Sonic the Hedgehog Community |OT| There’s no end to this franchise!

I am half with you and half not, but my main point of contention will always be lumping Adventure 1 and 2 together. They have some things in common, but I wouldn't argue much more than, say, Unleashed and Generations. Adventure is my favorite Sonic game altogether and Adventure 2 is one of my least favorites because of the vast difference in functional execution of tone, storytelling, gameplay mechanics, level design, and visuals between the two.

Adventure 2 has, on paper, many of the same features as it's predecessor but in the act of actually playing the game it doesn't look like Adventure, doesn't sound like Adventure, and doesn't feel like Adventure. Which depending on who you talk to could be great and could be terrible. I'm a big Adventure fanboy though so my perspective on that is probably more polarized than most.

But at the end of the day opinions are opinions and I respect you going to bat for the stuff you care about. We need more of that kind of deeper analysis of these games now that the fanbase is starting to skew older.

Redhead On Moped said:

The English is not the best, and due to various translations, she seems to be ashamed of her flat chest, as well as the fire, which is why she was supposed to wear the cape, but will throw it when "push comes to shove"

Also, they actually mentioned Trunks from DBZ.

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Haha, gross. "Hey, the cool woman that's the alternate universe's version of Sonic and Knuckles is back with this rad new design. Except the cool cape is only because of dumb anime shit about her boobs."

Redhead On Moped said:

The English is not the best, and due to various translations, she seems to be ashamed of her flat chest, as well as the fire, which is why she was supposed to wear the cape, but will throw it when "push comes to shove"

Also, they actually mentioned Trunks from DBZ.

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I mean, even with that translation those are separate statements. The cape has to do with her powers, not her chest.

Thankfully they just did away with both.

Someone posted this art earlier. My first thought was why the hell is Muttski on a leash?

It's amazing how different things post Super Genesis Wave were...

Man I totally forgot Sonic had a normal ass real life looking dog in the comics. I'm glad they retconned that in the reboot.

The most annoying thing in the world just happened. I'm struggling through Titanic Monarch, an extremely long, ardous, 20 minute level, I timed out in act one but made it through, then I'm going through act two which is an even longer level, and just as I'm getting close to the end, I time out, but what happens this time? The game fucking freezes and stays perpetually at the 9:59 mark while the music plays. I had to turn off my Switch and everything. Now I have to do it, both acts, all over again. All of that, for nothing.

Yes I'm mad.

Titanic Monarch is one of my least favorite levels from a Sonic game. From the visuals to the music. It just feels off.

The cyan background is garish, the level design is agonizingly linear, the bosses suck, and I keep meaning to swap its music out with Panic Puppet Saturn.

</things I meant to write in August>

The idea of trying to deliver a BIG and somewhat confusing level in a game with a ten minute time limit was shaky back in Sonic 3 and it still is now.
Though I feel they knew what they were doing here, like the challenge is in not screwing up so much as to time out.

TM is okay, I mean it's not like other endgame 2D Sonic stages offer much to champion.

Metallic Madness was a fuckin mess, Metropolis Zone is Metropolis Zone, Scrap Brain is boring...

Yeah final 2D stages are pretty wack.

Advance final stages were garbo too!

The most annoying thing in Titanic Monarch to me is the frequency of those poles Sonic swings on, just to look cool and slow you down. I know it's tired to criticize Mania for being "fan gamey" but that one little thing is very fan gamey

Also: the bonus stage orbs just aren't fun or interesting enough to work as a gimmick for a whole level.

Titanic Monarch 2 is one Kirby-ass final level and I'm still not quite sure why. Maybe they really wanted to make the Phantom Ruby have active effects in at least one level, but the way it was implemented led to more public frustration than anything. I personally never time-over'd in TM but it's definitely a level you have to learn to give yourself up to compared to most others. If the Act 2 portals reset your time as well as position then it would probably have gone over a bit better, but at the end of the day it's probably better in concept than what it is now. I do dig the music overall though, even if visually (and honestly, in gameplay at times) the level reminded me more of something out of Spark the Electric Jester than Sonic.


