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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043
Dec 18, 2017
1,374
That makes sense. UBI or BI is basically seen as just a bandaid on Capitalism, just like other welfare programs. Thank you for clarifying.

I apologize, I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things related to Socialism. I have read Chomsky and Kropotkin and I am interested in Socialism and Hard Left politics. But I don't pretend to really know what I'm talking about.

Is this a good place to ask for education about Socialism, or is this a space for people who already understand Socialism to talk amongst themselves?
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Is this a good place to ask for education about Socialism, or is this a space for people who already understand Socialism to talk amongst themselves?

Both! But just be aware that everyone's got their own opinions so if you ask a question you might get a variety of different answers. There's a lot that socialists tend to disagree on once you get into the weeds.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
People that reject reforms probably aren't the ones that would have their lives greatly enriched or even saved by these basic changes. Its a pipe dream to think that the situation will become intolerable anytime soon.

Is this a good place to ask for education about Socialism, or is this a space for people who already understand Socialism to talk amongst themselves?

Marx didn't even have clear ideas of what he was aiming for.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
I can tell you first hand, that your statement is factually incorrect.

Please tell me how the bare minimum starvation wages, designed specifically to keep you on the edge but not push you over, will be a positive change for anyone.


People that reject reforms probably aren't the ones that would have their lives greatly enriched or even saved by these basic changes.

Ah, yeah, all the working poor who reject statist liberal welfarism are obviously doing very very well for themselves.

I have read Chomsky and Kropotkin and I am interested in Socialism and Hard Left politics.

Neither Chomsky nor Kropotkin are Socialist.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
That makes sense. UBI or BI is basically seen as just a bandaid on Capitalism, just like other welfare programs. Thank you for clarifying.

I apologize, I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things related to Socialism. I have read Chomsky and Kropotkin and I am interested in Socialism and Hard Left politics. But I don't pretend to really know what I'm talking about.

Is this a good place to ask for education about Socialism, or is this a space for people who already understand Socialism to talk amongst themselves?
The First page, there's recommendations for begginers. But If you have any question be Free to ask.
Communists groups have some differences.For example Chomsky and cropotkin are anarch-communists, it's different from socialists-communists.
If you are interested in that type, Bakunin, is the big writer for this type of communism.

We make part of the big group "communist" But there's groups in that group that have different ideas on some points.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
Jacobin did a article critical of the ubi recently https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequality-work. Worth reading, even if they're some issues.

Personally my view is that I think the orthodox view that was dominate on the old site which basically envisions ubi as this ultimate quickfix for capitalism in the context of creeping automation is a very problematic one. While I won't deny ubi as a reform could have some important transitional implications, esp considering I know a lot of organised groups around unemployment here are making the ubi demand, but there's nothing about universal basic income that fundamentally challenges the capitalist order and the creeping problems of automation isn't going be fixed by giving everyone free money.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
The main thing that UBI theoretically does is get rid of the whole "required to sell one's labor" thing. Obviously the ramifications of that aren't "everyone now has perfect choice in the labor they engage in" since people have different lifestyles, but I also wouldn't underestimate the effect it could have on public consciousness

Or maybe it just serves to perpetuate inequality by "buying off the poor with beads". I don't know how it's going to go
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Please tell me how the bare minimum starvation wages, designed specifically to keep you on the edge but not push you over, will be a positive change for anyone.
The extra money UBI would have brought into my home, would have stopped me from being physically sick from worry because of almost not being able to pay the basic bills and being completely fucked throughout this year.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
The extra money UBI would have brought into my home, would have stopped me from being physically sick from worry because of almost not being able to pay the basic bills and being completely fucked throughout this year.

People say the same thing about minimum wage and look at how it is failing you.

Taxes are going to increase, wages are going to continue to stagnate in the face of inflation, cost of goods are going to go up to reflect the artificial/non existent increase of purchasing power, the UBI will be used as a wedge in politics and you're going to find yourself in the exact same situation with still no solution.

