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StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
Quite simply, Nintendo (and Japan for that matter) doesn't consider the Zero Suit as sexualization.
It's so bad, though! I'll never be able to forget the Smash Bros rocket heels.

Fans: But why those ludicrous heels?
Nintendo: They are rocket propulsion and this is how you handle it!

Does this mean the male marines all had rocket heels too?? ... I wanna see! Nintendo, put your money where your mouth is and show us how standardised rocket heels are in Metroid! I want to see some of the marines from Prime 3 in rocket heels!
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
I doubt there would be any outrage unless the game itself is bad. Nintendo fans don't share that many characteristics with the alt-right, so they are generally fine with change as long as it comes from Nintendo itself. Just look at how much opposition there was to Nintendo going mobile and how quickly it disappeared as soon as Pokemon Go showed up.


Quite simply, Nintendo (and Japan for that matter) doesn't consider the Zero Suit as sexualization.

I can't see how one can make a generalization about a whole country. Regarding Nintendo, it's more a case of not caring enough and, possibly, hoping that that kind of stuff can resonate with the younger audience and thus boost the sales.
 

a Question

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
Sorry if this was broad up but is it ok to reveal skin (not to much) if its more for establishing female bad assery? Vanasha might be not great example since this design is in line with Karja environment and culture, its hot there and male have exposed skin too.
horizon-character-art-vanasha-armour-solo.jpg
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
At the same time, most of the buyers of Zelda don't want that change at all and I sense that Nintendo fears a backlash because of it (but I see most people buying it either way if they change it, with some trying to boycott because "SJW" like in Doctor Who). Nintendo fanbase is one of the more faithful in this industry so I can see this happening too.
Nah, Nintendo fans might be adamant against it happening, but once it gets implemented, they'll eat it up (and then go on about how progressive Nintendo is). There are a few alt-right supporters in the Nintendo fanbase, but the vast majority of them aren't motivated in the same way.

I can't see how one can make a generalization about a whole country. Regarding Nintendo, it's more a case of not caring enough and, possibly, hoping that that kind of stuff can resonate with the younger audience and thus boost the sales.
It's less a matter of generalization and more about social mores. Imagery that's considered sexualization in the West, like super short skirts and knee-high stockings don't generate the same kind of response in Japan, and is considered child-friendly. I don't think that it's unfair for us to still criticize it, but Japan is what it is.

Sorry if this was broad up but is it ok to reveal skin (not to much) if its more for establishing female bad assery? Vanasha might be not great example since this design is in line with Karja environment and culture, its hot there and male have exposed skin too.
horizon-character-art-vanasha-armour-solo.jpg
I think so. Presentation is as important, if not moreso than costume. The problem is that women are often shown in poses that are meant to titillate above all other purposes.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Nah, Nintendo fans might be adamant against it happening, but once it gets implemented, they'll eat it up (and then go on about how progressive Nintendo is). There are a few alt-right supporters in the Nintendo fanbase, but the vast majority of them aren't motivated in the same way.


It's less a matter of generalization and more about social mores. Imagery that's considered sexualization in the West, like super short skirts and knee-high stockings don't generate the same kind of response in Japan, and is considered child-friendly. I don't think that it's unfair for us to still criticize it, but Japan is what it is.


I think so. Presentation is as important, if not moreso than costume. The problem is that women are often shown in poses that are meant to titillate above all other purposes.

Well, that's what I said. haha
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Bare skin neither necessitates nor is necessitated by sexual objectification. It's about framing, presentation. How they act in the game. How they're shown in promo art. Vanasha's a badass, not a simpering love interest. The camera never ogles her. So, to me, she's good.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Sorry, that's BOTW Zelda.



They totally can. They can make a retcon with Link being reborn with a different sex (since the status quo since 30 years ago is that he will reborn as a man with his basic characteristics). It's a matter if the Zelda Team wants or not, which right now is no and I think in the future too. Link is seen by Nintendo and it's developers as an established character just like Mario and because of it I don't see them ever changing him to a woman since they don't see him in that way.

