Good thing it exists then, as long as it is respectful and constructive, I think we should be able to complain about moderation and criticize it, unless anyone wants this to become some sort of dictatorship.
We need a better way to argue in controversial, serious, sensitive topics.
- Thread starter Speevy
- Start date
- Status
Of course there is merit to it to make their points more clear, or get feedback on what you understand from their point, but most of the time it's just used as an disingenuous rhetoric to simply discredit someone in bad faith, get them riled up and to get them to defend themselves and basically forcing them to distance themselves from their "alleged" point they didn't even make, because if they don't distance themselves, everyone simply aligns that point (or an altered variation) with the poster, despite never actually making it. It also puts the poster in a defensive position, no matter what and stops the discussion from developing in most scenarios.
In this topic we have many suggestions and guidelines as to what a better discussion should look like, but many of these don't actually want discussion. Just like I initially wrote in this topic, they want their opinion validated and echoed, instead of challenged or even just seeing an opinion that is divergent to theirs and all the people demanding more and stricter bans just really emphasize that kind of thinking. It's only human to react that way, but it doesn't make for a good discussion foundation.
Stating this forum is anti-white is as clear trolling as you can get. None of the rules or registration for this site says you need to be a certain skin colour to sign up.
People came for a show. Let's talk about what's really going on here.
Discussion, that's all.
Like I said it can be seen as disrespectful because you doubt the accuser. The thing is that there are sceptic people out there, not everyone is the same - that's what I'm trying to say since the first post.
If one person can post "I've always knew that X was a piece of shit and hope X rots in hell" why can't another post "Let's see what comes out of this"? - especially when the second one actually can evolve into a discussion.
I've seen good discussions around this but most evolve into disrespecting the user that doubts just because he/she is sceptic.
Great post and I agree. People should be considerate about what they post but you shouldn't treat another user like shit just because of that. There are polite ways to do that and there's no need to ban them because of their opinion. Opinions shouldn't be bannable when in a respectful way.
Discussions are ok. Inflammatory posts and disrespecting users for different opinions isn't.
I actually like the moderation and warning system on this forum. Bans only get long when the person keeps fucking up. Pretty transparent to me. And on the whole, look at the rest of the internet, this place is actually pretty damn intelligent when it comes to discussion and being thoughtful of other people. I mean, most of the internet is the real trash.
You say that as though you have never heard people who genuinely believe these things.
Nothing about that post sounded like the user didn't honestly believe the bullshit they're spewing. Nothing about it isn't something I haven't heard in real life.
Disingenuous and painfully, idiotically wrong are not the same thing.
Saying that discussions about sexism are scaring women away from tech fields is egregiously disrespectful and insulting, regardless of it's window dressing. Those words mean a lot to actual real people and the notion that it's some matter of dry academia that perhaps has merit is one of privilege. It's more than an internet argument for people and his words are damaging.
All I know is I'm glad I'm not a mod.
It might help to have some "master" threads to link to that clearly and effectively refute most of the common ignorant arguements (without being condescending) so they can be quickly linked to after a user is warned. It's frustrating to me when I see those posts because I know their position is wrong and has been refuted hundreds of times over, but I don't have the information readily available and it feels like too much work to write a research paper in response to one asshole. But maybe if we all chip in (and by "we" I mwill an the women and minorities, not me) and set up these resources it would help? I dunno.
The negativity has carried over from NeoGAF
The OT used to be an amazing place with tons of topics of different subjects where you could learn about stuff or laugh at wacky antics. Eventually it was taken over by politics, racial issues, fast food threads and endless Disney Entertainement Products (tm) threads.
ResetERA was positive for about a week, then it's back to exactly the same song and routine. The etcetEra should be renamed at "COME GET PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS LATEST EVENT WITH US" at this point
I think we really need a separate sections for politics and horrible news. It is obvious that the negativity is a source of anxiety for many posters and makes this side of the forum 100% toxic. Some of us come to the internet to relax and forget about real life.
The OT used to be a place to have fun, it eventually turned into a receptacle for anger .
EtcetERA is morphing into something like that, but I feel it's getting more aggressive.
The moderation team has to stop avoiding the issue and pretending that the current situation is not problematic. The moderation team has to consider that many users on this forum have to deal with depression and other illness and that the overall negativity is not helping them AT ALL.
We need sub forums to contain certain dangerous topics.
