Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,082
Yeah, all those non attractive women in American media. Christ. It's racist. Sorry if that offends your feels.
Its not that American media doesn't have attractive women. Its the subject matter and what is allowed to be shown on these shows that still exist in Southern American and Japanese TV. They actually used to show some of them on Spanish TV in the US in the 80s and 90s but they got rid of them or censored them in early 2000s because that shit doesn't fly here anymore but is still fine in other places of the world. And yes blackface is racist I know I get shocked when I randomly see an old movie and someone comes out in blackface or see those old comics with caricatures of black people.
 

hashtagrekt

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
685
Hard to believe all these supposedly ignorant people from Japan, Europe, Mexico and wherever else consume so much American media and understand certain things about our cultures but don't understand other parts. Seems very disingenuous. Y'all know very well what's not cool, don't hide behind "I'm not american tee hee, I don't understand"

these assholes just want to keep doing the same shit they've been doing it, and defending it subtly

What..? To paraphrase something a Japanese twitter user said, what does anything in America have to do with Japanese tv produced for Japanese people? The idea that American standards of what is offensive or not have to be applied to other nations is absurd, no? This was not a product packaged for international consumption. It is Japanese comedy for a Japanese audience. I fully admit that the writers of the show did not think of the .000000001% of people that may not be Japanese and may be offended. They didn't think of me, a black foreigner in Japan, or even native Japanese with black heritage. Because it isn't something they would think of. And they especially wouldn't think of, or care, that it may be offensive in some other corner of the globe.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,805
Canada
Someone please educate me here. My understanding of why blackface is offensive is because of the history involved with it in the US (ie slavery, lampooning black people afterwards, generations of oppression, etc.)

But if Japan has a completely different historical context, why is it still offensive if it's not used in an offensive manner (westerners taping eyes back being an offensive example)?
Someone skin and features isn't a costume. It doesn't matter if they don't have the same history. It's insulting.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,194
What are you talking about?

What are you having trouble understanding?

You said the intent is the same between White Chicks and a blackface minstrel show. I was trying to demonstrate that it isn't, because the intent of blackface minstrel shows were not merely to demean, but to justify the white supremacist attitudes that they grew out of.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
The OP doesn't say, but is there a protest within Japan itself?

As usual, this is foreigners complaining.
I haven't seen any arguments on the japan side yet.

Given that Japan is an isolationist country, nobody is going to listen to what people here have to say. They don't care about what foreigners think about their culture.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,752
Imperialism? Are you responding to the wrong person? Or are you doing that strawman thing?
I apologize, I was relating to this thing that YellowMoose burped into the thread and failed to quote him. Sorry for the confusion.

And how is your source any different than using the Twitter link from the OP to imply that there's a real backlash against blackface in Japan? The controversy over the yellowface in Cloud Atlas was a minor blip in the conversation, I remember it. I remember it because whenever I brought it up I was talked over and shut down.
Mostly because I measured the response against the general reaction to the film (most people ignored it) so I didn't ascribe the majority opinion as a cosign on yellowface. We clearly don't see eye to eye here and that's fine.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
As usual, this is foreigners complaining.
I haven't seen any arguments on the japan side yet.

Given that Japan is an isolationist country, nobody is going to listen to what people here have to say. They don't care about what foreigners think about their culture.
Kojima made a tweet complaining about it, but deleted it.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,639
It adds to the illusion. And I don't want to use racial caricatures, I want to use that person specific features.
well you probably need to share features or have them inherent if you're not going to be caricaturizing them racially via artificial or false means. You may have set up the impossible task for yourself.

for whatever reason...

My cosplay is ruined
well...you know.
maybe blackface cosplay with big huge black plastic noses and afro wigs isn't such a great idea?
 

Zero315

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,224
Not enough to prevent the film from receiving awards, and not enough to prevent people here and back on GAF from trying to justify the act because of "artistic integrity."

Regardless, I'm not trying to derail the conversation. I was initially responding to someone who brought up yellowface in the first place.
There was definitely a backlash against the movie, and they still give awards to fucking Roman Polanski, so awards aren't great for judging weather or not something was controversial. People are also going to argue artistic integrity for anything, just look at any thread about controversial comedy.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,194
It's also kind of weird how whenever this happens it's apparently done as a tribute to black culture but the people who it's a tribute to telling you to stop doesn't seem to shake anyone.
 

khaz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
274
User Has Been Banned (4 Days) For: Blatant trolling and disingenuous arguments in support of blackface.
Someone skin and features isn't a costume. It doesn't matter if they don't have the same history. It's insulting.