Anyway shoutouts to Pirate Island for being the most laid back final stage ever.

Titanic Monarch >> other Genesis final levels dont @ me

ViewtifulJC said:

Titanic Monarch >> other Genesis final levels dont @ me

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Yeah I loved Titanic Monarch. I do wish Mania had just killed the 10 minute time limit completely though. It's completely pointless and just kind of annoying.

never understood the 10 minutes til death thing. Thats one Genesis tradition that could've stayed in the past.

Professor Beef said:

probably because they didn't expect people to wanna stop and smell the roses in every goddamned act

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So you're saying, you gotta go fast?

Damn, how do I play Sonic?!

Sami said:

Yeah I loved Titanic Monarch. I do wish Mania had just killed the 10 minute time limit completely though. It's completely pointless and just kind of annoying.

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It actually never annoyed me until Titanic Monarch, weirdly enough. Titanic Monarch as a whole is dope though, probably the only other final level aside from Death Egg that I can stand in the series. That said, yeah, I could do without it.

Flying Battery Act 2 was the only other Mania level I nearly timed out on, weirdly enough.

I'd like Death Egg but it's home to the one section that actually trips me up a fair bit on Act 2, that big seesaw like bridge doodad over the bottomless pit, and if you bungle that the last checkpoint puts you on the upside down conveyor platform with no rings, to this day I never quite got how Sonic's movement was affected by that thing.

Professor Beef said:

i quit the series after sonic 1 because i couldn't hold right to win :(

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Marble Zone ruins everything once again.

allenpergallon said:

Anyway shoutouts to Pirate Island for being the most laid back final stage ever.

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Pirates' Island was such a fun level to speedrun

EDIT: Goddamn, just popped SRA back in the DSi, it was immediately just as fun as I remembered it. Felt like second nature. No wonder I S-ranked every level (except the Ghost Whale in Blizzard Peaks, lol)

detuned radios said:

The most annoying thing in Titanic Monarch to me is the frequency of those poles Sonic swings on, just to look cool and slow you down. I know it's tired to criticize Mania for being "fan gamey" but that one little thing is very fan gamey

Also: the bonus stage orbs just aren't fun or interesting enough to work as a gimmick for a whole level.

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No it's fair to criticize Mania as a fan game because that's exactly what Mania is at its core and the final level just reeks of that as it is just not that fun to play at all.

ViewtifulJC said:

Titanic Monarch >> other Genesis final levels dont @ me

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Nah other mega Drive Sonic levels don't make you do those stupid spherical orb, that should have stayed in bonus levels, overstay their welcome or reset the timer just before the boss fight.

ViewtifulJC said:

never understood the 10 minutes til death thing. Thats one Genesis tradition that could've stayed in the past.

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Same reason why they didn't think to include a button to transform into Super Sonic till after launch, because they were trying to be faithful to the original mega drive Sonic even if it mean copying the flaws of those games.

Professor Beef said:

probably because they didn't expect people to wanna stop and smell the roses in every goddamned act

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Nah they get no defense for this as it's a 2017 game meaning there was no reason for the timer, which was only included in the mega Drive Sonic game as a carry over from arcade games, and it doesn't make any sense to why Sonic just suddenly dies after hitting 9:59:59 other than...because the game said so.

In fact Sonic Advance 1 and 2 included an option to disable the timer for players who didn't want them, something that I did as I thought it was stupid, and even then the longer the player spent the in level the less points they would get, so they already had a reason to get to the end of the level quickly as possible without the need of a time up.

Furthermore later levels in Mania got longer and longer with levels like Titanic Monarch being god damn annoying and had obstacle that would fling Sonic backwards or required the players to wait like the rocket cars, it's so bad in act 2 that the developers knew this and reset the timer for the boss fight as they knew that the player would die from a time up.