At the same time, most of the buyers of Zelda don't want that change at all and I sense that Nintendo fears a backlash because of it (but I see most people buying it either way if they change it, with some trying to boycott because "SJW" like in Doctor Who). Nintendo fanbase is one of the more faithful in this industry so I can see this happening too.

Look, I have infinite pistols and all the time in the world. COME AT ME!
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
I doubt there would be any outrage unless the game itself is bad. Nintendo fans don't share that many characteristics with the alt-right, so they are generally fine with change as long as it comes from Nintendo itself.

Not only that, Team Ninja's Zero Suit Samus is not exactly celebrated.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg


And she's pretty baddass in the game too

ntpnDHH.gif


While it didn't affect my image of the character, Other M Samus is seen as an aberration, and Sm4sh Zero Suit wasn't well recieved, not only it was character assasination as it worst, the spins on the designs were ridiculous.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Not only that, Team Ninja's Zero Suit Samus is not exactly celebrated.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg


And she's pretty baddass in the game too

ntpnDHH.gif


While it didn't affect my image of the character, Other M Samus is seen as an aberration, and Sm4sh Zero Suit wasn't well recieved, not only it was character assasination as it worst, the spins on the designs were ridiculous.

What didn't people like about smash 4 zero suit samus?
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
What didn't people like about smash 4 zero suit samus?

Based on Team Ninja's Zero Suit, and the stupidity of the Heels

Also, an anecdote i'd like to share, one of my sisters is studying cloth design and, as an assignement before holidays, the class had to make a shoe, bag and garnment about a free theme. My sister is a metroid fan, so she choose to take Samus as inspiration. Now i'll have to say that, per my recommendation, she didn't play Other M, but she reached the designs via google (along with some horendous fanart) and well, she wasn't exactly pleased.

Also, she too found the rocket heels really stupid in concept and execution.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Not only that, Team Ninja's Zero Suit Samus is not exactly celebrated.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg


And she's pretty baddass in the game too

ntpnDHH.gif


While it didn't affect my image of the character, Other M Samus is seen as an aberration, and Sm4sh Zero Suit wasn't well recieved, not only it was character assasination as it worst, the spins on the designs were ridiculous.

To be fair, IN-GAME Other M Samus and Cutscene Other M Samus are different to the point where it feels like they're two separate characters. Like, there are some legitamately badass scenes in Other M...then the cutscenes start and apparently they switch bodies because MAN is there a difference.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
There's so much to unpack about how Other M treats Samus, and it's a topic that's been beaten to death.

I find it kinda sad that her one shining moment is when she self-authorizes the space jump with a snarky little "Any objections, Adam?".
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
Sorry if this was broad up but is it ok to reveal skin (not to much) if its more for establishing female bad assery? Vanasha might be not great example since this design is in line with Karja environment and culture, its hot there and male have exposed skin too.
horizon-character-art-vanasha-armour-solo.jpg
Fun fact: I often dress up my characters specifically to show off their musculature in games that actually give me a muscle slider for female characters.

There are not many games that do this.

Mind you, doing so for athletic women to highlight power and athleticism is a far, FAR cry from doing so to highlight sexiness and, well, male gaze-specific eroticism. The former basically never happens in games as they are made today; Vanasha is a great exception that unfortunately only proves the rule.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Not only that, Team Ninja's Zero Suit Samus is not exactly celebrated.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg


And she's pretty baddass in the game too

ntpnDHH.gif


While it didn't affect my image of the character, Other M Samus is seen as an aberration, and Sm4sh Zero Suit wasn't well recieved, not only it was character assasination as it worst, the spins on the designs were ridiculous.

I loved that Zero Suit Samus design and most of it's armor design in the game too. I hope that it's incorporated in Smash.

Look, I have infinite pistols and all the time in the world. COME AT ME!

