Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Prinz Eugn said:

I remember, in 2007, jauntily walking across Valhalla, wishing I could sprint. I maintain that sprint makes perfect sense for big team scale games, but not for arena sized games (but I think it's impact can be minimized better than it is in 5, like making it not freakin' infinite).

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Are we going to have special ability tied to our Spartan depending on which gametype you're playing now? x)

I never felt I needed sprint on valhalla, unless playing Team Sniper, but this is more due to the sandbox allowing for people camping and fighting from long distance than the ability itself to move quickly around the map.

But again, I wouldn't mind base player speed being a bit higher than it is right now (I mean, on MCC).

Juan said:

Are we going to have special ability tied to our Spartan depending on which gametype you're playing now? x)

I never felt I needed sprint on valhalla, unless playing Team Sniper, but this is more due to the sandbox allowing for people camping and fighting from long distance than the ability itself to move quickly around the map.

But again, I wouldn't mind base player speed being a bit higher than it is right now (I mean, on MCC).

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Oh, I don't know what the best solution is. I just think if you're going to have tight arena maps and expansive vehicle maps in the same game you either need to have it mode-dependent, or make a compromise somewhere (i.e. no sprint in either and try to provide other movement options on larger maps, or deal with sprint on smaller maps).

In Halo 3, Bungie tried to help out movement in BTB with mancannons and Mongeese, but neither of those was really satisfying to me, especially the Mongeese. You still ended up spending a lot of time holding forward on the thumbstick and not much else.

I think there is an important distinction to make between 4 and 5 with sprint. 5 focuses the gameplay around it, everything from weapon functionality to environment is built with it. 4 just tacks it on. And that's not a bad thing, for SPV3 players who got hands on time with sprint, I think we did a good job showing how it CAN work even in an environment and game it was not built for. I liked what H4 was doing with it, I think a lot of the issues with it could have been fixed with some more restrictions on it, such as making it so that when you spawn it starts drained, adding in a visual meter, and finally increasing the rate of depletion.

H4/SPV3 method of it is adding it to augment existing aspects of the game. H5 builds the focus around it, much like Titanfall. H4/SPV3 wants you to use the abilities in brief bursts, H5 wants you to depend on it as a primary form of movement. Reach doesn't seem to know what it wants to do. It designs a slower game where you sort of need it, but then asks you to discard it too for other abilities.

Interestingly, H2 went the method of it augmenting the original aspects of the game, with ALL of it's planned "spartan/player abilities"

Besides sporting an improved graphical look, MC will get his hands on a new suit of armor, some "tools", and a few new moves. Check out the 'Characters' section of the Halo 2 gallery for a glimpse of the Chief's new look.

When things get hectic, the Chief can lower his gun and sprint at almost twice his normal speed. Before rushing into battle, MC can peek around corners and scope out the situation. When the action gets up close and personal, the Chief can string together melee attacks into devastating combos.

The Chief is sure to have a few other surprises up his sleeve so stay tuned for future updates.

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When you look at how these would work, you can just simply look at H1 and see how these would augment the original gameplay loops.

You can run to escape dangerous situations to prolong your life, but you can also use it for backtracking (I know this was explicitly stated at one point, with AOTCR coming to mind of having to take long walks to find things)
Wall peeking helps speed up the pace of the game (by making you not have to poke your whole body out, take damage, hide, recharge, and then attack) and allows more stealth.
Melee combos are a bit weird, I can't really get behind a more complicated melee system unless it was just going to be a visual change for added flair as a reward for say beating an elite to death.
Boarding allows you to use well times movement and clicks to save yourself from certain death.

Prinz Eugn said:

I remember, in 2007, jauntily walking across Valhalla, wishing I could sprint. I maintain that sprint makes perfect sense for big team scale games, but not for arena sized games (but I think it's impact can be minimized better than it is in 5, like making it not freakin' infinite).

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What if they just made it so that you are always sprinting, but still could shoot?

My guess is You were wishing you could cover ground faster. I doubt very much that you were wishing that you could put your gun down.

Trup1aya said:

What if they just made it so that you are always sprinting, but still could shoot.

My guess is You were wishing you could cover ground faster. I doubt very much that you were wishing that you could put your gun down.

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Yeah, thats basically how I felt. I can live with sprint but I would prefer it to go even more so along with all Spartan Abilities. Spartan Charge though really needs to either be drastically nerfed or simply removed.