If you're gonna have timer in a game then the level needs to be short akin to Sonic 1 and 2 level length for it to work and not like Sonic 3&Knuckles where they started to get longer and where the timer started to get annoying as I would always get a time up in Death egg Zone Boss fight.

Mr-Joker said:

Nah they get no defense for this as it's a 2017 game meaning there was no reason for the timer, which was only included in the mega Drive Sonic game as a carry over from arcade games, and it doesn't make any sense to why Sonic just suddenly dies after hitting 9:59:59 other than...because the game said so.

In fact Sonic Advance 1 and 2 included an option to disable the timer for players who didn't want them, something that I did as I thought it was stupid, and even then the longer the player spent the in level the less points they would get, so they already had a reason to get to the end of the level quickly as possible without the need of a time up.

Furthermore later levels in Mania got longer and longer with levels like Titanic Monarch being god damn annoying and had obstacle that would fling Sonic backwards or required the players to wait like the rocket cars, it's so bad in act 2 that the developers knew this and reset the timer for the boss fight as they knew that the player would die from a time up.

If you're gonna have timer in a game then the level needs to be short akin to Sonic 1 and 2 level length for it to work and not like Sonic 3&Knuckles where they started to get longer and where the timer started to get annoying as I would always get a time up in Death egg Zone Boss fight.

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Lots of mechanics in games - I would argue the overwhelming majority of mechanics in video games - exist because "the game said so." This is a silly thing to say. Why does Mario get a 1-up when he collects 100 coins? Because the game said so. Why can Sonic breathe using bubbles underwater, when that's not how bubbles work? Because the game said so. Why is there meat in the walls in Castlevania that gives you health? Because the game said so. Why does your health magically regenerate in Call of Duty? Because the game said so. Why does paper beat rock? Because the game said so.

What this really boils down to is either:

1) You just don't like being timed.
2) You think the timer makes the game too difficult.
3) You think Sonic levels that are nearly ten minutes long tend to drag on past their welcome.

Does anyone know offhand how the PC ports of Riders and Heroes are doing nowadays? More specifically Riders since I've at least heard of Heroes getting some general fixes in the past. Part of me would really love one of these to have a definitive version "native" to the PC, but I'm doubtful either could reach the potential of something like how OutRun 2006 did.

TheOGB said:

Pirates' Island was such a fun level to speedrun

EDIT: Goddamn, just popped SRA back in the DSi, it was immediately just as fun as I remembered it. Felt like second nature. No wonder I S-ranked every level (except the Ghost Whale in Blizzard Peaks, lol)

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Yeaaahhh, Pirates' Island is probably my favorite level alongside Sky Babylon funnily enough. I really liked the idea having timed gates throughout the level as well. It's definitely not something that should ever become a regular level trope, but it was cool as a one-time thing and really helped make the level that much more thrilling. Rush Adventure is such a blast.

I like all the last levels in the Genesis Sonic games and I also like Titanic Monarch, though I do think it's probably the weakest zone in that game overall.

sonic 3 final boss still may be the best final boss in video games to this day

it was always that and red in pokemon gsc for me

Anth0ny said:

the best final boss in video games to this day

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Nanomachines, son

Ristar has the best final boss of all time.

Doomsday is hands down best Sonic final boss ya. I hate Adventure 2 but I can also begrudgingly admit that the Biolizard is Final Hazard back to back is fucking aces

Subconian Dreamer said:

Nanomachines, son

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Probably top 5 :)

ViewtifulJC said:

Titanic Monarch >> other Genesis final levels dont @ me

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No lies detected.

Professor Beef said:

Sonic 3K had the GOAT final level (no not talking about Doomsday, that's cheating).

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I'd like Death Egg more if it didn't have so many of those pointless energy warp tunnel things and if act 2's backdrop wasn't so lifeless and devoid of color. Overall it feels like a weaker stage than those that come immediately before and after it.

The bosses are great, though.

Professor Beef said:

The warp tunnels I'll give you, but for the second point, they're in space!