Hah, me too. Before that Tetra was my favorite and the one who I saw as the best one along TP Zelda and SS Zelda but BOTW Zelda is really the best one design-wise, with her personality, participation and development of character too. I really like her and what they did with her in that game.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
I doubt there would be any outrage unless the game itself is bad. Nintendo fans don't share that many characteristics with the alt-right, so they are generally fine with change as long as it comes from Nintendo itself. Just look at how much opposition there was to Nintendo going mobile and how quickly it disappeared as soon as Pokemon Go showed up.


Quite simply, Nintendo (and Japan for that matter) doesn't consider the Zero Suit as sexualization.

I just can't help but imagine people crying foul over Nintendo "Pandering to the SJWs". But I think you're right, I think it would just die down and people would just move on.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg

My 3DS is busted so I haven't had a chance to play Samus Returns but that's a nice compromise. Toned down bust size with a little more muscle. Hopefully the next Smash game uses this as a basis for her design.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
With how androgynous Link already is, you could have the game never specify our hero of time's gender all all and just let the player decide whether his or her Link is a boy or a girl. It'd be a fun challenge, and not impossible thanks to Link's silent protagonist status, but much harder to keep up in preview and release and post-launch press coverage than in in-game writing.

This doesn't really work with established characters. Everyone would just default to boy in their assumptions. It works in stuff like Undertale or TF2 because the characters were ambiguous from the beginning.
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
My 3DS is busted so I haven't had a chance to play Samus Returns but that's a nice compromise. Toned down bust size with a little more muscle. Hopefully the next Smash game uses this as a basis for her design.

I hope you can get your 3DS repaired or play the game in some way because it's quite a good game, and puts Samus under a light that, seriously, was sorely needed.

I don't know if the Zero Suit is ever shown though, i haven't finished it yet (I fell into the Monster Hunter curse)
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,556
I hope you can get your 3DS repaired or play the game in some way because it's quite a good game, and puts Samus under a light that, seriously, was sorely needed.

I don't know if the Zero Suit is ever shown though, i haven't finished it yet (I fell into the Monster Hunter curse)
You see it if you beat the game on normal in under 4 hours.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
I agree with this. I don't really like to call out specific posters, but I would say that Lime has a history of being incredibly aggressive when pushing forward his/her/their arguments both on NeoGAF and here. That's not to say that their heart isn't in the right place, I completely agree that Nintendo can and should be doing better on issues of representation but starting a thread with the (basic) premise "Nintendo sucks at representation" and then dismissing positive steps of representation form Nintendo as "too late" results in defensiveness. Which at that point leads to posters arguing back and forth regarding specific examples of representation by Nintendo and if it's positive or negative (IE Link dressing up in Gerudo clothes, which I understand has been received both positively and negatively by the Trans community). It's a natural human reaction. I honestly think that a better worded OP regarding representation in Nintendo games would receive a lot less pushback, even if the points made were the same.

Nah! Even when you're rational, calm, and mature with your wording like with these two topics, people will still throw a fit. And it gotten so bad in the second topic, an ADMIN had to stepped in and say knock it off.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
I got into a discussion about this in relation to Xenoblade Chronicles 2 with my flatmate the other day. I should have expected it considering the costumes he has consistently chosen for his XCX female characters. I shouldn't have even instigated the conversation but I guess it contextualized a lot about him. His arguments were:

  • "Well it's a different culture" (while admitting that the culture is shitty);
  • "Historically, people were getting married at 14" (and I wonder how much agency women had in those situations);
  • "It sounds to me like you feel the way you do because of a fear of shame" (because I mentioned that not only does it make me uncomfortable, but I have many lady gamer friends who would love this game if it weren't for the gratuitousness and I am uncomfortable showing it to them);
  • "This stuff has a fan base and that's fine and they should be catered to";
I had to walk away at a certain point because it became clear he was rationalizing his own fetishes and didn't have any interest in considering a viewpoint that seemed to criticize his, even though he always goes on and on about empathy. idk I think my entire perception of the guy has changed now :/
 
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DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Isn't every Link a different one? If so, there's no reason the character can't be a woman, since it's not the same Link every time.