All those marylin monroe and elvis impersonator are disgusting. They shouldn't try to mimic the skin and body features of their idol, how dare they mock them.
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
It's also kind of weird how whenever this happens it's apparently done as a tribute to black culture but the people who it's a tribute to telling you to stop doesn't seem to shake anyone.
It's basically "just smile and nod."

All those marylin monroe and elvis impersonator are disgusting. They shouldn't try to mimic the skin and body features of their idol, how dare they mock them.

Do you sincerely have no context for the history of white colonialism?
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Of course I did. Are you going to now tell me how I should be ok with being grossly caricatured because it was in the service of a spiritual theme?

There's 100% a chance I missed things. What elements did you feel were grossly caricatured? If you read the book do you think there were changes to the movie adaptation that further empathised those characteristics?
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,759
What..? To paraphrase something a Japanese twitter user said, what does anything in America have to do with Japanese tv produced for Japanese people? The idea that American standards of what is offensive or not have to be applied to other nations is absurd, no? This was not a product packaged for international consumption. It is Japanese comedy for a Japanese audience. I fully admit that the writers of the show did not think of the .000000001% of people that may not be Japanese and may be offended. They didn't think of me, a black foreigner in Japan, or even native Japanese with black heritage. Because it isn't something they would think of. And they especially wouldn't think of, or care, that it may be offensive in some other corner of the globe.

I don't believe these people don't understand that it's not cool. I believe they just think it is cool, because they don't want to change their culture, not because the idea that painting your skin color to imitate dark skin people isn't cool to the vast majority of people they're trying to imitate

Like you said, they didn't think of you but the certainly know you fucking exist don't they? That's why they painted their faces in the first place
 

khaz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
274
I figured your "questions" were disingenuous bullshit.

No, my questions were to try to stir you to make the distinction between impersonation and blackface. Because that's two VERY different things, and resuming impersonation to "putting shoe polish on your skin" is ridiculous.

The intent, guys, the intent.
 

Hypron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,059
NZ
I mentioned it before but even if blackface was only a US thing:

Blackface is considered racist towards black people in the US.
That guy is blackfacing as Eddie Murphy, a Black American actor.

How the fuck is that anything other than extremely disrespectful? 'Yeah I'm gonna dress up as you in a manner that you find extremely offensive but it's all good cause I'm from another country'
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
No, my questions were to try to stir you to make the distinction between impersonation and blackface. Because that's two VERY different things, and resuming impersonation to "putting shoe polish on your skin" is ridiculous.

The intent, guys, the intent.
BLACKFACE ISN'T OKAY.

Point fucking blank. If you are NOT black, do not color your skin to appear black or impersonate someone who is black. Ever. It's disrespectful, 100% of the time.

Case.

Fucking.

Closed.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,194
To paraphrase something a Japanese twitter user said, what does anything in America have to do with Japanese tv produced for Japanese people?

A Japanese TV programme has sparked accusations of racism and cultural insensitivity after a comedian painted his face to impersonate Eddie Murphy.

The New Year's Eve show featured celebrity comic Hamada appearing in a Beverly Hills Cop skit with his face blacked up.

Am I seriously the only one seeing this...? This is not some hundred year old Japanese tradition being exposed to outside culture for the first time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
I mean, it just completely invalidates your "only foreigners are complaining" BS.

I honestly consider people like Hideo Kojima an exception

He's a pretty well-known so-called "westaboo" in Japanese culture, so people like him are honestly paying attention to what westerners have to say. The far majority of people in Japan aren't like him.

The word "nobody" was hyperbole, but people of Kojima's mindset in japan are rare and not indicative of some kind of social movement in Japan to care about what foreigners have to say.
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
No, my questions were to try to stir you to make the distinction between impersonation and blackface. Because that's two VERY different things, and resuming impersonation to "putting shoe polish on your skin" is ridiculous.

