at pit."
People who were at the filming where we got those pictures of her in Capaldi's costume say she's keeping her accent.

I wish we'd get a longer scene with her than it is customary... August 2018 or whenever s11 is supposed to come out is way too far out.
 

Mario's Nipples

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
856
France
I'm hoping for at least two or three minutes of on-screen time for Thirteen, with at least some interaction between her and Bill.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
I know Bill isn't going to be in the next season, but she will have to say goodbye (again!) to the Doctor at some point in this episode.

Chibs is unlikely to want to write for a companion he's never written for in his first scene, though, surely? I strongly suspect the final scene will be very End of Time-ish - some fevered monologuing into a landing or a crash.

I have this theory that the Doctor might never get to say goodbye to Bill - like she might leave him when he's unconscious, and then when he wakes up and finally begins to regenerate she's gone. Will Clara show up? Hmmm...

RE set reports, god, does anyone remember the most idiotic wing of the fanbase freaking out about the captured-from-a-distance audio of Matt Smith in block 1 of series 5? It was that shouty "I am the Doctor and you are the Daleks" speech, and Outpost Gallifrey was on fire with fury. "He doesn't know how to say Dalek!!!" Hahaha. Amazing times. Everything seems much calmer around Jodie's set reports...
 

Fuu

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
Chances for Clara to show up? Her character "left" so many times that I wouldn't mind if she showed up again, and it's a bummer to me if 12 regenerates not knowing about her, especially because they foreshadowed him remembering her in a few spots (Class, etc).
 

BrokenFiction

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
ATL
Chances for Clara to show up? Her character "left" so many times that I wouldn't mind if she showed up again, and it's a bummer to me if 12 regenerates not knowing about her, especially because they foreshadowed him remembering her in a few spots (Class, etc).

I was kind of assuming it, as a farewell wave.
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,663
USA
I don't want it to be this way but I am guessing that Bill leaves before 12 regenerates, maybe she decides she doesn't want to see him as someone else or something like that, and then the 12th doctor hallucinates Clara right before regeneration.

I'm not a fan of reusing the same hallucination stuff they did with Amy when 11 regenerated but I'm not sure how else they would bring Clara in.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Chances for Clara to show up? Her character "left" so many times that I wouldn't mind if she showed up again, and it's a bummer to me if 12 regenerates not knowing about her, especially because they foreshadowed him remembering her in a few spots (Class, etc).
I go back and forth on how much I expect and how much I want from a Clara appearance in this... For the most part I expect something like the Amy visions with 11. Something about her memory fully recovered in his brain.
But, technically, it's also possible she'd appear for real considering she's technically still alive and hasn't returned to Gallifrey to die for good. Though that would be more difficult to fit in and can be really clunky.

I don't think Moffat would be able to resist bringing her back in some capacity, it makes total sense. But as satisfying as that "Raggedy man, good night" was, I might be more satisfied if they make the decision of not bringing her back at all. I'd really respect them going yeah this is the end of an era, but it doesn't mean we have to bring back people.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
I wasn't a big fan of the Amy/Amelia reappearance right before Eleven regenerated. It was a sweet moment in a vacuum, but the way it was inserted was bizarre since Clara was just standing right there. And I'd hate to see a similar Clara cameo give Bill short shrift.

Maybe they could have Twelve and Bill say their goodbyes first, then when the Doctor is alone, ready to regenerate, Clara appears.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,866
I think it's pretty imperative that they at the very least bookend the 12/Clara relationship now that we know he remembers her. A tiny cameo, even just the two of them encountering each other one last time before they spiral off across the universe to see each other, would be worth it. I don't think they have enough time in the episode to do the return to Gallifrey, though - if they did, the appearance would've leaked by now. But a tiny little one-minute cameo? Bring it, Moff.

Of course, I'm biased.
 

Broken Joystick

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,932
England
Chances for Clara to show up? Her character "left" so many times that I wouldn't mind if she showed up again, and it's a bummer to me if 12 regenerates not knowing about her, especially because they foreshadowed him remembering her in a few spots (Class, etc).
Sort of spinning off from this, chances we see Capaldi (and possibly first Doctor) helping out in Day of the Doctor from their perspectives? Not that I think it's imperative, but I feel like it's a Moffat thing to do.

But then he's juggling Capaldi goodbye, Hartnell semi-goodbye, Bill, possibly Clara, and 50th shenanigans.

Edit: I'm almost certain Clara makes an appearance.
 

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
684
Prediction: The Doctor, after the final climatic battle, is on the verge of death and far away from home. He collapses and passes out and then wakes up in his TARDIS where Clara is standing over him. The two have an emotional conversation where the Doctor reveals he never truly forgot her. He begs her to stay with him, knowing this is the end, but she states that she has her own death to face, implying that she is finally returning to Gallifrey herself in order to die.

Bonus prediction: Her final line is some joke about the Doctor 'making it a good one this time' and something like 'maybe not so old and male' so that Moffat can make one final troll move of having Clara be the one to coax the Doctor into changing gender.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
Prediction: The Doctor, after the final climatic battle, is on the verge of death and far away from home. He collapses and passes out and then wakes up in his TARDIS where Clara is standing over him. The two have an emotional conversation where the Doctor reveals he never truly forgot her. He begs her to stay with him, knowing this is the end, but she states that she has her own death to face, implying that she is finally returning to Gallifrey herself in order to die.

Bonus prediction: Her final line is some joke about the Doctor 'making it a good one this time' and something like 'maybe not so old and male' so that Moffat can make one final troll move of having Clara be the one to coax the Doctor into changing gender.

Or the Doctor regenerates into Clara. Clara then goes off to face the raven and regenerates into Jodie.
 

zeroshiki

Member
Oct 26, 2017
414
I hope they don't do a Clara hallucination. If Clara's appearing to say goodbye to Twelve, it should be the Clara in the diner flying around. I mean, she's already there! Have her come say a goodbye to the doctor with some quips about how she didn't like how he looked the first time and then they both go and meet their ends. I think Moffat will want to finish Clara's story on his own terms so even if they don't show Gallifrey or Diagon Alley, he will want to imply that Clara is heading towards there at the end.