The time to act has come now, unless you want this place to turn into NeoGaf 2.0
The OT used to be an amazing place with tons of topics of different subjects where you could learn about stuff or laugh at wacky antics. Eventually it was taken over by politics, racial issues, fast food threads and endless Disney Entertainement Products (tm) threads.
ResetERA was positive for about a week, then it's back to exactly the same song and routine. The etcetEra should be renamed at "COME GET PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS LATEST EVENT WITH US" at this point
I think we really need a separate sections for politics and horrible news. It is obvious that the negativity is a source of anxiety for many posters and makes this side of the forum 100% toxic. Some of us come to the internet to relax and forget about real life.
The OT used to be a place to have fun, it eventually turned into a receptacle for anger .
EtcetERA is morphing into something like that, but I feel it's getting more aggressive.
The moderation team has to stop avoiding the issue and pretending that the current situation is not problematic. The moderation team has to consider that many users on this forum have to deal with depression and other illness and that the overall negativity is not helping them AT ALL.
We need sub forums to contain certain dangerous topics.
The time to act has come now, unless you want this place to turn into NeoGaf 2.0
Last edited:
I agree. I'm just stating what my initial reaction was to try to explain.
I don't use the phrase "arguing in good faith" myself, but I think that post fits the descriptor to a tee. Maybe they believe whatever they say, who knows, but it's clearly either trolling or bullshit to come into a topic like this and drop that post. Mods dealt with it after it was either reported or seen quoted 15 times. I reported it.
One thing this site has that GAF doesn't is a report button, rather than having to PM mods.
Which brings up another problem?
Like I really don't want to question mods' reasoning but why a just week? Why not permanent? If he's a blatant troll like you said, I doubt he's gonna reconsider the error of his ways.
I'll debate it, got any data/proof to back up your claims that make them irrefutable?
What I see is a really well moderated community(especially compared to others on the internet) that bans people when they act out of line. It isnt perfect(nothing is) and can always be improved and hopefully will as the mod team expands.
It's not really veiled, general discussion about it is implied in the very nature of the thread. It's been allowed and it's needed, hasn't been personal and has been largely respectful toward the moderation team. So?
Actually it's funny because that already exists and there's options here to ignore what you want. There are already separate community sub-forums to enter and talk about hobbies or other stuff. Also there's the ignore button to just not read a thread. Or ignore anything you dislike. Yeah, I was being sarcastic with that message you quoted and see how many people dogpile.
And no, it's not echo chamber when there's threads derailing up and down because of dogpiling or making assumptions, and I'm talking about both sides.
This is the wrong way to go. The carefree wonderful existence you speak of only exists when people dont have to be worried about their livelihoods and governments. I WILL NOT support removing these facts and putting them in a sub-bubble people can easily ignore.
So do people just not get that people are gonna fucking talk about what's going on in the world
Not every thread is gonna be people laughing at inept dumbasses who can't wipe their ass
Like shit I don't click on every Trump thread bc I don't care
Is it difficult for you not to click? Are you that fucking troubled?
Not every thread is gonna be people laughing at inept dumbasses who can't wipe their ass
Like shit I don't click on every Trump thread bc I don't care
Is it difficult for you not to click? Are you that fucking troubled?
That's actually the purpose of the warning system. It's to warn you about flawed argumentation and give you a chance to improve. It's not a personal condemnation of you. It's a condemnation of how the post comes across and how it can be problematic. It's ultimately up to the user to take the warning to heart though and some don't. Certain types of arguments should and do get you banned immediately. Downplaying racism/sexism/sexual assault/homophobia/transphobia consistently across multiple posts will get you an immediate ban.
I agree. I thought more transparency is one of the points this forum was built on (see:warnings and ban messages).
Being unable to criticise moderation (especially in a young forum like this) seems ridiculous to me.
Of course, it should have a rather more centralised and controlled space so it doesn't derail onto people having posts complaining about bans everywhere. I think specifically this thread is not supposed to have those complaints, but I think it ought to, or a new thread opened for that.
At least one person was brave enough to actually say what they feel instead this vague "certain opinions" nonsense.
What does hidding the threads YOU don't like accomplish?
If you don't like it, simply ignore the threads, there's still a lot of variety in Etceta, but you can't say simply "move these threads away" when people want to discuss them, especially people that is affected by them.
If certains discussions enables negativity (highly debatable, I personally disagree) just moving them to another subforum would have no effect anyways.