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Wouldn't have killed them to add some greenery on the planet or have literally anything animated in the starscape. It's such a blah thing to have to look at for an entire stage.

Finalhazard is kinda ass, imo but the Biolizard's probably one of the few parts of the Adventure games I legitimately like (As opposed to the apathy/contempt I have for most of it)

I tend to just group S3&K's bosses starting with Death Egg Act 2 and ending with Doomsday into one continuous sequence, and in that vaccum, I'd say that's far and away the best final boss sequence in the entire series.

E: I'm gonna be that weird motherfucker who says they have a soft spot for Triple Trouble's final boss sequence, though that's 95% due to a Metal Sonic fight that isn't ass and nostalgia.

Sixfortyfive said:

Wouldn't have killed them to add some greenery on the planet or have literally anything animated in the starscape. It's such a blah thing to have to look at for an entire stage.

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It was a pretty unique setting for the time. Really made it feel like things were getting down to the wire in a true floating fortress of death. There's so much going on in the stage proper that I never thought it a big deal and it's a great lead-in to Doomsday.

Seven Force said:

Finalhazard is kinda ass, imo but the Biolizard's probably one of the few parts of the Adventure games I legitimately like (As opposed to the apathy/contempt I have for most of it)

I tend to just group S3&K's bosses starting with Death Egg Act 2 and ending with Doomsday into one continuous sequence, and in that vaccum, I'd say that's far and away the best final boss sequence in the entire series.

E: I'm gonna be that weird motherfucker who says they have a soft spot for Triple Trouble's final boss sequence, though that's 95% due to a Metal Sonic fight that isn't ass and nostalgia.

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Finalhazard is eh if you break it down to the sum of it's parts I guess, but I wouldn't really consider Doomsday Zone any better in that regard. Both serve as the perfect climax for their respective games.

Perfect Chaos kind of sucking is the real tragedy tho but then again as much as I love SA1 it's bosses were probably some of the worst in the series bar like... Egg Viper, who was aight.

Finalhazard also has a strict five minute time limit that it only relays to you via in-stage dialog, which kinda sucks.

I actually didn't know that lol

Huzzah! I finally beat Sonic Forces! I enjoyed it enough that I'm going to keep playing through it, try to level up each avatar type, and get all the rings. Probably will not bother with completing every mission, though the time trial ones are really fun and challenging. They have some tight times to beat, and you can't really mess up too much. Most have taken me multiple times, and even Stage 3 took about 20 for me to complete!

Mr-Joker said:

No it's fair to criticize Mania as a fan game because that's exactly what Mania is at its core and the final level just reeks of that as it is just not that fun to play at all.

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lol

I'd love to see a fangame with the same scale, quality and professionalism that actually gets finished. Sonic Mania is not like a fangame at all

Entire chunks of Sonic 2 and CD's level design is more ROM hack quality at points than a single moment of Mania tbh.

Which is to say "it's a fan game" doesn't actually mean anything and is a lazy criticism most of the time.

"___ is like a fangame" doesn't really make sense in regards to a series like Sonic, where even the longtime developers of the series are prone to amateur hour design fuckups on a regular ass basis.

And considering the quality of fangames in general these days, it's damn near a compliment at this point.

I'd be willing to bet there wouldn't be a single fangame comment if the game's graphics were 3D, but the sprites take just as much work as 3d models.

Sonic Forces levels are like the fangames I used to play in 2007

Top 5 Final Bosses

1. Doomsday Zone
2. Perfect Chaos
3. Nonaggression
4. Final Hazard
5. Exception

Bottom 5 Final Bosses

1. Time Eater (holy fucking shit it's awful)
2. Moon Zone (let's remake Doomsday Zone but boring)
3. Devil Doom
4. Solaris (music/atmosphere is nice though)
5. Metal Overlord

Honorable Mentions

• Emerl
• Dark Queen
• True Area 53

I'll give a nod to Nega Wisp Armour and that's about it.