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Madness said:

True, but a lot of that could have been ameliorated with a faster base movement speed. Keep in mind we had the Mongoose, and Warthogs on that map. Something I barely touch in Halo 4 or Halo 5. They had to make the Mongoose a mini-warthog just because of how useless it became with universal sprint. I used to always use the Mongoose to rush for weapons or flags in High Ground and Valhalla etc.

For me, I need Spartan Charge and Ground Pound and Hover gone for sure in the next game, classic scopes only (can tinker with this based on new designs but no shitty weapon in the middle of the screen please). I absolutely loathe Sprint but I don't see it being removed. I liked Clamber initially but I have found that jumping, skill jumping, grenade jumping have all become pretty useless since Clamber came so I could go either way on this. Maybe have an upward thrust that acts like a double jump instead, clamber does tie into the faster movement of the game.



If we don't keep it alive, no one else really will. #BurnBrightBurnBlue #RememberReach

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Forget Reach, that is where most issues began. Also something is inherently broken with Super Fiesta, everytime I play a match the other team is constantly getting Rocket Launchers, Gravity Hammers and Incineration canons, meanwhile I keep getting BR's, SMG's and Magnums. It always seems like it's rigged.




EDIT: Halo is mentioned.

Trup1aya said:

What if they just made it so that you are always sprinting, but still could shoot?

My guess is You were wishing you could cover ground faster. I doubt very much that you were wishing that you could put your gun down.

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There's something psychological about the audiovisual aspects of sprint though.

Swinging arms, heavy breathing sounds etc. make it feel like you're running faster.

jem said:

There's something psychological about the audiovisual aspects of sprint though.

Swinging arms, heavy breathing sounds etc. make it feel like you're running faster.

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Doesn't change though that Sprint does more harm than good, especially in regards to vehicle play and map design.

Cranster said:

Doesn't change though that Sprint does more harm than good, especially in regards to vehicle play and map design.

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Whilst that is somewhat debatable I can't really be bothered to go into the whole sprint argument right now.

My point is though that I feel like people too quickly dismiss lines such as "But a Spartan should be able to sprint".

Before you freak out, I agree, they shouldn't be designing the game around the lore. However, there is an argument to be made regarding how the game feels.

I've seen numerous posts on the internet praising H5 for being the first Halo to make the player actually feel like a Spartan. A lot of that is down to the audiovisual aspects of the game. That's what I think those who make the lore argument are actually trying to say and it is a genuine point.

When I go back to the original trilogy my initial feeling is always that they feel so slow compared to new Halo, despite the fact that the game/match pace is likely much faster. It's the subjective gameplay feel which is slow though. Part of that, imo, is down to the lack of sprint.

jem said:

There's something psychological about the audiovisual aspects of sprint though.

Swinging arms, heavy breathing sounds etc. make it feel like you're running faster.

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Again, from my pov, it does have this effect because you feel the need for going faster at first. DOOM 2016 has maps as big as the ones in Halo 5, but due to how fast you're moving, you never feel the need to use an ability giving you the opportunity to go faster.

Classic scopes, I'm not sure if it's just the art style that bothers me, lack of simplicity or a bit of both. I just want better clarity, not a unique fancy scope. The sights, inoffensive but overly busy for a Halo game, perhaps. It's a tough one because I do like the pistol but think the rest is whatever.

First thing first though, the weapons, are they going to trim those down, get more unique options and not doubling up with alien weapons? Anyone think some need to go or fine as is?

Juan said:

Again, from my pov, it does have this effect because you feel the need for going faster at first. DOOM 2016 has maps as big as the ones in Halo 5, but due to how fast you're moving, you never feel the need to use an ability giving you the opportunity to go faster.

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You're right, but I'd say that the speed of Doom is too fast for Halo.

jem said:

There's something psychological about the audiovisual aspects of sprint though.

Swinging arms, heavy breathing sounds etc. make it feel like you're running faster.

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You can do all of that without removing the ability to shoot and without nuetering lateral and backwards movement. All of that is just flourish.

Also widening the FOV from its current claustrophobic range would also make it feel like you are moving faster.

Also all of that feels less neccisary when base movement is actually quick. No one feels a psychological need to sprint when playing quake or Doom's SP.