Maybe someone looked at their post history, or it's a known poster, I don't know. I've never spoken to that poster before. As for mods decision making, I think some of them don't want this forum to be as permanent ban trigger happy as GAF (for some things). Either way, if that poster comes back and posts more nonsense I'm sure it'll quickly be a perm.
This is why my first post in this topic was satirising don't ever become a mod on a forum. No matter what you do, you will be questioned, demanded and hung out to dry. It's never good enough. Mods make mistakes and they are human. It's not easy babysitting 30,000+ grown adults throwing shit and arguing with each other 24/7.
edit: Isn't it the case some mods can only do 1/2 week bans max? Higher ups do perms?
Last edited:
Considering how toxic those type of threads become, It wouldn't be the worst idea.
I made a suggestion in the suggestions thread a while back, that even with reasoning and warnings, people still don't feel like they have any recourse to an 'unjust' action by a mod. The only way to deal with that and not end up with threads like this, is a hall of infamy thread. Any punitive action against a user should be posted with the reason and link to the offending post, in this thread for everyone to see. People can comment and discuss the issue there. Harder for anyone to claim unjust and more transparency for the site.
I remember lurking a thread where a gangmember who was like a YouTube guy or something was killed by the mafia, but when people pointed out he had likely hurt people or worse, because he was in a gang, and did something dumb to draw attention to himself,ml many were warned (and I think a ban or two) for victim blaming etc.
But it boils down to this site having the same issue as the old one and it's a 3 fold process:
1. Most of the Mods/Admins are lopsided on numerous topics making them far from neutral which is required for moderation.
2. Due to the above, the regular users that are biased become the main and sometimes only group in these topics when they come up in threads relating to them, creating a bubble that makes it hard to bring in different opinions in those threads without being hounded, banned, or your opinion/view dismissed.
3. This spreads through more and more topics with nothing stopping it until this issue becomes so large, across many topics, that now the forum as a whole becomes a bubble/hivemind for a significantly large portion of the site outside some safezones (and almost all are in gaming)
I mean I'm going to be honest here, When this site first opened up a quote from an admin was circulating on Twitter that had me scratching my head because their comment, as well as their profile, read like a joke, they were basically openly saying they would hunt people down and that they were super biased on certain topic. Which doesn't make much sense to me in regards of choosing someone to patrol a message board.
Then there's the fact you have to avoid long conversations because mods/admins won't read all the quotes so they'll go by the most recent one which can result in some flawed understandings as has been mentioned here.
Also people like to burn bridges in social threads. To the point they bring it up in threads that aren't social threads, making it hard to escape. Which details the thread to a different topic.
Social threads are basically agree or die situations which is why you see mostly the same groups of users post in them. But the big issue with these users is bringing the toxin to unrelated threads which then get taken over.
But it boils down to this site having the same issue as the old one and it's a 3 fold process:
1. Most of the Mods/Admins are lopsided on numerous topics making them far from neutral which is required for moderation.
2. Due to the above, the regular users that are biased become the main and sometimes only group in these topics when they come up in threads relating to them, creating a bubble that makes it hard to bring in different opinions in those threads without being hounded, banned, or your opinion/view dismissed.
3. This spreads through more and more topics with nothing stopping it until this issue becomes so large, across many topics, that now the forum as a whole becomes a bubble/hivemind for a significantly large portion of the site outside some safezones (and almost all are in gaming)
I mean I'm going to be honest here, When this site first opened up a quote from an admin was circulating on Twitter that had me scratching my head because their comment, as well as their profile, read like a joke, they were basically openly saying they would hunt people down and that they were super biased on certain topic. Which doesn't make much sense to me in regards of choosing someone to patrol a message board.
Then there's the fact you have to avoid long conversations because mods/admins won't read all the quotes so they'll go by the most recent one which can result in some flawed understandings as has been mentioned here.
Also people like to burn bridges in social threads. To the point they bring it up in threads that aren't social threads, making it hard to escape. Which details the thread to a different topic.
Social threads are basically agree or die situations which is why you see mostly the same groups of users post in them. But the big issue with these users is bringing the toxin to unrelated threads which then get taken over.
This idea about separating politics from general OT nonsense is stupid. You already have gaming side for dumbshit to talk about.