Again, I have no real issue with whatever Capitalist tactics people use to find relief in Capitalism. Just don't act like it solves the contradictions of Capital and don't call the bandaid Socialism.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
r34seisf64701.png
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
The main thing that UBI theoretically does is get rid of the whole "required to sell one's labor" thing. Obviously the ramifications of that aren't "everyone now has perfect choice in the labor they engage in" since people have different lifestyles, but I also wouldn't underestimate the effect it could have on public consciousness

Or maybe it just serves to perpetuate inequality by "buying off the poor with beads". I don't know how it's going to go

Since it is also pitched as a means to create savings in public spending through cuts, possibly "cleaning up the tax code", I think it is going to be ideologically weighted towards this idea that it has an inherently limited scope because "we had to get rid of everything else to give you this free money, our hands are tied". But, assuming a significant amount of the workforce at some point actually becomes perpetually unemployed, which may not be true, it could create some interesting new class dynamics. If there is no realistic opportunity for most people to increase their income beyond the UBI, how is there any meritocracy or social mobility? The capitalist class in power at that point would be incredibly entrenched, born with more claims to property that have few believable suggestions as to how they may have earned that position, or how any of us could competitively threaten it such that they have proved their value as owners of capital. How does that change mass ideology about the economy being free, offering opportunity?

But if little else changes it seems that it would be more inherently friendly to the right. They'll get their cuts, most people will still work, and now they can always say that they are giving you free money, so why are you complaining? It will also be a continuation of the notion that privatizing is preferable, since you are in a sense privatizing your government programs by suggesting that the free money is money that would have otherwise been directed by the government, but now it is in your hands as a rational economic agent to decide how you will find all of those goods and services. There will be less reason to some people to doubt the meritocracy, because now you can also browbeat people for wasting their free money. I'm sure stories will abound about how some people used their UBI to start multi-million dollar businesses, while others just bought too much crushed avocado on toast.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
What I am curious about is, if the proletarian class is the revolutionary class under Capitalism, what happens when there is no proletarian?
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Since it is also pitched as a means to create savings in public spending through cuts, possibly "cleaning up the tax code", I think it is going to be ideologically weighted towards this idea that it has an inherently limited scope because "we had to get rid of everything else to give you this free money, our hands are tied". But, assuming a significant amount of the workforce at some point actually becomes perpetually unemployed, which may not be true, it could create some interesting new class dynamics. If there is no realistic opportunity for most people to increase their income beyond the UBI, how is there any meritocracy or social mobility? The capitalist class in power at that point would be incredibly entrenched, born with more claims to property that have few believable suggestions as to how they may have earned that position, or how any of us could competitively threaten it such that they have proved their value as owners of capital. How does that change mass ideology about the economy being free, offering opportunity?

But if little else changes it seems that it would be more inherently friendly to the right. They'll get their cuts, most people will still work, and now they can always say that they are giving you free money, so why are you complaining? It will also be a continuation of the notion that privatizing is preferable, since you are in a sense privatizing your government programs by suggesting that the free money is money that would have otherwise been directed by the government, but now it is in your hands as a rational economic agent to decide how you will find all of those goods and services. There will be less reason to some people to doubt the meritocracy, because now you can also browbeat people for wasting their free money. I'm sure stories will abound about how some people used their UBI to start multi-million dollar businesses, while others just bought too much crushed avocado on toast.
While I don't disagree that any of this is a possibility, I think we should recognize that honestly any sort of progress we make the right wing and reactionary elements will manage to find a way to frame this way. The truth is that basically anything we do also empowers the right because of how deeply they're fueled by resentment, and the more we find ways to provide for more people the more there is for them to resent. I think its time that we stop beating around the bush and recognize that cruelty is a powerful motivating factor for a lot of people and they will always find a vicious glee in kicking others and that they're always going to find a logic for tearing down anything we do just because it hurts people

There's never a moment, never a movement, never a plan or a vision or an implementation that will avoid having these people planted firmly in the way, and while they're not a majority there's too many of them for them not to be an obstacle.
 