At the end of the day, I seriously doubt any genuine effort cost-benefit analysis would determine that the phychological benefits of including the sprint mechanic was worth the myriad of gameplay and map design compromises it introduced.

Trup1aya said:

You can do all of that without removing the ability to shoot and without nuetering lateral and backwards movement. All of that is just flourish.

Also all of that feels less neccisary when base movement feels quick. No one feels a psychological need to sprint when playing quake or Doom's SP.

At the end of the day, I seriously doubt any genuine effort cost-benefit analysis would determine that the phychological benefits of including the sprint mechanic was worth the myriad of gameplay and map design compromises it introduced.

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I feel like Halo needs a slower base movement speed though to maintain that methodical feeling of a duel in the fire fights.

Up the base speed too much and things start feeling too frantic.

I should add that I'm very much being the devil's advocate right now. I'm neutral on sprint and I'd be absolutely fine if they removed it for H6.

jem said:

You're right, but I'd say that the speed of Doom is too fast for Halo.

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You are absolutely right. The speed of DOOM is good for DOOM because all weapons are mostly DPS big gun and it doesn't require as much methodical approach as Halo (even if it's possible, it's not the focus of the game).

There is actually a Battle Rifle in DOOM. It is the exact same as Halo 2 Demo (3 shot burst, zoomed is one shot). This weapon feels really great, but you can't have a 1v1 duel like Halo for two main reasons:

- Speed is way too fast, it's really hard (on console) to strafe and aim for/track the head
- Player 3D model are like a big ball where you can't really differentiate the head from the body, unlike Halo.

But I do think you can have a good compromise between the slow, methodical approach from Halo and an higher player base speed like DOOM, which remove the need for Sprint.

Or, why not giving some utility weapons (and not melee weapons like the Sword or the Hammer) a speed boost when using them (like 10%) so you actually feel you're moving faster, without damaging the overall game.

jesus this is like the worst blank shot I've ever seen...

http://xboxclips.com/BizzyBum/910115a2-8591-4e88-9336-2f47e9ab87fd

BizzyBum said:

jesus this is like the worst blank shot I've ever seen...

http://xboxclips.com/BizzyBum/910115a2-8591-4e88-9336-2f47e9ab87fd

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I don't get it, your snipershot clearly missed.

Cranster said:

I don't get it, your snipershot clearly missed.

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talking about the pistol battle after that

jem said:

I feel like Halo needs a slower base movement speed though to maintain that methodical feeling of a duel in the fire fights.

Up the base speed too much and things start feeling too frantic.

I should add that I'm very much being the devil's advocate right now. I'm neutral on sprint and I'd be absolutely fine if they removed it for H6.

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So what is the point of momentarily feeling fast, psychological, if you are just going to slow down to fight? It's almost like we are arbitrarily forcing players to cover over-large distances simply to justify this mechanic.

I don't have the settings in front of me, but I play customs with BMS bumped up and sprint reduced so that the two speeds are equal. It's eye opening how much better it feels.

The maps are designed for movement at sprint speed. the guns are tuned for shooting people who are moving at sprint speed, so this has no negative impact on the pacing of a duel- other than people are more likely to duel than to try and run away- and those who do try to escape fight as they retreat rather than tuck their tails.

It's so liberating to be able to make all the jumps while still keeping your eye on the action. Going back vanilla H5 feels like moving through quicksand.

BizzyBum said:

jesus this is like the worst blank shot I've ever seen...

http://xboxclips.com/BizzyBum/910115a2-8591-4e88-9336-2f47e9ab87fd

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Woah, what happened to your gunfight at the end? Did you shoot a "ghost bullet" like?

Also, I amazed by the distance your teammate covered with that Spartan Charge. O.o

Juan said:

Woah, what happened to your gunfight at the end? Did you shoot a "ghost bullet" like?

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You're acting like this is something new? Shit happens a lot, this time was just super blatant, though.

BizzyBum said:

You're acting like this is something new? Shit happens a lot, this time was just super blatant, though.

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Well, it's because it's actually new to me, I've never seen something like this before on Halo (Ghost bullets are a thing on Destiny 1, but never saw this on Halo). ^^

That being said, I didn't play Halo 5 since the tuning playlist (can't remember when it was tbh) and it was BR focused. Before that, I was actively avoiding any Pistol start playlist.