It has nothing to do with who Link is as an individual in any particular game. All Links still feed into the same icon. That icon is readily recognizable regardless of the game he's in. There isn't really any difference between s specific named character and what Link is. For all that Nintendo patched together a wonky time line for the series: Legend fits well in the game's title. It's the same legend retold, with each telling a different story but elements taken from a shared mythos, and shared characters. It's always Link, nobody else. It's always Zelda (with rare exception). It's always Ganon (with rare exception and even then they're usually connected to him). Those elements and those characters are the same. They are what connect the games together and make them instantly recognizable. That's why the argument "but it's a different Link", doesn't matter to me in regards to what I said about just flipping the gender of a character.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
It has nothing to do with who Link is as an individual in any particular game. All Links still feed into the same icon. That icon is readily recognizable regardless of the game he's in. There isn't really any difference between s specific named character and what Link is. For all that Nintendo patched together a wonky time line for the series: Legend fits well in the game's title. It's the same legend retold, with each telling a different story but elements taken from a shared mythos, and shared characters. It's always Link, nobody else. It's always Zelda (with rare exception). It's always Ganon (with rare exception and even then they're usually connected to him). Those elements and those characters are the same. They are what connect the games together and make them instantly recognizable. That's why the argument "but it's a different Link", doesn't matter to me.

Ok

But

That's your interpretation of what's possible. It's not the only possibility, especially when dealing with a story that involves rebirth/reincarnation/etc.

There is no real argument against making a female Link, except 'tradition'. It's not sacrosanct.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
happy new year, fellow man-hating feminazis. let's hope 2018 is the year where we finally take away all games away from men!
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Ok

But

That's your interpretation of what's possible. It's not the only possibility, especially when dealing with a story that involves rebirth/reincarnation/etc.

There is no real argument against making a female Link, except 'tradition'. It's not sacrosanct.

I never implied otherwise and I did not call anything sacrosanct. I said I don't like gender flipped characters. I want original characters with their own identities in their own series. I explained why "Link being a different incarnation every time" doesn't matter in terms of recognizing him as "an established character". That's all.
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
Here's a scene from that comic of Samus getting ready to fight the evils of the galaxy:
sgPGx1F.jpg

Not only does Samus not look like this, but I cannot even imagine a scene like this; Samus getting ready and showing that isn't some pandering crap.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I hope you can get your 3DS repaired or play the game in some way because it's quite a good game, and puts Samus under a light that, seriously, was sorely needed.

I don't know if the Zero Suit is ever shown though, i haven't finished it yet (I fell into the Monster Hunter curse)
You see it if you beat the game on normal in under 4 hours.

You also see it for a moment if you die with her. Also, Samus Returns is great, my favorite 2D Metroid.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,006
In regards to practical mechanics outfit... I would understand that if gran Turismo 6 had female pit crew dressing and looking like that

But this is the same game where one of the 4 main party members runs around in a leather jacket half opened exposing pecs and stomach through battle. And cars fly, etc

They clearly took full creative liberty with the designs, and it's clearly a fantasy

I'm not saying your wrong to not like it, just don't see how practicality is relevant in that case?

Hey man, you asked why people don't like it. As for me, gaudy designs that are so blatantly trying to pander to men are pretty annoying :3

I also feel like the fantasy argument doesn't hold all that much water since XV is clearly not trying to go all in regarding what we normally visualize when thinking about JRPG outfits. Hell even it's tagline is "This is a fantasy based on reality."

And even if I were to agree with you, stuff like the car washing cutscenes still exist.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
I never implied otherwise and I did not call anything sacrosanct. I said I don't like gender flipped characters. I want original characters with their own identities in their own series. I explained why "Link being a different incarnation every time" doesn't matter in terms of recognizing him as "a character". That's all.