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anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
While I don't disagree that any of this is a possibility, I think we should recognize that honestly any sort of progress we make the right wing and reactionary elements will manage to find a way to frame this way. The truth is that basically anything we do also empowers the right because of how deeply they're fueled by resentment, and the more we find ways to provide for more people the more there is for them to resent. I think its time that we stop beating around the bush and recognize that cruelty is a powerful motivating factor for a lot of people and they will always find a vicious glee in kicking others and that they're always going to find a logic for tearing down anything we do just because it hurts people

There's never a moment, never a movement, never a plan or a vision or an implementation that will avoid having these people planted firmly in the way, and while they're not a majority there's too many of them for them not to be an obstacle.

I'm with you, it is unavoidable that there will be obstacles to any radical left movement. I just don't want the framing of an austerity fueled UBI to be a thing that a lot of liberals or progressives accept. It could be a false perception since I honestly don't read that much online or in the press about how UBI is moving along, I know Scotland has some kind of trial coming up or something, but from what I have seen the narrative of "UBI as savings" has been very large on both sides. Probably as a well-meaning attempt at finding common ground. Progressives know conservatives care about low public spending, so they indulge it in advocating UBI.
 

PlayDat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
193
fgQooqK.png
For years, I'd been mentally mispronouncing Jacobin as Juck-O-bin rather than Jacku-bin. Heard it the proper way by chance listening to a podcast. This kind of stuff only comes up when I'm reading.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I'm with you, it is unavoidable that there will be obstacles to any radical left movement. I just don't want the framing of an austerity fueled UBI to be a thing that a lot of liberals or progressives accept. It could be a false perception since I honestly don't read that much online or in the press about how UBI is moving along, I know Scotland has some kind of trial coming up or something, but from what I have seen the narrative of "UBI as savings" has been very large on both sides. Probably as a well-meaning attempt at finding common ground. Progressives know conservatives care about low public spending, so they indulge it in advocating UBI.
I was talking about this with someone just the other day as well, one of the things we will also run into if we continue with democratic reforms is an asymmetry where "progressive" politicians almost always "try to consider everyone's wants" including conservative citizens, while conservative politicians do...not.
 
OP
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
What I am curious about is, if the proletarian class is the revolutionary class under Capitalism, what happens when there is no proletarian?

Are you referring to when automation replaces the working class but the MoP remain under the control of the bourgeoisie? I don't think anyone really knows the answer. Either everyone gets bought off and lives a sort of ok middle class life with no real power, or everything gets worse as the government seeks to cut UBI to the mimimum and everyone is some sort of neo-lumpenprole. But if everyone is lumpen, may there not be revolutionary potential there, just not in the same way that the proletariat can organize through the workplace?
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
If we reach a point where there's effectively no working class then we're in uncharted waters.

Well, sort of

The fundamental question around revolutionary action is still "at which point does the population find conditions intolerable?"
 
If we reach a point where there's effectively no working class then we're in uncharted waters.

Well, sort of

The fundamental question around revolutionary action is still "at which point does the population find conditions intolerable?"
Looking strictly at Germany, we're past the point of no return. Voters once again showed that social inequality is a non-issue to them. It's way easier to blame foreigners for everything.
 
OP
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
From zizek

"The US is pursuing two contradictory strategies with North Korea and it could lead to nuclear war"
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-contradictory-strategies-zizek-a8131176.html

I love Zizek's totally meandering ways even if it's not really necessary. It's funny, but not surprising, that some people in the comments can't tell he's being flippant with that last paragraph to make a point about the absurdity of it all.