"let's see what comes out of this" isn't a discussion, it's a dismissal. It's a nicer way of saying "I don't have what I need to believe what the victim is saying". "let's wait and see" doesn't move a discussion. All you're saying is that you don't have the info you're satisfied with. That the victim's (and in most cases, multiple victims') act of speaking out isn't enough.
There is absolutely no point in creating a sub forum for politics.
I'm sorry you can't hide from the reality that the world isn't as nearly of a cheery place as you want it to be, and that slowly that reality is becoming more and more apparently to more and more people (or, as others have put it, people who always knew this as reality are finally getting others to believe them). And that ResetEra is providing a place for people to talk about it.
Politics are toxic because the person leading the charge in the US is toxic. Mr. Toxic Man goes away, I bet a fair bit of the "toxic" political threads you hate so much go away as well.
Until then though, sounds like you're going to have to deal with it.
Must be a nice privilege to have. Some of us don't get a choice. When hatred is constantly directed your way you tend to be far more wary of and in anticipation of it. Read a history book over the next week to learn how this happened. Of course you won't cause we both know you really don't give a shit. Lemme guess you say dumb shit like "Slavery is over, get over it!" Without understanding the underlying systemic consequences of Jim Crow.
Also, "Anti-white". Hmm, where do I hear that rhetoric most often from? Oh yea bitter bigots. Take this bullshit to reddit.
Yup.
You can make that argument, but you can't make that argument to me. I have responded to nearly everyone who has quoted me and everyone who has quoted me because I quoted them. It's how I post and it gets my point across. Either they'll clarify because they realize that they're coming off poorly or they'll double down. Either way, I have my objective laid out.
Sweet gentle words neither change minds nor win debates.
OP
OP
I don't think I've ever had a more popular discussion that wasn't just about listing things, so I'm pretty pleased with this.
I don't know if we've necessarily come up with the best solution for our problem though.
People keep talking about Neogaf like it's a secret that we all came from there. Coming from Neogaf doesn't mean we're incapable of making good posts.
I don't know if we've necessarily come up with the best solution for our problem though.
People keep talking about Neogaf like it's a secret that we all came from there. Coming from Neogaf doesn't mean we're incapable of making good posts.
There's already a politics OT where the discussion is civil and informed. If just seeing a thread about a political subject in Etcetera is just too much for you than use the thread hiding extension instead of lobbying for worse usability for everyone else
Funny thread. Just don't post here if you don't like it. Wow, what a revelation. Not every Internet forum needs to be molded for your personal preferences. I don't post on forums where the community supports racism and sexism, for example. It's so fresh to come here and see people warned for victim blaming, because that is all too common in a forum where the majority are anonymous males. If you think your argument should be heard, well people can and will counter you with evidence and if you don't like it then that's the beauty of a forum.
The funny thing is, most people online want and try to build a safe space of one sort or another. However, as soon as they reach that goal, it gets boring and they either seek out other places or turn on each other. It's really weird sometimes.
No it doesn't exist, what are you talking about?
I can still talk about politics or sexism in character designs or whatever in a video game thread. People have been complaining about that because they want an echo chamber to discuss games without letting others express their opinions. Even if I didn't always agree with it.
You say your post was sarcastic bait but I don't even know what you're trying to say.
Choosing to enter a discussion about Hiphop or the current political climate doesn't stop me from talking about those topics in video game threads so...
No. You can take an accusations serious without having an opinion... that's not dismissing the accusation, it's actually waiting for more info. Dismissing is the actual opposite.
Just because you don't take a side doesn't mean you're dismissing the victim.
But hey, that's ok. I don't agree with you but that's ok.
No, people have opinions and it has nothing to do with if they can enforce the rules without bias. Someone having an opinion does not mean their actions are biased.
And how many debates / minds do you think you have won or changed ?
I also want to point out that I believe mods have been fantastic here. Seems like some of you want people banned for having another opinion which is terrible. I love that someone can have a different opinion here as long as they engage in conversation and try to explain their view without being banned or warned. The only times it happens is when someone obviously does a drive by post or is blatantly excusing racism, sexism, etc. That's how it should be.
At the end of the day, the poster places stock in his wife's awareness and what he's heard from women in tech he knows, which are experiences I think any poster should be able to elucidate.
It's not just a tacky "my black friend has never been stopped by a cop so there's no racism"-type post.
we should give mod powers only to bots, that's the best idea ever.
OP
OP
I don't know. No one should ever let me make decisions about that kind of thing. I'm just saying...dude's got some stones.
- Status