Sure, I'm not saying you said it was sacrosanct. I'm saying it's not. And nothing really precludes having a different gender when the character literally changes every game. You don't like it, for whatever reason, okay. But many would enjoy it and see it as refreshing and interesting. There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it".
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Sure, I'm not saying you said it was sacrosanct. I'm saying it's not. And nothing really precludes having a different gender when the character literally changes every game. You don't like it, for whatever reason, okay. But many would enjoy it and see it as refreshing and interesting. There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it".

Narratively, no. But my reasons aren't narrative. And it's easy to reduce one's reasons for not liking something down to zero if you ignore the reasons given. You can do that for anything. ALL of it is personal taste. Everything discussed in this thread can be distilled down to that if you ignore all the reasons why. I don't like characters being mutable unless they are established that way. I find gender flips of established characters its own form of lazy pandering. Here you go "tosses out a bone". I feel female characters deserve their own identities, not just "female version of". Those are reasons. Don't ignore them because you disagree with me and just want to reduce my argument to "doesn't like thing".
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
You see it if you beat the game on normal in under 4 hours.

Oh, so it isn't only a concept inside an art book. Nice

Now, it would have been cool to be able to play with the Zero Suit as an extra

You also see it for a moment if you die with her

I forgot about it ^^U

There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it"

I'm about to turn off my PC, but before that i'd like to chime in and talk a bit about this.

Some interactions and relationships in Zelda games are written basically around Link being male, if you look at the Zora prince for example, or Daruk, those are bromance (i'm not too keen about the term, but can't think on anything better) relationships that wouldn't work the same with a female Link, also the Gerudo arc would need to be changed, and some characters and interactios too.

But then again, to me this seems like the new hot topic and it's starting to get repetitive. As i said before, the same question could be applied to every single videogame character, as in, Joel and Ellie, JC Denton or Lara Croft. The writer wanted Link to be male, it was his creation, and the caracter is good and defined if you look well enough.

Also, there's no one saying I don't want a female Link but there's a lot of us that, after playing BotW, think that the game, as it is now, wouldn't have worked with a female Link

I'm in for it in a next Zelda though, if it works in Pokémon with implied love interests, why wouldn't do it with Zelda?

So warrior/bounty hunter look consists of a skintight catsuit and an 'I'm proud of these tiddies' pose

Sticking out your chest is a power/strenght pose
 
Last edited:

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Here's a scene from that comic of Samus getting ready to fight the evils of the galaxy:
sgPGx1F.jpg

Not only does Samus not look like this, but I cannot even imagine a scene like this; Samus getting ready and showing that isn't some pandering crap.

Yep, another sign of the increasing sexualization that has happened in Japanese video games (though this was an American comic). That manga that was made was decent but I honestly can't remember any scenes showing Samus without the suit in a badass way. Which is a goddamn shame. Here's hoping Prime 4 continues the return to form Samus REturns did.

happy new year, fellow man-hating feminazis. let's hope 2018 is the year where we finally take away all games away from men!

Evil Cackle as lightning shoots around the air. :P
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Nah! Even when you're rational, calm, and mature with your wording like with these two topics, people will still throw a fit. And it gotten so bad in the second topic, an ADMIN had to stepped in and say knock it off.
Yeah, the harshness of the tone of any criticism is just an excuse, and not even a good one at that.

It has nothing to do with who Link is as an individual in any particular game. All Links still feed into the same icon. That icon is readily recognizable regardless of the game he's in. There isn't really any difference between s specific named character and what Link is. For all that Nintendo patched together a wonky time line for the series: Legend fits well in the game's title. It's the same legend retold, with each telling a different story but elements taken from a shared mythos, and shared characters. It's always Link, nobody else. It's always Zelda (with rare exception). It's always Ganon (with rare exception and even then they're usually connected to him). Those elements and those characters are the same. They are what connect the games together and make them instantly recognizable. That's why the argument "but it's a different Link", doesn't matter to me in regards to what I said about just flipping the gender of a character.
"Always" doesn't work like that. If there are any exceptions, that that's an element that doesn't "always" exist any more. It means that that element is malleable, and can be used or not according to the wish of creator. And if two of the elements of a tripod are malleable, then the third isn't necessarily set in stone either.