Any news on the X patch for MCC yet? Last I read they were going to do test pilot of it first, I wanna sign up for that. :)

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Madness said:

Lol, I meant #RememberReach as a way of saying remember Halo. Not remember the actual game Reach. Though I would love a remaster or better framerate and resolution ability to play the campaign.

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At this point, I believe the only things that aren't at the 60 fps point are ODST firefight and all of Reach.

Trup1aya said:

What if they just made it so that you are always sprinting, but still could shoot?

My guess is You were wishing you could cover ground faster. I doubt very much that you were wishing that you could put your gun down.

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I wish my BR shot plasma mortars too, doesn't make it a sensible mechanic.

If you increase infantry mobility, what do you do with suddenly less useful vehicles? Make them even faster? Then you'd have to rescale the map to compensate (so you can't get base to base in 6 seconds), and end up right back where you started. Sprint on bigger maps it lets you have spaces at the scale where vehicles are balanced and fun, but also not a total slog to traverse for infantry. Sprint is an artificial tradeoff between mobility and fighting ability, which I think makes particular sense for big team. It lets you give players some additional mobility, but at a known cost, so they aren't always doing it. They still have incentive to hop in a vehicle.

And remember artificial tradeoffs aren't inherently bad. Gameplay is also about what you can't do. Think about ammo and reloading. Why do you need to reload a bunch of bits? Well, because designers thing it adds interesting complexity to a game, since players have to think harder about when to shoot. Hell, a lot of early FPSs had zero reloading.

Honestly, I think making the pistol in H5 have a bottomless mag would be great.

It's a unique perk, it makes it more powerful without being op and it makes it less punishing without affecting the skill ceiling of the weapon in any way.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

Hmm, I don't think we'll get anywhere like this, so let's start over:

1. I'm not surprised sprint was added to Reach. From my perspective, it was only a matter of time before that was tested after years of "Why can't Spartans sprint?!" So it wasn't only about copying trends.
2. I guess I need you to explain what you mean by "change for the sake of change." Because to me that implies little thought was put into these design decisions and they only added sprint to copy CoD/"modern games." In one context you credit Bungie for not adding sprint in Halo 2 or 3, yet they were the ones who added sprint directly after the most successful Halo. So..? And "half the staff" leaving (assuming this is accurate) isn't really a good excuse if you're not willing to concede that 343 was facing significant hurdles of their own.

And on a slight tangent, do you think 343 coincidentally came up with Armor Abilities without knowing about Reach? Because your point of Halo 4's development starting before Reach's launch makes it seem like 343 had no idea about Reach, as if Bungie was working in a vacuum, and as if 2 years wasn't enough time to adopt elements of Reach anyway.

If we can form a baseline here, then I'll continue back to Halo 5.

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1. sprint was already tested. Prior to the launch of Halo 2 and 3. It was deemed to be no bueno. I'm also not "surprised" it was added to Reach, because The principle players who kept it out, those who were better versed with the ideology that informed the franchises gameplay decisons, had left the company.

2. What I mean by change for the sake of change is: change that is not intended to fix a flaw, improve a process or advance a proven concept. It's a change made for the sole purpose being different, often with a lack of regard for the negative side effects of these differences.

It's a massive fallacy to suggest that anyone who is against sprint is against change. We are just against changes that are negatively impact the various other systems that define the experience.

I do credit bungie for not including Sprint in H2 and 3. A lead designer has expressed that confidence in the strength of the base they built around Halo, emboldened them to focus on what made Halo gameplay unique instead of the design of other games.

I also blame bungie for adding Sprint to Halo Reach, but i also recognize that many key designers were gone, and replaced with people who were less partial towards prevailing ideologies.

I blame 343 for its audacity to literally strive to make Halo4 nearly unrecognizable as a halo game. The guy they first hired to lead the project ultimately felt that H4 was too traditional. Yes, they were a new studio, and as such would be less partial to the ideologies that guided halo- even moreso than Reach era Bungie. As such, the right thing to do would have been a conservative effort so that they can begin to understand why things were as they were, before they started experimenting.

With regards to Reach, I don't think there was a 'vacuum'. But i also don't think Reach was the 'foundation' of Halo4. Aside from the AA concept, H4 is about as different from Reach as it is from every other game in the series. 343 set out to Redefine halo. Everything from the control scheme, the progression system, matchmaking system, the killstreaks, the kill cams- you name it- it all points to the same inspiration.