The intent, guys, the intent.
So disingenuous bullshit. You weren't asking because it was something you were actually ignorant about, you were trying to make a sillyass point.
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,920
Switzerland
Hard to believe all these supposedly ignorant people from Japan, Europe, Mexico and wherever else consume so much American media and understand certain things about our cultures but don't understand other parts. Seems very disingenuous. Y'all know very well what's not cool, don't hide behind "I'm not american tee hee, I don't understand"

these assholes just want to keep doing the same shit they've been doing it, and defending it subtly

I mean to be fair, a lot of people doesn't inform themselves about other cultures, or what happens in other countries... You don't learn about blackface by watching action flick or marvel movies... even on the internet, a lot simply doesn't speak english and don't see these issues come up, it's literally ignorance... a lot of them don't mean harm! Sometime they'll see and aplogize, sometime they'll keep saying it's okay by burying their head in the sand..

i didn't knew blackface was such a problem until recently, like maybe 1-2 years ago... learned about it on gaf...
 

hashtagrekt

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
685
I don't believe these people don't understand that it's not cool. I believe they just think it is cool, because they don't want to change their culture, not because the idea that painting your skin color to imitate dark skin people isn't cool to the vast majority of people they're trying to imitate

Like you said, they didn't think of you but the certainly know you fucking exist don't they? That's why they painted their faces in the first place
The idea of it being racist doesn't exist. Not anywhere to the degree it does in other parts of the world. I'll admit I'm biased having lived here for decades and raising a family here. At this point I simply see things how they do because it's natural to adapt. If they never imitated a black person again in media nothing would be lost. No complaints here. The only thing I try to bring light to is the fact that this isn't done out of some disregard for the rest of the world or some blatant ignorance just for the sake of it. Within the context of that comedy show, along with the theme, along with that specific comedian, it was, in my opinion, completely in good spirits and intention. Others are free to disagree, but doing so without any knowledge of Japan's own complicated culture and thought processes should not be done, and especially not by applying some other nation's beliefs.

Yeah, outside of Japanese versions of foreign news orgs like HuffPost or BBC, the Twittersphere, and the various matome blog sites, you're not going to see much discussion about it or really many other social issues, honestly.
Watching Zip! now on tv.... nothing! Shocker!
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
The "They don't have a history of it" (which is false) argument isn't even needed. A normal person should be able to look at what these people did and think "Would I be offended if someone in America that was not Asian/Japanese applied a racial caricature of my people for comedy?". The answer is probably going to be a resounding yes. Mickey Rooney's characterization of a Japanese man was racist.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,527
No, my questions were to try to stir you to make the distinction between impersonation and blackface. Because that's two VERY different things, and resuming impersonation to "putting shoe polish on your skin" is ridiculous.

The intent, guys, the intent.

Fuck your intent. You know the rules, we've explained them. You can try your coy shit all you like, but we know what you are when you fail to listen and regurgitate the same points.
 

YellowMoose

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
177
What are you having trouble understanding?

You said the intent is the same between White Chicks and a blackface minstrel show. I was trying to demonstrate that it isn't, because the intent of blackface minstrel shows were not merely to demean, but to justify the white supremacist attitudes that they grew out of.
I didn't read the last paragraph, my bad.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,590
All those marylin monroe and elvis impersonator are disgusting. They shouldn't try to mimic the skin and body features of their idol, how dare they mock them.

I saw right through it from the start, but many users gave you the benefit of the doubt and answered your dismissive questions respectfully.

If you still have nothing to add but dismissal on such a sensitive and important matter, it would be better if you left the thread. It comes off as rude and immature.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
I was watching this live.

I have to admit, my immediate reaction was laughter because I was expecting him to come out of the dressing room in a skirt or with the bowl haircut wig they usually have him wear, not discount Axel Foley. The weirdest part was they didn't even have him mimic Eddie Murphy, just had him in the blackface for a few hours.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Importing American media representations of black people + them not studying American history + having barely any black people in Japan leads to things like this.

Rather than "fuck you!" the response should be telling Japanese people why these sorts of things aren't okay in America and other countries. Directly. Not expecting them to research the topic on their own. It's kind of ethnocentric to expect all Japanese people to know about American racial taboos when it's not a part of their culture. Japanese people don't care nearly as much about America as Americans assume they do, so when people ask "how could Japanese people not know that this is not okay from an American perspective!?" the answer is: quite easily. They didn't even think about the implications, because they don't know the implications and don't ever have to think about them in their lives. Sort of like how most Americans don't ever really have to think about Japanese people and casually call them all pervert pedophiles because they saw an internet article about it or their older brother's friend had one of those japanimation tentacle cartoons. Or like how a young American asshole went over and videotaped the corpse of a Japanese person and put it online, despite the fact that he would never have done that if he had found an American's corpse in the forest.

We all need to work on seeing each other as real people, and not just caricatures, in order to avoid these sorts of cross-cultural outrage.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,759
I mentioned it before but even if blackface was only a US thing:

Blackface is considered racist towards black people in the US.
That guy is blackfacing as Eddy Murphy, a Black American actor.