The only thing we can do in such a situation is to directly criminalise any talk about the use of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction. Leaders and states who even consider it should be treated as pariahs, as obscene subhuman monsters. Anything should be permitted against them, from mass boycott to personal humiliation.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Zizek is an ass but I begrudgingly admit that that piece is pretty good. That's about the long and short of what I have to say about him
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Is anyone familiar with the work of J. Arch Getty? I never really paid attention to any of his stuff because it seems like hes referenced primarily by Stalinists but I read a really interesting article by him about the 1936 Soviet constitution that certainly didn't come off as pro-Stalin.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I think you guys would like a British mini series called, A very British Coup.

Here's the description from wiki. (Cause i'm shit at explaining things)
Harry Perkins, an unassuming, working class, very left-wing Leader of the Labour Party and Member of Parliament for Sheffield Central, becomes Prime Minister in March 1991. The priorities of the Perkins Government include dissolving all newspaper monopolies, withdrawal from NATO, removing all American military bases on UK soil, unilateral nuclear disarmament, and true open government. Newspaper magnate Sir George Fison, with allies within British political and civil service circles, moves immediately to discredit him, with the United States the key, but covert, conspirator. The most effective of the Prime Minister's domestic enemies is the aristocratic Sir Percy Browne, Head of MI5, whose ancestors "unto the Middle Ages" have exercised subtle power behind the scenes. However Harry finds support in Joan Cook, a loyal Member of Parliament (MP) and Home Secretary; and Thompson, Perkins' Press Secretary; Inspector Page, his Head of Security and Sir Montague Kowalski, the Government Chief Scientific Adviser. It provides an intimate view of the machinations of a particularly British political conspiracy.

It's very good, and worth a go. If you can find it.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Is anyone familiar with the work of J. Arch Getty? I never really paid attention to any of his stuff because it seems like hes referenced primarily by Stalinists but I read a really interesting article by him about the 1936 Soviet constitution that certainly didn't come off as pro-Stalin.


Link?

He's probably a bit better than Grover Furr. His chief complaint seems to be "you can't trust refugees".

Also, lol constitution.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Link?

He's probably a bit better than Grover Furr. His chief complaint seems to be "you can't trust refugees".

Also, lol constitution.

It's on JSTOR. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500596?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

It's pretty much purely a historical piece trying to trace the development of that particular constitution, but his thesis boils down to "Stalin wanted a democratic constitution because it would be good PR and he was probably convinced by that point that the party had eliminated all internal rivals that could pose a threat so the party apparatus would just get elected anyway, but he ignored actual criticisms and requests that citizens made during the drafting process so it's not like he really cared about their opinion and then when voting time nearly came around he/Moscow freaked out and subverted the voting process".
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,319
In my opinion UBI should considered an expansion of social security and as well having UHC being expansion of Medicaid/Medicare

I don't entirely trust the state power *AHEM South AHEM* to do any expansion of medicaid/medicare for any of the poor people, so it should be in the best interest of the federal government to faciliate such expansion and if the states bitch about, well let 'em bitch about it.

I'm not quite as cynical enough to believe that UBI is such pipe dream but man good luck trying to tell the commoners about why the military industrial complex needs to be taxed and dissambled with out their eyes glazing over or raising a bitch about "Muh military power" with capitalist/imperialist conservative and democrats
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
This is why lifestylism is garbage.

Does anybody here identify as a marxist and nothing else? The term always always seems to be used by rich people who worship Steve Jobs and drink expensive coffees. Like, the definition of marxism on that site is literally almost every interaction I've had with people that use the label.

My guess is we see another resurgence of Jacobinist/Stalinist radical working class Capitalist reformism.

I doubt it. We got a mix of people distrusting state power and growing economic liberalism and a reaction to the center-lefts push to control culture.

However, I think Stalin will get a better reputation as people stop taking Kruschev at his word and blaming him for all of the countries problems during his rule. It's always interesting to see new stuff coming out of people studying the USSR.

https://ir.library.carleton.ca/pub/10041/