Narratively, no. But my reasons aren't narrative. And it's easy to reduce one's reasons for not liking something down to zero if you ignore the reasons given. You can do that for anything. ALL of it is personal taste. Everything discussed in this thread can be distilled down to that if you ignore all the reasons why. I don't like characters being mutable unless they are established that way. I find gender flips of established characters its own form of lazy pandering. Here you go "tosses out a bone". I feel female characters deserve their own identities, not just "female version of". Those are reasons. Don't ignore them because you disagree with me and just want to reduce my argument to "doesn't like thing".
It's easy to argue that Link isn't an established character though.
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,163
Not only that, Team Ninja's Zero Suit Samus is not exactly celebrated.

Mercury Steam took a step to the right direction in that regard. Their Samus looks stronger (The heels are still there though)

95c.jpg

This zero suit Samus design for me is like the perfect combination of sexiness but also looking like a warrior/bounty hunter. It shows that you don't have to make Samus look like a barby doll to make her look super sexy.
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
I also feel like the fantasy argument doesn't hold all that much water since XV is clearly not trying to go all in regarding what we normally visualize when thinking about JRPG outfits. Hell even it's tagline is "This is a fantasy based on reality."

Both XV and MGSV tried to be the most realistic games in their respective series and ended up giving us two of the worst female character designs.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Both XV and MGSV tried to be the most realistic games in their respective series and ended up giving us two of the worst female character designs.
I think that a strong counter argument to "what's the harm?" is that having a character design like that ends up undermining what the rest of the game is trying to establish. I honestly think that there would be (and should be) less criticism if this kind of sexualization is in games that don't pretend to be anything but panderfests like Senran Kagura or OneeChanbara.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Sure, I'm not saying you said it was sacrosanct. I'm saying it's not. And nothing really precludes having a different gender when the character literally changes every game. You don't like it, for whatever reason, okay. But many would enjoy it and see it as refreshing and interesting. There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it".

Because there's really no one. Like I said before, it's about the developers wanting to put in the game or not because otherwise there's nothing.
 

Deleted member 15948

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
786
This zero suit Samus design for me is like the perfect combination of sexiness but also looking like a warrior/bounty hunter. It shows that you don't have to make Samus look like a barby doll to make her look super sexy.

So warrior/bounty hunter look consists of a skintight catsuit and an 'I'm proud of these tiddies' pose, I see, I see.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
I think that a strong counter argument to "what's the harm?" is that having a character design like that ends up undermining what the rest of the game is trying to establish. I honestly think that there would be (and should be) less criticism if this kind of sexualization is in games that don't pretend to be anything but panderfests like Senran Kagura or OneeChanbara.

OK, but I enjoy sexualization and also big budget AAA games

I don't want the only place you can get designs like Cindy or quiet to be in weird quirky games like Senran kagura. I don't even like beat em ups to be honest
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
OK, but I enjoy sexualization and also big budget AAA games

I don't want the only place you can get designs like Cindy or quiet to be in weird quirky games like Senran kagura. I don't even like beat em ups to be honest
Then go and convince developers to make more expensive panderfests and keep the hypersexualization out of the more mainstream titles.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
"Always" doesn't work like that. If there are any exceptions, that that's an element that doesn't "always" exist any more. It means that that element is malleable, and can be used or not according to the wish of creator. And if two of the elements of a tripod are malleable, then the third isn't necessarily set in stone either.

It's easy to argue that Link isn't an established character though.

Ask any random person (familiar with the series) who the three main characters of LoZ are and I doubt anyone's going to name Vaati. I already pointed out there were exceptions to the rule. I suppose I needed to put quotation marks around my use of "always" too. I am and have been talking about iconic usage of elements and characters. Those being things recognized as associated with and representative of something, those three characters are it and they go together. I am not saying that is what makes them sacrosanct. I am saying that is what makes them iconic. I am then saying an iconic character is a type of established character, even if technically that character is a reborn version of that character in most of the games. Link is always still recognizably Link, as are Zelda and Ganon. They never need to be reintroduce to people who have met them at least once.