Prinz Eugn said:

I wish my BR shot plasma mortars too, doesn't make it a sensible mechanic.

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I fail to see the correlation. What isn't
sensible about a supersoldier running at top speed and shooting at the same time? It's worked fine in 3 halo's and countless other games.

If you increase infantry mobility, what do you do with suddenly less useful vehicles? Make them even faster? Then you'd have to rescale the map to compensate (so you can't get base to base in 6 seconds), and end up right back where you started.

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I feel like you just argued against sprint. Lol.

Anyway. If the infinite Sprint we have now doesnt make vehicle useless currently, then how would allowing people to shoot why sprinting make vehicles useless? In both cases, players are moving at the exact same top speed. Why would This force larger maps or faster vehicles? The dynamic between infantry speed and vehicle speed hadn't changed. Vehicle's are still faster, more durable, and deal more damage.

Sprint on bigger maps it lets you have spaces at the scale where vehicles are balanced and fun, but also not a total slog to traverse for infantry. Sprint is an artificial tradeoff between mobility and fighting ability, which I think makes particular sense for big team. It lets you give players some additional mobility, but at a known cost, so they aren't always doing it. They still have incentive to hop in a vehicle.

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No one has ever explained by there's a NEED for a trade-off between traversal and mobility. And you haven't really explained how allowing people to shoot while moving at sprint speed would alter the scale of these maps. I don't see the problem with people always sprinting if the maps and weapons are scaled for that movement speed. I do see a problem with forcing people to move slower than the map and weapons are designed for.

And remember artificial tradeoffs aren't inherently bad. Gameplay is also about what you can't do. Think about ammo and reloading. Why do you need to reload a bunch of bits? Well, because designers thing it adds interesting complexity to a game, since players have to think harder about when to shoot. Hell, a lot of early FPSs had zero reloading.

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reloading is a means for differentiating weapons. ammunition facilitates map movement and resource management. These aren't vital concepts to a shooter, but they are core too Halo. That said, you don't NEED to have reloading in a shooter any more than you need Sprint. Halo, in fact, has several weapons that don't reload. Defer to what works best for your sandbox.

Karl2177 said:

Eh. It's pretty pointless arguing about which one is worse when they both fail to reach the bar. I've had issues where the enemy whiffs in front of me, but the damage is still applied and I get the physics impulse as well. It's probably time for a good discussion on sprint, but it's probably going to be too dominated by people's emotions (relating back to the first game they played, their favorite game, their preferred developer, etc.).

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I'm not really arguing which is worse, I'm just stating why I think SC was implemented.

But like you said, I see already that this discussion is too emotionally charged. Trup talking about logical fallacies in that I'm suggesting if you're against sprint then you're against change, when that's no where near what I'm saying lol.

Prinz Eugn said:

I remember, in 2007, jauntily walking across Valhalla, wishing I could sprint. I maintain that sprint makes perfect sense for big team scale games, but not for arena sized games (but I think it's impact can be minimized better than it is in 5, like making it not freakin' infinite).

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Right, many people were asking for sprint, so its inclusion wasn't "mandated" as Trup thinks I'm saying, it was just the developers giving fans (and themselves) what they wanted after years of asking. Then when we got it, the community transitioned to discussions on how to balance it. NOW though we're past those discussions. People either want it removed or kept, no discussions on how to further balance it because it's as good as it's gonna get.

Juan said:

I do get your arguments about the spartan abilities & cie being a thing in Halo 5 due to how Halo changed over the years and the video game market, and how people thought it would be a good fit to evolve Halo in its base traits

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Right.

It was mainly made for QoL improvements

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Right.

So, Far Cry 2 is now backward compatible. The game is available for 2,99€, so I bought it because I only played it once when I was a teenager and wanted to finally have the full experience.

But before starting the campaign, I wanted to try something else first: the map editor. And oh my god how I was shocked by it.

It's SO POWERFUL. It doesn't have brain and game logic for pure scripting, but I was impressed by how easy it is to create a map while having such a degree of freedom. It is, for me, way more powerful then the Halo 5 Forge was at launch, but way easier to handle than what 343 did with Halo 5 Forge, even with a controller.