How the fuck is that anything other than extremely disrespectful? 'Yeah I'm gonna dress up as you in a manner that you find extremely offensive but it's all good cause I'm from another country'

because they actually don't care about the people they supposedly intend to honor, if they did, they'd respect with actual respect
 

hashtagrekt

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
685
The "They don't have a history of it" (which is false) argument isn't even needed. A normal person should be able to look at what these people did and think "Would I be offended if someone in America that was not Asian/Japanese applied a racial caricature of my people for comedy?". The answer is probably going to be a resounding yes. Mickey Rooney's characterization of a Japanese man was racist.
That is because America has racism at the core of its society. Racism is literally on the minds of people 24/7. It is ingrained in people. Racism exists in Japan, but it is not a social or cultural topic the way it is in the west. It is just not. It just doesn't come up. Not because it is suppressed or ignored, but because it just isn't something that is important here. The reasons why are obvious. Any time any white person in the west does anything related to race it will always be construed a certain way. It is not unfathomable to think that that's not how it is in other parts of the world.

Again, I would be happy if no one ever impersonated a black person again with makeup. You have my sword. I just don't think trying to imperial with what constitutes offensive is a smart thing to do.

I was watching this live.

I have to admit, my immediate reaction was laughter because I was expecting him to come out of the dressing room in a skirt or with the bowl haircut wig they usually have him wear, not discount Axel Foley. The weirdest part was they didn't even have him mimic Eddie Murphy, just had him in the blackface for a few hours.
The point this year was he was meant to crack up and disrupt the other guests coming to make them laugh, as they didn't know he'd be like that either.
 

khaz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
274
BLACKFACE ISN'T OKAY.

Point fucking blank. If you are NOT black, do not color your skin to appear black or impersonate someone who is black. Ever. It's disrespectful, 100% of the time.

BLACKFACE IS NEVER OK!

I fucking know that. Blackface, painting tour skin black to mock people of african origin is never ok. mocking an entire group of people with some assumed, imaginary or exaggerated attributes is not ok. of fucking course.

impersonating someone is not mocking them, having fun of their feature or try to imply a racial inequality. It's showing your love for the person.



And, back to my initial point, I can only impersonate people of my own ethnicity. So only white dudes can dress as their idol Elvis Presley, and only black people can impersonate their idol eddy murphy.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
BLACKFACE IS NEVER OK!

I fucking know that. Blackface, painting tour skin black to mock people of african origin is never ok. mocking an entire group of people with some assumed, imaginary or exaggerated attributes is not ok. of fucking course.

impersonating someone is not mocking them, having fun of their feature or try to imply a racial inequality. It's showing your love for the person.



And, back to my initial point, I can only impersonate people of my own ethnicity. So only white dudes can dress as their idol Elvis Presley, and only black people can impersonate their idol eddy murphy.
You are a disingenuous troll, and I'm reporting you.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
That is because America has racism at the core of its society. Racism is literally on the minds of people 24/7. It is ingrained in people. Racism exists in Japan, but it is not a social or cultural topic the way it is in the west. It is just not. It just doesn't come up. Not because it is suppressed or ignored, but because it just isn't something that is important here. The reasons why are obvious. Any time any white person in the west does anything related to race it will always be construed a certain way. It is not unfathomable to think that that's not how it is in other parts of the world.

Again, I would be happy if no one ever impersonated a black person again with makeup. You have my sword. I just don't think trying to imperial with what constitutes offensive is a smart thing to do.


The point this year was he was meant to crack up and disrupt the other guests coming to make them laugh, as they didn't know he'd be like that either.

Yeah, I didn't need the joke explained to me
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
94,453
I was watching this live.

I have to admit, my immediate reaction was laughter because I was expecting him to come out of the dressing room in a skirt or with the bowl haircut wig they usually have him wear, not discount Axel Foley. The weirdest part was they didn't even have him mimic Eddie Murphy, just had him in the blackface for a few hours.
Did he do the laugh?
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
That is because America has racism at the core of its society. Racism is literally on the minds of people 24/7. It is ingrained in people. Racism exists in Japan, but it is not a social or cultural topic the way it is in the west. It is just not. It just doesn't come up. Not because it is suppressed or ignored, but because it just isn't something that is important here. The reasons why are obvious. Any time any white person in the west does anything related to race it will always be construed a certain way. It is not unfathomable to think that that's not how it is in other parts of the world.

Again, I would be happy if no one ever impersonated a black person again with makeup. You have my sword. I just don't think trying to imperial with what constitutes offensive is a smart thing to do.
Japan even has a long time problem with being prejudice against other Asian people. Imperial Japan was based on the thought that they were superior to all other Asian people.