To head the next argument off at the pass I hope, this is in no way, shape, or form, meant to be interpreted as an argument against Link being female. This is separate from that. I am only trying to establish why these three characters are iconic characters, and why iconic characters are also established characters, regardless of a reincarnation factor. It comes down to recognition.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Then go and convince developers to make more expensive panderfests and keep the hypersexualization out of the more mainstream titles.

Or keep having games like mgsv and offer more aaa stealth games without so everyone has a choice

I don't think either opinion is less valid. I'll be fine with whatever direction the industry takes but I'm not going to hide what I enjoy
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
OK, but I enjoy sexualization and also big budget AAA games

I don't want the only place you can get designs like Cindy or quiet to be in weird quirky games like Senran kagura. I don't even like beat em ups to be honest
Just how bloody starved are you for visual stimulation that even the massive, unending reams of pornographic content on the Interwebz isn't enough for you?

Serious question. I can't understand it. Do you really need it shoved into everything you consume?
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
It's strange how the focus of the Nintendo thread was on changing existing IPs rather than about creating new ones. Why is this always the case with representation? It clearly failed the comics industry.
What's strange about it? Your posts really are hard to follow since you don't put your opinion in them.

One user said a thing.

That doesn't seem at all strange to me.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Everyone seemed OK (and rightfully so) with Yoko taros explanation for 2b.
No they weren't. Not even close.

Sorry if this was broad up but is it ok to reveal skin (not to much) if its more for establishing female bad assery? Vanasha might be not great example since this design is in line with Karja environment and culture, its hot there and male have exposed skin too.
horizon-character-art-vanasha-armour-solo.jpg
Sure. As said before, it's not about exposed skin per se, though that can be a factor. But there is the gender-equality aspect (are males similarly dressed? yes), the pose and camera (are they focusing on her T&A? no), and of course what parts of skin are exposed or what body parts are emphasized (her T&A are entirely covered here and not even "enhanced" via boobplate or the like).

A lot of Carja folks, even hunters, have outfits with exposed mid-riffs (Nil is practically shirtless lol), because it's in a hot climate. They simply aren't sexualized at all.

Sure, I'm not saying you said it was sacrosanct. I'm saying it's not. And nothing really precludes having a different gender when the character literally changes every game. You don't like it, for whatever reason, okay. But many would enjoy it and see it as refreshing and interesting. There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it".
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Ask any random person (familiar with the series) who the three main characters of LoZ are and I doubt anyone's going to name Vaati. I already pointed out there were exceptions to the rule. I suppose I needed to put quotation marks around my use of "always" too. I am and have been talking about iconic usage of elements and characters. Those being things recognized as associated with and representative of something, those three characters are it and they go together. I am not saying that is what makes them sacrosanct. I am saying that is what makes them iconic. I am then saying an iconic character is a type of established character, even if technically that character is a reborn version of that character in most of the games. Link is always still recognizably Link, as are Zelda and Ganon. They never need to be reintroduce to people who have met them at least once.

To head the next argument off at the pass I hope, this is in no way, shape, or form, interpreted as an argument against Link being female. This is separate from that. I am only trying to establish why these three characters are iconic characters, and why iconic characters are also established characters, regardless of a reincarnation factor. It comes down to recognition.
Link is an iconic character, but not an established one. He's a different person in every game with only tenuous connections to other ones. Moreover, since it perfectly possible to make a Zelda game without "representative" character, it just tells us that any of the "can't be done in a different way" excuses are just weak ones.

Or keep having games like mgsv and offer more aaa stealth games without so everyone has a choice

I don't think either opinion is less valid. I'll be fine with whatever direction the industry takes but I'm not going to hide what I enjoy
Putting problematic material everywhere is the opposite of giving everyone a chance. All it does is to turn off people who would be otherwise interested in a particular game. Even if you really like skimpy outfits, you don't need it in absolutely every game; there are already tons of them out there to cater to your interests.
 
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