You can change the base terrain, create roads, rivers, change texture, add vegetations, paint over the terrain to add road logic, so on and so one.

I'm beyond amazed by the tool I just tried for the first time in Far Cry 2. So powerful, so easy to understand and use. 343 should hire the people who worked on this, working with Tom French and the amazing forge team they already have, they could create the perfect map editor for Halo.

Trup1aya said:

I fail to see the correlation. What isn't sensible about a supersoldier running at top speed and shooting at the same time? It's worked fine in 3 halo's and countless other games.

I feel like you just argued against sprint. Lol.

Anyway. If the infinite Sprint we have now doesnt make vehicle useless currently, then how would allowing people to shoot why sprinting make vehicles useless? In both cases, players are moving at the exact same top speed. Why would This force larger maps or faster vehicles? The dynamic between infantry speed and vehicle speed hadn't changed. Vehicle's are still faster, more durable, and deal more damage.

No one has ever explained by there's a NEED for a trade-off between traversal and mobility. And you haven't really explained how allowing people to shoot while moving at sprint speed would alter the scale of these maps. I don't see the problem with people always sprinting if the maps and weapons are scaled for that movement speed. I do see a problem with forcing people to move slower than the map and weapons are designed for.

reloading is a means for differentiating weapons. ammunition facilitates map movement and resource management. These aren't vital concepts to a shooter, but they are core too Halo. That said, you don't NEED to have reloading in a shooter any more than you need Sprint. Halo, in fact, has several weapons that don't reload. Defer to what works best for your sandbox.

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I meant that it's a basic design choice whether you can do something, or not do something, or do something but have some cost or tradeoff attached. Like how reloading is a limitation on how much you can shoot.

Sprinting while shooting isn't sprinting; it's increasing the base movement speed (since why would you every not do it if there's no cost?). If you increase the base movement speed, you make the map functionally smaller, which you can compensate for by changing the map size. No problem there. The issue is that BTB maps also need to be scaled to fit vehicles, which are always larger, and almost always way faster than infantry. The increased speed/mobility over foot is usually an inherent part of their design, so vehicle speed is always pegged to be faster than whatever your foot speed is.

Since you are dealing with two fundamental scales of combat, infantry and vehicle, you end up with spaces better suited for one or the other. Spaces big enough for vehicle combat are always going to be awkwardly large for infantry, with the reverse true for small spaces. Sprint lets infantry move across those bigger spaces less awkwardly, but has that fundamental built-in cost that keeps it from being a true base movement speed that would otherwise require rescaling everything else to match.

Infinite sprint still has that inherent tradeoff in that you can't shoot (back) while moving at maximum speed. Now, if I were king of Halo 5 I would make it finite as fuck, and add more penalties on top of that, too.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

But like you said, I see already that this discussion is too emotionally charged. Trup talking about logical fallacies in that I'm suggesting if you're against sprint then you're against change, when that's no where near what I'm saying lol.

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Not really charged at all. You said

343 can't keep selling you the "same game" for $60+ (DLC and microtransactions included) without being criticized for not changing the formula. That's just not their business model

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when I asked why sprint was inevitable. The fallacy is that the markets expectation for variation between releases justifies sprint specifically. In defense of sprint, people often argue change=sprint / no sprint = no change. I'm not saying you've done it, It's just a common enough occurance in these talks that I brought it up.

Right, many people were asking for sprint, so its inclusion wasn't "mandated" as Trup thinks I'm saying, it was just the developers giving fans (and themselves) what they wanted after years of asking. Then when we got it, the community transitioned to discussions on how to balance it. NOW though we're past those discussions. People either want it removed or kept, no discussions on how to further balance it because it's as good as it's gonna get.

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I'm using term like a public mandate. If a politician runs primarily on Net Nuetrality, and then he wins the election in a landslide, we'd then say there is a public mandate for Net Nuetrality.

There was never such a pro-sprint movement in Halo. There were a vocal minority of fans asking for it. And a vocal minority of fans condemning the idea. I remember, actually being on the pro sprint side. The majority of fans didn't speak on it at all, except through their actions- They kept playing halo enough to make it the most popular game every year.despite multiple popular games having sprint.
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Juan said:

I'm beyond amazed by the tool I just tried for the first time in Far Cry 2. So powerful, so easy to understand and use. 343 should hire the people who worked on this, working with Tom French and the amazing forge team they already have, they could create the perfect map editor for Halo.

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I vaguely recall Far Cry Instincts had the map editor way back on the original Xbox, and it was pretty nifty with the terrain editing and seamless drop-in/out to test it.

FakEdit:

Juan said:

So, Far Cry 2 is now backward compatible. The game is available for 2,99€, so I bought it because I only played it once when I was a teenager and wanted to finally have the full experience.

But before starting the campaign, I wanted to try something else first: the map editor. And oh my god how I was shocked by it.

It's SO POWERFUL. It doesn't have brain and game logic for pure scripting, but I was impressed by how easy it is to create a map while having such a degree of freedom. It is, for me, way more powerful then the Halo 5 Forge was at launch, but way easier to handle than what 343 did with Halo 5 Forge, even with a controller.

You can change the base terrain, create roads, rivers, change texture, add vegetations, paint over the terrain to add road logic, so on and so one.

I'm beyond amazed by the tool I just tried for the first time in Far Cry 2. So powerful, so easy to understand and use. 343 should hire the people who worked on this, working with Tom French and the amazing forge team they already have, they could create the perfect map editor for Halo.

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Far Cry 1 and 2 were doing amazing things with their map editors. Stepping out from Halo 3's Forge to those games was a mind blowing experience. Never mind Reach/4/5.

Trup1aya said:

There was never such a pro-sprint movement in Halo. There were a vocal minority of fans asking for it. And a vocal minority of fans condemning the idea. I remember, actually being on the pro sprint side. The majority of fans didn't speak on it at all, except through their actions- They kept playing halo enough to make it the most popular game every year.despite multiple popular games having sprint.

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"A majority of the fans" obviously never speak on these things because they're the millions of people just playing the games on launch. It's hard to tell exactly why those same millions don't continue playing multiplayer like they used to, there's a lot to consider there outside of just sprint etc., we (the fans) just don't have all the data and discussion points they have.

Developers design games based on many things, taking into account what they want, what their community is vocal about (in this case years of people asking for sprint), and where they see the market going. Also take into consideration how they're a AAA studio expected to sell millions of copies.

I'm not arguing sprint or other Spartan Abilities being good for Halo; that's irrelevant. I'm just saying Halo 5's design makes perfect sense where it ended up. It's not some mystery how we got here. Whether or not you agree with their decisions is irrelevant to what I'm discussing.

i miss pistol fights and outgunning the other player :( .. "REVERSAL!"

Prinz Eugn said:

I meant that it's a basic design choice whether you can do something, or not do something, or do something but have some cost or tradeoff attached. Like how reloading is a limitation on how much you can shoot.

Sprinting while shooting isn't sprinting; it's increasing the base movement speed (since why would you every not do it if there's no cost?). If you increase the base movement speed, you make the map functionally smaller, which you can compensate for by changing the map size. No problem there. The issue is that BTB maps also need to be scaled to fit vehicles, which are always larger, and almost always way faster than infantry. The increased speed/mobility over foot is usually an inherent part of their design, so vehicle speed is always pegged to be faster than whatever your foot speed is.

Since you are dealing with two fundamental scales of combat, infantry and vehicle, you end up with spaces better suited for one or the other. Spaces big enough for vehicle combat are always going to be awkwardly large for infantry, with the reverse true for small spaces. Sprint lets infantry move across those bigger spaces less awkwardly, but has that fundamental built-in cost that keeps it from being a true base movement speed that would otherwise require rescaling everything else to match.

Infinite sprint still has that inherent tradeoff in that you can't shoot (back) while moving at maximum speed. Now, if I were king of Halo 5 I would make it finite as fuck, and add more penalties on top of that, too.

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I know where you are going with the ammo/reloading thing, I'm just expressing that arbitrary limitations, why not inherently bad, aren't inherently good or neccisary.

1) Being required to think about whether fast movement OR shooting is the correct play isn't inherently better than 2) being required to be good at fast moving WHILE shooting while making the correct play. Defer to what best for your particur sandbox.

With the scaling bit, Your losing me.

Let's say I make a map and it has spaces sized perfectly for Ghost usage. Running across these spaces feels like a slog, sprinting feels less so, but Ghost is the ideal mode of travel.

Now, I remove sprint, and make Run speed = sprint speed. The map is still functionally the same size it was when Sprint was an option. The Ghost is still the ideal mode of travel- Giving people the ability to shoot while moving at Sprint speed doesn't change that.

In the latter case, I'm essentially allowing people to shoot while sprinting. I don't see how this would impact a particular spaces viability for vehicles.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

"A majority of the fans" obviously never speak on these things because they're the millions of people just playing the games on launch. It's hard to tell exactly why those same millions don't continue playing multiplayer like they used to, there's a lot to consider there outside of just sprint etc., we (the fans) just don't have all the data and discussion points they have.

Developers design games based on many things, taking into account what they want, what their community is vocal about (in this case years of people asking for sprint), and where they see the market going. Also take into consideration how they're a AAA studio expected to sell millions of copies.

I'm not arguing sprint or other Spartan Abilities being good for Halo; that's irrelevant. I'm just saying Halo 5's design makes perfect sense where it ended up. It's not some mystery how we got here. Whether or not you agree with their decisions is irrelevant to what I'm discussing.

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It certainly ISNT a mystery how we got here. We veered of the road while staring at a hot babe, ended up changing drivers (to one that had a learners permit), he subsequently made a couple of wrong turns, and here we are.

Trup1aya said:

It certainly ISNT a mystery how we got here. We veered of the road while staring at a hot babe, ended up changing drivers (to one that had a learners permit), he subsequently made a couple of wrong turns, and here we are.

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They've been veering off the road since 2004. It's time to get back on track.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

They've been veering off the road since 2004. It's time to get back on track.

Spoiler

Combat Evolved 2

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Now you're talkin!

AlStrong said:

I vaguely recall Far Cry Instincts had the map editor way back on the original Xbox, and it was pretty nifty with the terrain editing and seamless drop-in/out to test it.

FakEdit:

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Don't forget the worst shooter I played on OG Xbox, Pariah.

fuchsdh said:

Don't forget the worst shooter I played on OG Xbox, Pariah.

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Holy shit I forgot that game existed

I had that game. xD I might still have it in a box somewhere; probably kept it because it was BC on 360. It wasn't great, but I don't think it was awful. Clearly not the biggest budget with a rather stock-Unreal2.x engine.

Maybe I'll check it out this weekend.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

I'm not really arguing which is worse, I'm just stating why I think SC was implemented.

But like you said, I see already that this discussion is too emotionally charged. Trup talking about logical fallacies in that I'm suggesting if you're against sprint then you're against change, when that's no where near what I'm saying lol.

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You know on one hand it sucked getting from one end of Valhalla or Blood Gulch to the other by foot. On the other hand the combination of abilities in sprint and melee or the lack of combinations in sprint and shooting meant that gameplay was altered and maps and sandboxes weren't changed enough to account for the changes.

Then again, I don't know if I can put a ton of effort into discussing this kind of stuff anymore. My philosophy on the franchise is to let it rest for a while and do some smaller stuff with existing assets. An ODST game taking place in the pre-Halo 4 era using the Halo 5 engine would be interesting. A tactics VR game using assets from Halo Wars (HD and 2) would be neat. But none of that will happen so I don't see much of a point in pushing for it.

Karl2177 said:

You know on one hand it sucked getting from one end of Valhalla or Blood Gulch to the other by foot. On the other hand the combination of abilities in sprint and melee or the lack of combinations in sprint and shooting meant that gameplay was altered and maps and sandboxes weren't changed enough to account for the changes.

Then again, I don't know if I can put a ton of effort into discussing this kind of stuff anymore. My philosophy on the franchise is to let it rest for a while and do some smaller stuff with existing assets. An ODST game taking place in the pre-Halo 4 era using the Halo 5 engine would be interesting. A tactics VR game using assets from Halo Wars (HD and 2) would be neat. But none of that will happen so I don't see much of a point in pushing for it.

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I think they should remove abilities from Arena, but keep them for warzone. They could even have them be "unlocks" or rewards to grind for in warzone.

Keep arena the way 3 was, and put a sprint "powerup" on the map like invis. This is imo, the only way everyone would be happy. Or as much as possible. They can still design the game with abilities in mind for warzone which is their big $ maker anyway.

Cant wait for CoD ads in my sidebar when i only visit the Halo Hangout

Cranster said:

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And last year word was Capacious.

People are really craving for Halo news to talk about haha.